GUILTY AZ - Six killed, 13 injured in shooting at Gabrielle Giffords event, 8 Jan 2011 - #1

[alwayslooking]

Might be related, but maybe not. What I found chilling were the comments on the article. "Log Cabin Republican' infers he was gay. Overall I found them disturbing. I wonder what is going on in Arizona? Could this have been a right wing militia hit?

Unfortunately, I know a lot about Arizona Militia's...and I can say almost 100% chance he is NOT with the Militia! He was too much of a loose canon, they are much more organized! Don't get me wrong, they are real nuts, but they would not let someone in to harm their organization like this young man!

 

[alwayslooking]

BBM: I believe all states have some sort of law regarding competence to stand trial. They have to, because the right to be "competent" when on trial is guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution, according to the U.S. Supreme Court.

But how competence is defined, and how it is determined, probably varies from state to state.

Most states still go by the standard of the M'Naghten rule!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M'Naghten_Rules

This being said is very hard to prove true insanity, look at Charlie Manson!

 

[alwayslooking]

Padua--I am the mother of fourteen children. Three born to my husband and me. Two adopted in infancy from Korea. And nine adopted domestically--all with myriad special needs. All but one are adults. My entire adult life has been dedicated to the issues of the prenatally substance exposed child, special education, adoption issues, post adoption supports and services, treatment for the sexually abused child, the eradication of child , crimes victims rights, and mental health care for children and the disabled. I'm an advocate, writer and a former lobbyist. I have a strong interest in the societal implications of crime and what leads a young person to commit a crime. I also happen to be a pacifist.

I hope that answers your question.

Thank God for people like you, our oldest son has 7 kids, 5 adopted most special needs, we adore all of our grandchildren and are doing special olympic's this year with our oldest Grandson....he was shaken at 4 mos old by his bio dad, my husband was a police officer that investiageted the crime, a few years later my husband was shot in the head! So when this child came up for adoption, my son felt it only natural to bring him into our family! Both Grandpa and grandson have left side brain injuries, front lobe damage, right side paralysis, slurred speech...they are wonderful together!

 

[BuzzieCat]

I saw that picture on TV for the first time tonight. The first thing that popped out of my mouth was that he looks like a villan in a bad Batman movie.

Me too.

Here's another header from Google. This one shows up as being on the Huffington Post. What am I missing? You open it and this phrase does not exist in the article. Is it being squelched, for some reason?

"ABC Exclusive: jared loughner's family money came from a settlement after he fell off the......"

Fell of the what? What settlement? Are we dealing with a young man with a serious head injury from childhood? According to Jared, he went on to attend other Tucson schools. If he'd been physically harmed on school property and even awarded a settlement, those schools would have made darn sure his needs were met, IMO.

The neighbors say that things changed at the Loughner house about 15 years ago. Well, Jared would have been in 1st or 2nd grade. Was he injured?

Can anyone help explain this? Just so I don't think I've lost my marbles in the morning:

From Google~
Jared Loughner Money Trail: Family's Lifestyle Aided By Settlement ...
Jan 11, 2011 ... Much of the money accused Tucson shooter Jared Loughner and his family had apparently came from a settlement with his elementary school ...
abcnews.go.com/US/jared-loughner-money-trail-familys.../story?id...

and

Jared Loughner Money Trail: Family's Lifestyle Aided By Settlement ...
Jan 11, 2011 ... Jared Lee Loughner's Family Sued School Over Playground Fall ... Friend Says Loughners Lived Off Settlement When Jared Fell From Playset ... had apparently came from a settlement with his elementary school after Loughner ...
abcnews.go.com/US/jared-loughner-money-trail-familys.../story?id...


Possibly it's a breaking story that has a headline but isn't quite ready for print yet. That's what happens when I stay up 'til 1:30 am.

It's 6 a.m. here now and I still can't find it. I see the "fell off play set" and "fell off monkey bars," but when I click on the links there's no mention of any accident and settlement in the story. Weird. Just speculation on my part, but I'm getting the feeling that he has had problems for a lot longer than just the last 4 years or so.

 

[alwayslooking]

This is a wonderful video!

[ame="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/41027471#41027471"]msnbc.com Video Player[/ame]

 

[BuzzieCat]

http://www.slate.com/id/2280653/

"Jared Lee Loughner's philosophy professor reflects on the shooting in Arizona."

"'Yeah, that's him,' says Kent Slinker, when I read him some of Loughner's syllogisms over the phone. 'That kind of nonsensical, disconnected thinking.' Slinker, an adjunct philosophy professor at Pima Community College, taught Loughner in Introduction to Logic during the spring semester of 2010. Slinker's impression of Loughner was that of 'someone whose brains were scrambled.'"

Also -
http://www.slate.com/BLOGS/blogs/we...-happened-to-loughner-s-language-problem.aspx

Another little article pointing out that Loughner didn't seem to have any problems communicating clearly when he was brought before the judge with his new lawyer.

 

[alwayslooking]

I don't see the direct connection between trying to limit certain people's access to dangerous weapons and laws that determine who can and can't have kids. Although limiting the ability of crazy people or criminals to have kids may not be such a bad thing. In any event, I think the right to own a gun should be limited to those who are not criminals and do not have diagnosed mental issues. I don't think either of those would have protected the people that got shot by Loughner, though. He was not really a criminal (except petty vandalism) and it doesn't look like he'd been diagnosed yet.

Reading the posts by Songline, Hockeymom, Missizzy and Nova, one can really see the dilemma. Do we allow for involuntary treatment or assessments based on the say so of relatives, or some sort of authority like college admins etc.? Do we allow for involuntary long-term lock-up of persistently mentally ill people who won't stay on their medications? What about all the abuses that occurred when such was allowed? How husbands and fathers used the laws to control women? How certain people seen as non-conformist were subjugated by such laws? And yet, I hear of so many horror stories from people watching their loved one suffer or suffering as a result of uncontrolled nuts that are free to harass them.

My roommate's mom and step-dad moved into a house in NV that had been inhabited by a clearly crazy women, before they bought it. They were not told prior to the purchase (I think it was either foreclosed on or sold and she was evicted). After they moved in, the crazy lady started showing up demanding that they leave her house, coming to get her mail, tossing theirs, etc. Then she started breaking in. They came home from a vacation once to find all their frozen meat (step-dad's a hunter, so there was a ton), all over the living room and she was in there, in the back bedroom, hiding by the bed with a knife.

This couple have gone to several commitment hearings to beg that this scary woman be locked up long-term. Most of the time she is released after 72 hours. Sometimes she's not committed at all. She had a mother that disappeared once after a drive with her daughter in the desert. Daughter had her purse, IIRC. Mom has never been seen since. And yet this couple are powerless to totally protect themselves from this woman. That's just wrong.

I understand what you are saying, and any infrigment of anyone's Constitution rights is not worth the trade off.
The man that shot my husband had a legal gun, and some will say he had mental problems. I have no issue with the man having a legal gun, he would have got one anyway! I also want to protect my husbands rights to his gun! Of course I control the weapon, however I do take him out and let him shot with his left hand, he does pretty well.....I assume all risks, and could be the only person injuried, it is worth the price for his freedom!

 

[Trino]

http://www.slate.com/id/2280653/

"Jared Lee Loughner's philosophy professor reflects on the shooting in Arizona."

"'Yeah, that's him,' says Kent Slinker, when I read him some of Loughner's syllogisms over the phone. 'That kind of nonsensical, disconnected thinking.' Slinker, an adjunct philosophy professor at Pima Community College, taught Loughner in Introduction to Logic during the spring semester of 2010. Slinker's impression of Loughner was that of 'someone whose brains were scrambled.'"

Also -
http://www.slate.com/BLOGS/blogs/we...-happened-to-loughner-s-language-problem.aspx

Another little article pointing out that Loughner didn't seem to have any problems communicating clearly when he was brought before the judge with his new lawyer.

Re: elementary playground lawsuit
Did Loughner hit his head and have problems because of this?

 

[burbqueen]

I blame the parents. i know it might ruffle some feathers here, but that is how I feel. I've seen it first hand in my own family where the mentally ill are just swept under the rug. I'm tired of the excuses. "oh he is odd" or "eccentric". Yeah sure thats easy to say before that person goes on a rampage and kills people.

From what I have read the parents may have had issues too. Dad not working for years and apparently kinda "weird" himself. I think there are some family issues that will come out. I am also laughing at all the neighbors, friends, classmates etc that have spoken out, but dont want their names or faces out there. I dont understand why.

I am all for certain Draconian laws. I know this country is all about freedom and rights, but I am a bit more harsh then most. I think people shouldnt have reproductive rights. Forced sterilizations are fine with me. I believe for sure that a lot of people should not have children. I think having a child is not a right, but a huge responsibility to not just a parent but to our society as a whole. You should be raising a productive member of society and not just having a child for self gratification. There should be a screening before you become a parent. You have to go thru a process to adopt, so should having a kid naturally. I dont agree with age limits. But social, economical and mental health issues should factor into having a kid.

I think children are our most precious commodity. A damaged child can grow up to be a killer. Yeah, I know perfect parents can produce a murderer but the majority of abusers and killers were abused themselves. No death penalty, or rehab, or jail can stop people from hurting someone. I live in Texas and we try em and fry em here, but people still kill. However, if we eliminate the inept from the equation then things might improve. I know this will never happen, but a girl can dream.

With what we know about mental illness this isnt the 50's or the 60's with harsh treatments for the mentally ill like electro shock treatments etc. Bring back state hospitals and have a place where people can get affordable treatment. This way they could get help and dont harm themselves or others.

 

[raisincharlie]

Burbqueen, I somewhat agree. I tend to think the father might have known something.

I honestly have to admit after reading various media reports about the morning encounter between Jared and his father - why would his father be chasing him in a truck for "mumbling something" or removing a black bag from the trunk of his car? Why did Jared run in the first place? Where there's smoke, there is often fire.


ETA - http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...ng-jared-loughner-father-pursued-suspect.html

On the morning of the shooting, a mumbling Jared Loughner fled after his father asked him why he was removing a black bag from the trunk of a family car, said Nanos and Rick Kastigar, chief of the department's investigations bureau. Investigators are still searching for the bag.

 

[i.b.nora]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...-shooting-girlfriend-20110113,0,6891504.story

Jared Lee Loughner's high school girlfriend: 'He was completely different back then than he is now'
Kelsey Hawkes, who dated Arizona shooting suspect Jared Lee Loughner in high school, says she's been 'bombarded' by media inquiries. 'I did date Jared Loughner six years ago in high school,' she says, 'but he's not the same Jared Loughner that the world now knows as a mass murderer -- not the same person at all.'

By Molly Hennessey-Fiske, Los Angeles Times

January 12, 2011, 7:18 a.m.

"Kelsey Hawkes, 21, dated Loughner when he was a sophomore and she was a freshman at Mountain View High School in Tucson."

"Looking back, Hawkes said, Loughner definitely changed after high school, but not because of their breakup, as some people have implied."

much more ...

 

[Herding Cats]

Burbqueen wrote:

With what we know about mental illness this isnt the 50's or the 60's with harsh treatments for the mentally ill like electro shock treatments etc. Bring back state hospitals and have a place where people can get affordable treatment. This way they could get help and dont harm themselves or others.

Actually, just as a point of clarification, they do still do electro shock treatments. It's a bit kinder and gentler, but it's still done. And fairly often, too. It's called electro convulsive therapy, and one is put under as in surgery, so it's not quite as barbaric as earlier, but it is still done.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[gelfie68]

Burbqueen wrote:


Actually, just as a point of clarification, they do still do electro shock treatments. It's a bit kinder and gentler, but it's still done. And fairly often, too. It's called electro convulsive therapy, and one is put under as in surgery, so it's not quite as barbaric as earlier, but it is still done.

Best-
Herding Cats

It was offered to my child when the last "break down" occurred. We were all for it. It offers so much relief to those who are experiencing a manic depressive episode. Kind of like a "reboot" for the brain.

 

[doubt]

I truelly do feel for these people,but from all reports it sounds like Jared had issues before he turned 18.(alcohol overdose in 11th grade),did they get him help? Also sounds like they imposed their isolationist lifestyle on him as a child,not letting him play with neighborhood children. I'd love to know about his life before high school. There is so much more we need to know to understand how Jared got to this point.

my thoughts exactly.

at this point, it just seems that these parents not only chose not to help an obviously troubled child before he reached 18 and could legally ignore them....but also that their own lifestyle choices contributed to his illness.

while it's true that parents are not always at fault for a child who grows up to do something monstrous......it's also true that parents are not always innocent. sadly, i believe that in this case, we are going to find out about a kid who became a monster because he was given no other alternative.

 

[doubt]

And, as is being reported here and there on the www and apparently on his own Facebook page, he is openly gay.

So, I say Double God Bless Him!!!

And, I hope that sends the WBC people into even bigger tailspins.

actually, he said he only had basic first aid training.....which makes his actions all the more impressive.

 

[nosysw]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNo0wJ-5Kc0[/ame]

Not sure if this has been posted. I've seen bits and pieces of what is says in this thread but haven't reviewed the whole thread. Toward the end it talks about the college, Pima, saying he could continue if he participated in mental health services... he did not return.

 

[hockeymom]

Burbqueen wrote:


Actually, just as a point of clarification, they do still do electro shock treatments. It's a bit kinder and gentler, but it's still done. And fairly often, too. It's called electro convulsive therapy, and one is put under as in surgery, so it's not quite as barbaric as earlier, but it is still done.

Best-
Herding Cats

HC is correct, it is used,but when I was working in the field,it was pretty much a last resort. One young man in his 20"s comes to mind. He was the sweetest guy,but plagued by the voices inside his mind. He was constantly in and out of the hospital. They could not find the right combination of drugs to help him. He was always compliant and wanted desperatly to be well. When I think of him,my heart hurts . The last time I saw him they did end up using ECT, and as HC has said,the patient is under sedation. At that time it seemed like it helped him. I don't know if it did long term. I think of him often and guess he would have been someone who probably ended his own life. I don't think he could have survived a lifetime of his own tortured mind.

 

[nosysw]

Padua--I am the mother of fourteen children. Three born to my husband and me. Two adopted in infancy from Korea. And nine adopted domestically--all with myriad special needs. All but one are adults. My entire adult life has been dedicated to the issues of the prenatally substance exposed child, special education, adoption issues, post adoption supports and services, treatment for the sexually abused child, the eradication of child , crimes victims rights, and mental health care for children and the disabled. I'm an advocate, writer and a former lobbyist. I have a strong interest in the societal implications of crime and what leads a young person to commit a crime. I also happen to be a pacifist.

I hope that answers your question.

Missizzy: You are my hero. I work in a school in an inner city. 9th graders only. I know of 3, at least, who are attending school with ankle bracelets, two for assault and car theft, one for armed robbery. I work directly with these 3 kids but I am sure there are a number more who I don't know about.

I am interested, as well, of knowing the answers to the questions you are asking (and have many ideas about it as well) and I also happen to be a pacifist. We are really stuck between a rock and a hard place in schools these days. Everything is about "least restrictive environment" and individual student's rights and then we have the other side of the coin which is the students who are being effectively denied an education due to the disruption from the few.

The colleges have alot more flexibility than the public elementary and high schools as far as setting criteria for dismissal. It is a huge issue- I wish I had some answers. Sometimes I feel like I am spinning my wheels and as they say, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem". Thank you for being part of the solution.

 

[Dr. Know?]

This maybe a repeat.

Officers stopped suspect on day of Tucson shooting

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/ar...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[raisincharlie]

This maybe a repeat.

Officers stopped suspect on day of Tucson shooting

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/ar...tml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

They are also reporting that he was on his way home when stopped. He had spent the night in a motel and was going home. They (azcentral) are also now reporting it was an argument with his father that am, not just some mumbling and that he ran off into the desert after the argument. The black bag still has not been found reportedly.

Scanner link if anyone wants to listen:

http://www.radioreference.com/apps/audio/?ctid=103