GUILTY AZ - Three die in sweat lodge during spiritual retreat, Yavapai County, 8 Oct 2009

[Bullwinkle]

kpnx_nightside‎

"James Arthur Ray - guilty of negligent homicide 1 count - Kirby Brown"

Twitter - seconds ago

 

[LyndyLoo]

Oh My Lordy Lord..JER found guilty of 3 counts of negligent homicide ( lesser counts) which according to HLN means 3-5 years.....Yikes doubt you all will recall I was glued to this case in the early goings..But i just had to back away with the Def. attitudes...

NOW I need to ask?? Can the judge apply 3-5 years consecutive?? I truly dont want this parascite to take advantage of another human being for the rest of his life!!..I am on ly speaking personally!! but this guy had far too much power over alot of normal humans seeking enlightenment...

James Earl Ray is one dispicable example of "Guru" to peace and enlightenment unless it created money into HIS pocket..I hope and pray God judges him harshly in final "Judgement"!!

Sorry folks..I am just so tired of earthly judgement in the "Freedom World" giving breaks to low lives:sick:

 

[legalmania]

Is that 3 to 5 for each count, I sure hope so. It should be consecutive. IMO he was wrong in the way those people were treated and I think he should spend a lot of time in prison to see how much he can take.

 

[legalmania]

Is that 3 to 5 for each count, I sure hope so. It should be consecutive. IMO he was wrong in the way those people were treated and I think he should spend a lot of time in prison to see how much he can take. Here is the criminal statatue for negligent homicide in Arizona.

http://law.justia.com/codes/arizona/2010/title13/13-1102.html

 

[Bullwinkle]

[video=youtube;dVh4nd-hBy0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVh4nd-hBy0[/video]

 

[legalmania]

Is that 3 to 5 for each count, I sure hope so. It should be consecutive. IMO he was wrong in the way those people were treated and I think he should spend a lot of time in prison to see how much he can take. Here is the criminal statatue for negligent homicide in Arizona.

http://law.justia.com/codes/arizona/2010/title13/13-1102.html

 

[costalpilot]

Is that 3 to 5 for each count, I sure hope so. It should be consecutive. IMO he was wrong in the way those people were treated and I think he should spend a lot of time in prison to see how much he can take.

I do not know how a judge decides leniency vs stringency in a case like this, so my opinion is not worth much

but based on the feelings I felt watching this trial, I would expect the judge is going to dish out a moderately strong to strong sentence.

i cared nothing about the case or the defendant till I watched several weeks of the case, and then my attitude towards the defendant hardened

I felt like the jurors and the judge were feeling the same way

you know what bod dylan said

you dont need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows

and its an ill wind blowing towards james arthur ray right now

i dont know if the law of attraction is kinda true , true , false, an Oprahism or whatever

but I firmly believe Ray deserves what he is getting right now

and that the judge is gonna hammer him

he WAS NOT a sympathetic character

inmate james arthur ray

one down / one to go


:great:

 

[tapu]

So Zig,

I read about the case; didn't see any of it. Sometimes that makes a big difference, I know.

But I'm kind of wishing they had dropped the whole poisonous substance angle and gone purely with these seemingly reasonable, responsible adults, on a week-long vacation, having to take care of themselves.

I think the defense would have been better off contrasting Jim Jones' cult to James Ray's customers, in terms of vulnerability, isolation, means, time inculcated, etc.

I was also thinking about the famous experiments where subjects thought they were conferring horrible punishment upon a person but kept doing it because the experimenter told them to. Think about how that shades into this. Are the experiment's subjects guilty, or not guilty because the experimenter told them what to do. (This is often used as an illustration of how some really nice people did the bidding of the Third Reich.) Think, too, of the comparison between the experiment's subjects and their guilt, if any; and then of those who knew other participants in James' exercise needed help, but left off when he told them not to. What is their responsibility in this case?

I am surprised at (and kind of down about) how people think about personal responsibility related to this case.


Zig and anyone, I should have said: of course any response welcome!

 

[ziggy]

So Zig,

I read about the case; didn't see any of it. Sometimes that makes a big difference, I know.

But I'm kind of wishing they had dropped the whole poisonous substance angle and gone purely with these seemingly reasonable, responsible adults, on a week-long vacation, having to take care of themselves.

I think the defense would have been better off contrasting Jim Jones' cult to James Ray's customers, in terms of vulnerability, isolation, means, time inculcated, etc.

I was also thinking about the famous experiments where subjects thought they were conferring horrible punishment upon a person but kept doing it because the experimenter told them to. Think about how that shades into this. Are the experiment's subjects guilty, or not guilty because the experimenter told them what to do. (This is often used as an illustration of how some really nice people did the bidding of the Third Reich.) Think, too, of the comparison between the experiment's subjects and their guilt, if any; and then of those who knew other participants in James' exercise needed help, but left off when he told them not to. What is their responsibility in this case?

I am surprised at (and kind of down about) how people think about personal responsibility related to this case.


Zig and anyone, I should have said: of course any response welcome!

Hey Tap: I didn't get to watch any of it either, just a few clips on In Session but I tried to follow it online. I agree with you in part - I lost track of what happened with the whole design defect angle. To me that would have been more important than the poison angle.

I think the defense needed to bring up all of the other possibilities to illustrate reasonable doubt.

I completely agree with you that adults are contributing to their own deaths by paying gobs of money to sit in an ugly makeshift lodge and sweat in addition to relying on a self help motivator to make life or death decisions for them.

If I told you to put razor blades in your mouth and chew them and although it would feel like the worst thing in the world, you would be renewed and enlightened and claim your eternal power...would you do it? And for those who did do it, I mean...really? You'd blame ME???? Idiots.

I know they didn't sign up for death, but anything you do that is going to require endurance of intense heat is intrinsically dangerous!!!! Duh. People have to walk out of hot yoga. So they thought they could get through it and didn't. Well, gee.

That's why I am interested from those who followed the trial more than I did, to know what testimony resulted in the report from the expert that claimed a design defect caused a certain area to be oxygen depleted contributing to the deaths of those in that immediate area.

Maybe I'm just trying to minimize the decedents' contribution by finding that something kept them from thinking clearly. Maybe they just should have left and it was their own misguided determination that did them in.

 

[ziggy]

And to add...yes, history shows that those who do as they are told, are blamed when society later determines what they did was wrong and they should have known better and gone against orders. Did you ever see the movie "The Experiment"? It was mostly about how power corrupts, but even those who knew they didn't have real power and did not agree with what the pack leaders were doing caved in and went along...and as a viewer you are really pissed at them!!!

As for the others who could have helped but backed off, they have zero responsibility under the law. I'm sure they feel terrible and hopefully will NEVER take the word of a mere man over their own instincts and intellect again.

My spelling sucks tonight! I'm going to blame someone else. Ray, blaming him. Why not.

 

[costalpilot]

well you can blame Ray for you bad spelling. so what. its cute and suggestive, but the fact remains that a jury who heard months of testimony convicted Ray of 3 counts of negligent homicide and imo the judge is going to give him a pretty stiff sentence under the guidelines, with time off for first offense, but hes going to jail for a long time.

just because the idea of free will sounds good in the round, it meant nothing to this trial. NOTHING. Unless one chose for whatever reason to ignore the facts of the case.


yes the fire wasn't dead on balls accurate in the center and yes the heat wasn't perfectly dispersed and yes a medic said something about organophosphates, and yes they signed waivers

and so on.....

fact is, he's going to jail for a long time because the people that heard all about it know what happened and why.

especially the judge. he got it all, even the information which he withheld from the jury about the earlier sicknesses Ray had caused, and the death that happened during an "exercise".

and the judge will judge and Ray has attracted about the next ten years OR SO of his life to a cell.

and killed three people.

free will...la dee da

GUILTY

 

[ziggy]

Yea, well just because a jury says so doesn't always make it so...cough..OJ...cough, cough. And yes the jury was there and I wasn't and they listened, but if other factors could have contributed to the deaths, which you point out, were brought in by the defense, then I disagree with the jury. But I do respect the process. He will have his chance to appeal and the court can take it from there.

I think saying he KILLED three people is an exaggerated statement. A criminally negligent homicide is unintentional.

And I do not agree with the direction our society is headed always having to lay blame on someone other than ones self.

 

[costalpilot]

......I'm sure they feel terrible and hopefully will NEVER take the word of a mere man over their own instincts and intellect again........

well the dead people will not, thats for sure.

its unlikely the other survivors will either

people can learn, if they are alive.

 

[costalpilot]

Yea, well just because a jury says so doesn't always make it so...cough..OJ...cough, cough. And yes the jury was there and I wasn't and they listened, but if other factors could have contributed to the deaths, which you point out, were brought in by the defense, then I disagree with the jury. But I do respect the process. He will have his chance to appeal and the court can take it from there.

I think saying he KILLED three people is an exaggerated statement. A criminally negligent homicide is unintentional.

And I do not agree with the direction our society is headed always having to lay blame on someone other than ones self.

my bolding.

you disagree with the jury because the defense floated some theories which "could" have contributed to the deaths.

apparently you do this because the defense raised the issues.


(by this reasoning ICA should be set free because JB accused GA of sexual abuse and masterminding a cover up. )


imo you are disagreeing with the jury based on a perceived social tide in our country which you disagree with.

which has nothing to do with the facts in this trial.

 

[Madeleine74]

I followed this case off and on. I believe the jury came to the correct verdict and convicted on the correct charges. Such a terrible shame. Hope Mr. Ray contemplates the Law of Attraction and the other Universal Laws to learn just how he attracted this whole thing based on his questionable practices, greed, bullying, coercion, and manipulation. I hope he is never able to have a bunch of followers who he manipulates again.

 

[ziggy]

my bolding.

you disagree with the jury because the defense floated some theories which "could" have contributed to the deaths.

apparently you do this because the defense raised the issues.


(by this reasoning ICA should be set free because JB accused GA of sexual abuse and masterminding a cover up. )


imo you are disagreeing with the jury based on a perceived social tide in our country which you disagree with.

which has nothing to do with the facts in this trial.

Same reason I disagreed with the OJ jury. Social tide does have an effect on juries like it or not. I think Casey A. is guilty as hell. I happen to find JB's goofy theories much less reasonable than the design defect possibility in this case. I certainly don't want KC to walk, but if she did, it could be due to the fact that juries believe incest and sexual abuse are rampant and caused her to act like she did following a horrible accident. It's possible.

If those floating theories were backed up by expert or other testimony then for me they created reasonable doubt. However the jury has to assign how much weight to give that evidence and they were there and I was not.

I'll back way up and say there should have been a mistrial due to the discovery violation by the state. Ray should get a do-over. I'm no defense supporter - I'm usually a big fan of prosecutors, but wrong is wrong.

 

[ziggy]

PS: I feel like there is a lot of bigotry expressed on this thread for those who practice self help or personal growth. While I feel there are folks who will take this practice too far (as with just about any belief for that matter) I would caution lumping everyone in that same steaming pile. The same goes for the men and women who do seminars or sell materials. They are not all evil, greedy snake oil salesmen. They've actually helped many people.

It's weird; I can just feel vile hatred for Ray because of what he does and I feel like there's some kind of cult panic. These people were not controlled by him! They believed in working through physical challenges, like mountain climbers do. Ray is no Jim Jones.

 

[costalpilot]

personally I have spent some time dabbling in the self help industry, from
John Bradshaw to Eckhart Tolle to Ken Keyes. I've even attentended a Louise Hay event. I have nothing against the industry, quite the contrary.

My probelm is with James Arthus Ray. I think he is an evil snake oil salesman and I think 3 people died as a result and that many more were lucky to have lived.

and pretty much ALL the attendees at his last event feel the same way, in so far as they ALL testifyed against him.

Bright, intelligent,successful people who were duped, lived to tell about it, and are anxious for the world to know just how evil and manipulative this snake oil salesman is, and how dangerous.


if Darrow erred, then Ray will get another trial. only, like spector b4 him, his DREAM legal team won't be representing him, since they have already taken all his money.

but Darrow IS a smart man and an excellent judge. I'm not worried.

PS: I feel like there is a lot of bigotry expressed on this thread for those who practice self help or personal growth. While I feel there are folks who will take this practice too far (as with just about any belief for that matter) I would caution lumping everyone in that same steaming pile. The same goes for the men and women who do seminars or sell materials. They are not all evil, greedy snake oil salesmen. They've actually helped many people.

It's weird; I can just feel vile hatred for Ray because of what he does and I feel like there's some kind of cult panic. These people were not controlled by him! They believed in working through physical challenges, like mountain climbers do. Ray is no Jim Jones.

 

[Madeleine74]

I practice self-help and personal growth and have for years. At the same time, I can spot a phoney when confronted with one. Someone who puts their own personal wealth and ego ahead of their clients is not practicing the the very laws of spirituality they are 'selling.'

Personal growth is available to everyone, at any time. And a bigger newsflash: it doesn't cost thousands or even hundreds to learn these principles and utilize tools. IMHO and experience.

 

[ziggy]

my bolding.

you disagree with the jury because the defense floated some theories which "could" have contributed to the deaths.

apparently you do this because the defense raised the issues.


(by this reasoning ICA should be set free because JB accused GA of sexual abuse and masterminding a cover up. )


imo you are disagreeing with the jury based on a perceived social tide in our country which you disagree with.

which has nothing to do with the facts in this trial.

Juries don't always get it right do they? I can't believe Ray is doing time and Casey is going free. Go figure. I disagree with both juries.

Yes, the jury sat there all through Ray's trial and I didn't. I tried to point out that doesn't always mean a jury will make the right decision.