GUILTY AZ - Three die in sweat lodge during spiritual retreat, Yavapai County, 8 Oct 2009

[costalpilot]

i like vinnie s take, Ray is coming across as CALLOUS and UNCARING.

beth says maybe he was advised by his attys to back off, but vinnie was talking about JR's behavior at the time.

 

[costalpilot]

now one of JR's former teachers is explaining how JR bastardized the training they were teaching..by that I mean JR was adding and subtracting elements from what they were teaching. which was an ancient Hawaiin teaching. he then explains how JR distorted their teaching, making it far different from what it was about: Hunnaa traditions. the former teacher sees JR's pattern in not finding the right thing in the teachings.

the former teacher stresses how important it is for a teacher to deal with your own issues and how ego can destroy.

he doesnt think that JR should be teaching others what they taught him. he says his school disassociated itself from JR as soon as they figured out what he was doing.

 

[costalpilot]

now DR Jonathan Ellerby who has participated and conducted sweat lodges:

vinnie asks what he thinks,


"If I heard such a story".


1. either the person who ran something like this wasnt trained properly or their judgement was impaired.


vinnie tries to get the dr to say he is bothered by $$$$. Dr says the real problem is that this casts a shadow on these kinds of events for a poor reason.


v. asks if he thinks JR really wanted to help these people: dr ansers: there is usually a few dynamics that can go wrong. start good, then growing fame distorts their behavior.

when $$ gets involved, things can go wrong.

V agrees.

sorry for typos. trying to get this out as best I can, which isn't too good, I admit. but thats it for monday IS.

 

[azwriter]

So sunny says what matters in understanding Rays inaction when people were unconscious IS what he was thinking: if he was thinking they were merely experiencing an altered state, his doing nothing to help them makes sense, cause he didn't think they were in danger.

I say, if a person is not breathing and receiving CPR and if there are several people in the sAme state, it's ridiculous to suggest Anyone could misinterpret that.

Struggling for lifes breath is a very apparent thing and it's not something a normal person mistakes for anything else. I was a medic in the armed forces. I saw people die. There's no misunderstanding.

For me, I can believe Ray just might not grasp the seriousness of the entire scene. He's got to have an ego the size of Canada. I can imagine he would not believe anything could go wrong with whatever program he put in place.
Which, however, tells me that he also did not understand what can happen when you place that many people in a sweat lodge for that long of a period of time.
I think he was ignorant of how things worked. I haven't heard, but I bet Ray never did much of an inspection of the sweat lodge that was built there. Or asked any questions as to what just might go wrong.
He certainly didn't seem prepared in advance for any medical concerns that might arise, not just for the sweat lodge, but with all the games and treks.

IMO this guy is so full of himself, there's no way he could have expected anything would be less than perfect when it was an activity he had a hand in. jmo

 

[costalpilot]

i agree with your pt about his ego dominating him so much so that it might well potentially hamper his perceptive abilities. I think that happened, no doubt.

Unexpected life and death situations must be one of the most difficult real life situations to handle. Personally, I think he probably emotionally, mentally and physically froze when he came out and saw CPR going on and heard the sheer panic and pandemonium that had to be present.

one of the IS th's said someone told him to go get a defibrillator and he went to look, and the pt they were trying to make was that he showed concern by doing something productive. Imagine that, the captain of the ship, so to speak, when it all goes bad, he stands there doing nothing till someone tells him to go on an errand, and he goes. other than doing that, I am not aware that he did anything but stand at the scene, motionless. to me thats the picture of someone frozen by fear. when someone sent him on an errand, I'll bet he was happy to go, to get out of the immediate scene, a hell on earth that he had created.

 

[costalpilot]

Cross of Olesen ( from thursday). Generic, non specific questionings ended with "it wasn't a cult like experience, was it". Ans."not for me, it wasn't",

this was a tape from thursday but the interesting thing for me was that olesens testimony revealed how desperately people needed help and that olesen tried to help them while james Ray did NOTHING. But this part of the cross did not even address or respond to the important initial testimony, which was powerful. People were incapacitated and in great need of help in the sweatoodge. Olesen was trying to help and he vocalized that he needed help but nobody including James Ray helped. In fact James said "leave her alone, she'll be ok.". and the defense didn't respond to that testimony, in the portion IS replayed.

 

[costalpilot]

More cross of olesen wherein da reads waivers and emphasis warning phrases that witness (like the others) signed but didn't read.

This is major defense theme: waivers signed by participants. Now da stresses lack of insects,,,(planting poisoned soil theory).

Back to waivers and releases. With references to free will every so often. Da keeps mentioning that some people left. (free will again.)

datty says what jr told people about how to leave the sweat lodge but neglects to add that jr said you could only leave during the breaks but olesen adds that IMPORTANT rule which the atty conveniently ommitted from the question.

 

[costalpilot]

Good presentation by IS on waivers.

Bottom line: waivers don't apply to criminal charges. Surely at some pt the state will make that cleat to the jury. If I was a juror, when that is pointed out, I discount ALl the defenses many references to them and I feel that the defense was trying to trick me and I don't like it.

 

[costalpilot]

Dr Beverly Bunn is a powerful witness not easy to push around. But the defense is pushing. It's not clear where they are going but but she's pushing back. She's not gonna let them mis-state anything.

Now the d. Is pushing lack of insects = poison dirt, he had tried to get her to say she wouldn't have done anything jr told her to do but she wouln't answer and he moved on .

More "you didn't see any ants questions."

now def. Atty is using transcripts to counter quotes she gave that misquoted Ray. They are trying to show that she is out to get Ray, which is what Beth had said they would do. They are having a tough time because she is much smarter than your average witness,

 

[costalpilot]

Boy she is really playing hard ball, she wouln't even answer a ? About whether a picture was of them in line , she just didn't answer so the atty then withdrew the ? And goes into a long story that ends with him saying "you don't see jr pushing anyone into the tent" and she responded " no but they were dragged out."


Wow.

Course it was stricken but just WOW!

 

[costalpilot]

Wow the def. Atty just got her to admit she didn't help Kirby in vthe sweat lodge. It was dramatic but I'm not sure it's gonna help jr because now the state can have her explain why she didn't help: which probably is, because jr was in charge and he didn't want any disruption.

If I was going to be a witness I would want to see Beverly bubba testimony. She's practically the only witness I've seen that can give it back in the sense of controlling the questioning by presence and pacing.

Tom kelley, the defense atty tried to get her to say she was closer to Kirby than jr but she had moved and she said she wasn't then Beth said that Kelley got her to say she was closer but that's not what she said.

 

[costalpilot]

Boy you can cut the tension with a knife

 

[LyndyLoo]

Sorry been away from this case since last week...A Mr. Ray is on the stand now, being cross examined by Female Attny:

sorry, this is really really like a broken record..going over his reasons for attending seminars..and will address later of these..but I again hear this waivers, signings...Guess what?...This man did NOT have a chance to read them..(rushed) hurried when signing into Sedona Lodge...

MY point regarding these waivers, and have said before here..THEY are NOT worth the paper they are written on if there is Negligence proven!! Also all consents have to be read, and explained..thus known as "Informed Consents"..also initials on each page have to be signed or initialed to indicate they have been read and understood!! Anyway, whenever consents or waivers are questioned, the Witness of said signature MUST be questioned and prove they have explained each and every waived point to the signator.
Even giving all that..Negligence, and or criminal activities completely NEGATE any protections offered by such a consent or waiver!!

Some lawyer here may support my understanding, or point out where I am misinformed..TYIA

Short recess...time 130PM EDT not sure what time it is in the courtroom??

 

[LyndyLoo]

Ohhh Geesh..Defense keeps repeating "Your Choice, Your Decision,Free Will,," ext..and skims over the mear fact that he HAD NO CHOICE to decide or chose to stop or leave, cause He was passed out... Not to mention HE could NOT LEAVE until the end of the session or round!! Which this witnessed did mention...Interesting, I dont think that point could be missed by the JURY!!

HE also states has has memory losses..unable to remember just what decisions he did make??..Interesting too..

BTW..They are back ~~

http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=1

( for those that can access it)

 

[LyndyLoo]

Samuri Games...Yikes it sounds like "Paintball Games"..only they have a "GOD" that supervised it...Humm wonder who that "GOD" was?..First two guesses dont count :floorlaugh:

 

[LyndyLoo]

Now I did not see this man's initial examination by the pros..only since the Cross started...This man has a history of being a " Marathon Runner" and a karate expert (3rd degee Black Belt)..so had physically and mentally ability to deal with self control, dealing with altered states during stress ( and def.. made a great deal of that)..however, he did end up after Sweat Lodge Ceremony in a coma, and hospitalized. I also believe this cermony followed a 36 hour "Vision Quest" where they spent total fasting....

As a HC giver, I just dont know why the need to rehydrate properly didnt take place...It takes alot more than 24 hours..rebalance electolytes takes more time than that!! Add to that he was also exposed to extreme HEAT!! which alters the ability of the Hypothalamus Gland ( in the Brain) to adjust, compensate for this stressor!! These people were Dead People Walking!!..

Hypothalamus' job is like your body's thermostat..and it tries to command your body's organs to adapt accordingly..i.e. stop sweating, or increase breathing, or kidney's to stop removing fluids etc..Its a very important Glad!!

Bottomline..and have heard this from every participant in this ceremony say very clearly, that they could NOT leave if felt ill UNTIL end of session!! Amazing!!

 

[costalpilot]

Ohhh Geesh..Defense keeps repeating "Your Choice, Your Decision,Free Will,," ext..and skims over the mear fact that he HAD NO CHOICE to decide or chose to stop or leave, cause He was passed out... Not to mention HE could NOT LEAVE until the end of the session or round!! Which this witnessed did mention...Interesting, I dont think that point could be missed by the JURY!!

HE also states has has memory losses..unable to remember just what decisions he did make??..Interesting too..

BTW..They are back ~~

http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=1

( for those that can access it)

of course the defense emphasized that someone rolled underneath the sides of the hut, thereby exercising their free will to leave, and insinuating that if you didn't do like wise, that was your free will choice. which conveniently overlooks the pressure brought by JR both before and during the entire event for you to go full out or in.

His basic paperwork, which they read today, suggests, actually SAYS, that JR understands everyones boundaries and capabilities better than they do.

I wonder if there is not some legal standard as to this question? Surely the courts have dealt with the concept of social/psychological pressure which may be brought to bear upon attendees by its leaders at an event and the responsibility of a promoter in that arena? But, maybe not.
Secondarily, surely the court has dealt with the responsibility of promoters of an event to be cognizant of the potential hazards that might arise and to make a clear effort to restrict the event from dangerous excesses.

I'm not so sure the first standard has been addressed but I feel like the second must have been. People can't just go around the country ignoring reasonable standards of safety when the put on events. thats just not possible.

for instance, lets say (which I do not believe for a second) the treated wood used to heat the rocks did somehow poison the attendees? Imo it is still JR's responsibility. He should have provided a poison free atmosphere for the sweat lodge, which is an inherently dangerous event and which requires extreme care in planning and execution.

He was guilty of negligence even if the "poisonous wood/rocks" scenario was true, Ray is still guilty in my book. Course he is gonna blame the facility.

but its a voodoo argument anyway. we know why these people died. because JR convinced them he knew what they could endure more than they did. and then he fried them.

extreme negligence.

 

[LyndyLoo]

He has some recollection of being "Water Boarded"..had no idea of when he thought that tho..I am will to bet he thought that when he was removed from the "Tent" and was being hosed down to cool off outside of the tent!!
This man is really very fortunate to still be alive!!

Def. goes back to Mr. Ray "Hitting that Runners Wall"..yikes...only in this situation he could not leave and there was NO One to help him, like in a race. There was people there to help and assist to get out of a race..however No Medical people there to help at the Sweat Lodge!! Good point..The Dream team was there but could not help until end of session...

Noon recess 3PM EDT...

 

[costalpilot]

Sorry been away from this case since last week...A Mr. Ray is on the stand now, being cross examined by Female Attny:

sorry, this is really really like a broken record..going over his reasons for attending seminars..and will address later of these..but I again hear this waivers, signings...Guess what?...This man did NOT have a chance to read them..(rushed) hurried when signing into Sedona Lodge...

MY point regarding these waivers, and have said before here..THEY are NOT worth the paper they are written on if there is Negligence proven!! Also all consents have to be read, and explained..thus known as "Informed Consents"..also initials on each page have to be signed or initialed to indicate they have been read and understood!! Anyway, whenever consents or waivers are questioned, the Witness of said signature MUST be questioned and prove they have explained each and every waived point to the signator.
Even giving all that..Negligence, and or criminal activities completely NEGATE any protections offered by such a consent or waiver!!

Some lawyer here may support my understanding, or point out where I am misinformed..TYIA

Short recess...time 130PM EDT not sure what time it is in the courtroom??

i said earlier the defenses continued emphasis on the signing of waivers would have a negative effect if I were a juror, when the state points out that a waiver is totally invalid whenever a crime has been committed.

when that is pointed out, I am upset and feel the defense has lied to me.

 

[costalpilot]

I've been undecided if I thought Ray would testify, given his talents and ego. I just realized they cannot put him on the stand because he CANNOT answer the question about his expertise about heat, heat stroke, and the individual 's ability to deal with those issues. There is no answer to the question, when you told the people they didn't have to leave the sweat lodges, what knowledge didd you have that allowed you to know what each person could tolerate?

There is no answer to that ?.