GUILTY AZ - Three die in sweat lodge during spiritual retreat, Yavapai County, 8 Oct 2009

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  • #181
Dr John Curtis was a great guest on IS. He nailed JR and the self help industry. Biggest red flag. ; asking big money. And it cost $75,000 to be a member of jr's inner circle. That's 75 thousand dollars.
 
  • #182
costalpilot said:
Dr John Curtis was a great guest on IS. He nailed JR and the self help industry. Biggest red flag. ; asking big money. And it cost $75,000 to be a member of jr's inner circle. That's 75 thousand dollars.
Click to expand...

Thanks..I knew people had to pay BIG bucks to be included..not to mention Big buck to attend seminars..You would think that educated, well healed people would see red flags themselves..however, I see know he slowly broke down their resistences..gained their trust...slowly but surely breaking down their ( common sensical thinkings) to believe in him and trust the man :crazy:

I think WE have to realize that we had never been exposed to his manipulations, so find it hard to understand just HOW so many educated, well off individuals could fall into his spell :banghead:
 
  • #183
Question~~ as I have not been able to watch this whole trial~~

Has there been any members of the "Dream Team" testify yet??..or past employee's of JR?? I also wonder IF they were paid well, or minimum wages??
I know Defense would claim all sorts of things..like Anger towards prvious boss etc...BUT I for one would just Love to hear their side of the equation:innocent:..Where they manipulated too..Where they in FULL belief of JR's policies?? etc...So many questions :waitasec:

And I do agree..JR will NOT testify..He is really a Sheep in Wolf's Clothing..He knows full well he screwed up his "Winning Agenda"..when he didnt bother to educate himself of the dangers of his "Policies"!! Policies based soley on Power not Science..Control and money was his Game!!
 
  • #184
LyndyLoo said:
Thanks..I knew people had to pay BIG bucks to be included..not to mention Big buck to attend seminars..You would think that educated, well healed people would see red flags themselves..however, I see know he slowly broke down their resistences..gained their trust...slowly but surely breaking down their ( common sensical thinkings) to believe in him and trust the man :crazy:

I think WE have to realize that we had never been exposed to his manipulations, so find it hard to understand just HOW so many educated, well off individuals could fall into his spell :banghead:
Click to expand...

Dr Curtis explained how even very intelligent people are susceptible to charlatans like Ray. I get it. Ray and people like him have mesmerizing qualities that people who are really seeking help are very susceptible to.

I've been to self help weekends, put on by Louise Hay, a major player in the industry. The speakers were many and extremely varied and you attended whichever workshops you choose, as well as group ones for the entire group. It was huge. Thousands of people. The last speaker was Dr. Dwane Dyer (sp) who is all over PBS and has many very popular groups and a huge following.

Two others were a couple who channeled "knowledge from the universe" through the wife, which was strictly a voice that came to her with rules on how to live and a whole universe of knowledge. Another was a scientist explaining recent finds about what makes up space, anti matter or something like that.

Point is, all these speakers were compelling, interesting, and all had large followings, and the people I met were intelligent, successful people.

I bought tapes and books, as did many people.

These people are extremely good at what they do. Ray was too. Only he was a time bomb ticking. Luckily I doubt many of these types are as flawed as him. It takes a real idiot to take 50 people into a sweat lodge and tell everyone you know better than them when they should leave. An ego maniac. And don't forget these people had been sleep and nourishment deprived all week and he had spent the entire week telling them he understood better than they did what their limits were.
 
  • #185
costalpilot said:
Dr Curtis explained how even very intelligent people are susceptible to charlatans like Ray. I get it. Ray and people like him have mesmerizing qualities that people who are really seeking help are very susceptible to.

I've been to self help weekends, put on by Louise Hay, a major player in the industry. The speakers were many and extremely varied and you attended whichever workshops you choose, as well as group ones for the entire group. It was huge. Thousands of people. The last speaker was Dr. Dwane Dyer (sp) who is all over PBS and has many very popular groups and a huge following.

Two others were a couple who channeled "knowledge from the universe" through the wife, which was strictly a voice that came to her with rules on how to live and a whole universe of knowledge. Another was a scientist explaining recent finds about what makes up space, anti matter or something like that.

Point is, all these speakers were compelling, interesting, and all had large followings, and the people I met were intelligent, successful people.

I bought tapes and books, as did many people.

These people are extremely good at what they do. Ray was too. Only he was a time bomb ticking. Luckily I doubt many of these types are as flawed as him. It takes a real idiot to take 50 people into a sweat lodge and tell everyone you know [B]better than them[/B] when they should leave. An ego maniac. And don't forget these people had been sleep and nourishment deprived all week and he had spent the entire week telling them he understood better than they did what their limits were.
Click to expand...

BBM~~ Yessiree..Takes a real nutbar to lead 50 well paying individuals into something that could kill them..and it did (3) ..not to mention hospitalize many..but did you what Mr. Ray said just before they had to take a break for IT repairs??..He said the Dr. told him at first he thought this was a "Mass Suicide" attempt!!!!!!!!!1 That speaks volumes to me :rocker:
 
  • #186
IS has Laurie Brown on, a lawyer and a registered nurse (they call her Dr. but I dont know why). she is a JR supporter.

She says this:

"well everybody has their own limits, no matter what they are doing and I don't think anybody can tell you to do something that you don't feel comfortable doing. People have free will."

Now, obviously she meant people can't compel others to do something because everyone has free will. She knows anybody can tell anybody anything. so she misspoke.

But, as to her real point, when an authority figure tells you over and over again that you do not understand your own limitations, that your understanding is flawed and that you need to substitute his judgement for yours, and that you may feel like you are gonna die, but he knows you are not, and that you should not listen to yourself but to him, imo the "authority" had better have some reason to say those things to you. Real reasons. Not imagined ones.

Dr Beverly Bunn got up to leave the sweat lodge, but James Ray told her not to, that she could do it. So she stayed.

My question is, how could he possibly know that she could do it? Obviously, he cannot know that. She's just lucky she lived. and ms Brown, the lawyer and registered nurse is just lucky she wasn't in that sweat lodge , cause if she was she might be dead.

she thinks she started a legal foundation for nurses because James Ray told her how to break a board with her fist. IMO if she had been in that sweat lodge, dying, and started to crawl out but James Ray had told her to stay cause she could do it, she would have stayed and died. IMO.
 
  • #187
LyndyLoo said:
BBM~~ Yessiree..Takes a real nutbar to lead 50 well paying individuals into something that could kill them..and it did (3) ..not to mention hospitalize many..but did you what Mr. Ray said just before they had to take a break for IT repairs??..He said the Dr. told him at first he thought this was a "Mass Suicide" attempt!!!!!!!!!1 That speaks volumes to me :rocker:
Click to expand...

I'm watching IS tape delay, piecemeal throughout the day. What was that again? I don't get it? Thanks?

I'm guessing a responding Dr told Ray that he thought it was a mass suicide attempt based on incredibility? He just couldn't believe they would do that by mistake? How did that come in????
 
  • #188
Part of Cross~~

Participants encourged to go past their limits..follow rules of the GAME (JR's Game), encouraged NOT to assist others who feel upset,vulnerable, breaking down etc...(allow them to deal with it themselves)...My oh my..setting them all up to NOT even try and help others in need....Hummmm Not to humanitarian, eh??

The more I see and hear..The more these people were put at a risk that far exceeds encounting own risks..which were NOT BTW ever specified in that waiver!!..

I just Love how Defense objects whenever witness is asked to opine on why he thought or did certain things??..Speculations?? Not on point??..Yikes!!


Heeeee talking about "Waterboarding"..He has no recollection of being hosed down or having water dumped on him after coming out of the SWEAT LODGE..HEE HEE..I pretty well figured thats when that thought actually crossed his altered mind :twocents:
 
  • #189
Not sure if they are DONE for the day..but appears the next witness has an issue with Camera's..hummm wonder who that is..He/She part of the "Program"??..Sure wish I could hear it..LOL FOrbidden fruit I guess?..

I will hang in for another half hour..but dont know at this point???
 
  • #190
Hi there! Just popping in with an opinion. :seeya:

I think what kept people in the sweat lodge despite the conditions was the money they paid to be there. Along the lines of "throwing good money after bad." No one wants to admit that they made a mistake, so they continue in that direction. Also, they don't want to "give up" that money by leaving--they imagine that they'll feel pretty sheepish the next day if they left without getting what they paid for. So they stay, perhaps thinking, "come on, nobody is going to die here!"
 
  • #191
Beth said today that the medical files of stephen ray will show that he was foaming at the mouth, and that foaming at the mouth is a symptom of poisoning not heat stroke. and that one doctor thought stephen ray might have been poisoned.

i did a short google search:

1.http://www.medhelp.org/symptomsearch?addterm=Foaming At The Mouth

2.http://tools.aolhealth.com/symptom-checker?addterm=Foaming at the mouth

I realize its only the internet, but neither poison nor heatstroke come up. However, near drowning did come up. and what is drowning but an inability to breathe. I imagine if your being cooked it might be difficult to breathe too. Even James Ray himself knew that difficulty in breathing was going to be a problem since he toid them they might find it easier to breathe by putting their mouth near the ground. And indeed they did that, put their mouths close to the ground, in an attempt to get air.

Just because a doctor has a theory about a critically ill person doesn't mean the doctor has made the correct diagnosis.

I'm sure the defense will find a dr willing to say foaming at the mouth is a symptom of poisoning but I'm equally sure its more likely a result of them not being able to breathe while they were being cooked in a oven.
 
  • #192
sunny likes twan's cross, how she tricked the jury into thinking the state is trying to cherry pick tapes to mislead them, when in fact it is the defense which is preventing tapes from being played.

sunny is also surprised james ray is a great speaker and that she likes him, because she is a skeptic of self help gurus. what a shock that a person who has made millions speaking to people is good at it.

mike and vinnie don't think JR will testify. I'm sure he won't. there is no answer to the question, how did you know it was safe for the participants to continue when they wanted to leave the sweat lodge. no answer to that question.

mike and sunny think the defense has a leg up at this point. mike is all enamored with the "pressurized wood poisoned them" theory and that the ER DRS initially thought it might have been poisonings. By the time Steven Ray was discharged, I'm sure the poison thought was forgotten and they knew what the real problem was. Of course Drs have different theories on what might be wrong with a patient. Big deal.

beth is impressed there were no red ants on the ground. my god the ground was sprayed for bugs.

all the th's are impressed that the defense has this "poison" theory.

I'm not. it sounds like the OJ defense to me. if the glove doesn't fit you must acquit.

the th's are in love with the defense team.
 
  • #193
  • #194
  • #195
costalpilot said:
Beth said today that the medical files of stephen ray will show that he was foaming at the mouth, and that foaming at the mouth is a symptom of poisoning not heat stroke. and that one doctor thought stephen ray might have been poisoned.

i did a short google search:

1.http://www.medhelp.org/symptomsearch?addterm=Foaming At The Mouth

2.http://tools.aolhealth.com/symptom-checker?addterm=Foaming at the mouth

I realize its only the internet, but neither poison nor heatstroke come up. However, near drowning did come up. and what is drowning but an inability to breathe. I imagine if your being cooked it might be difficult to breathe too. Even James Ray himself knew that difficulty in breathing was going to be a problem since he toid them they might find it easier to breathe by putting their mouth near the ground. And indeed they did that, put their mouths close to the ground, in an attempt to get air.

Just because a doctor has a theory about a critically ill person doesn't mean the doctor has made the correct diagnosis.

I'm sure the defense will find a dr willing to say foaming at the mouth is a symptom of poisoning but I'm equally sure its more likely a result of them not being able to breathe while they were being cooked in a oven.
Click to expand...

BBM

I agree. I know we are dealing with humans but heat stroke causes foaming from the mouth in some dogs, so why not humans?

http://www.ehow.com/list_6153372_causes-foaming-mouth-blindness-dogs_.html
Heat Stroke

  • In some dogs, foaming at the mouth may be a sign of heat stroke. Additional symptoms of heat stroke include heavy panting, vomiting, increased salivation, diarrhea, paleness or gray gums, shallowed breathing, seizures or coma.

:twocents:
​
 
  • #196
RAELON said:
BBM

I agree. I know we are dealing with humans but heat stroke causes foaming from the mouth in some dogs, so why not humans?

http://www.ehow.com/list_6153372_causes-foaming-mouth-blindness-dogs_.html
Heat Stroke

  • In some dogs, foaming at the mouth may be a sign of heat stroke. Additional symptoms of heat stroke include heavy panting, vomiting, increased salivation, diarrhea, paleness or gray gums, shallowed breathing, seizures or coma.

:twocents:
​
Click to expand...

Of Course Heat Stroke causes all those symtoms..however I think the Defense is grasping at straws JUST because the Dr. felt compelled to rule out toxic or others causes...

As an HC provider, it behooves Medical Personal treating any patient to rule out all possible causes, as they never assume it's one thing....IF they dont investigate, then they are blamed for NOT investigating it..It's part of any protocol when making any diagnosis :twocents: BUT, for anyone to suggest Foaming at the mouth ISNT a symptom of Heat Stroke is Inaccurate or lying..I guess you have to look at just who would deny such symptomology :waitasec:
 
  • #197
  • #198
Yikes didnt realize this witness was also Canadian...

BTW they are now on Cross Examination..side bar sorting out things momentarily..
 
  • #199
this witness is good. the defense lawyers are good. thanks for the link. I can listen every now and then. if anyone could summarize the testimony, I would greatly appreciate it.

I am impressed by this witnesses ability to handle these slick lawyers. wish I could listen later. are these trials saved so I can listen later?
 
  • #200
FWIW..Just thought I would add the addition of CO2 poisoning to the mix..We have to remember there were 50+ people enclosed within a extremely HOT enviornment..that had absolutely NO ventilation ( those blue tarps made sure of that)..unlike true Sweat Lodge construction which does allow for Air circulation..Check wiki link for an actual picture of a bonifide Sweat Lodge..

Anyway..here's a link to CO2 Poisoing symptoms, treatments, and causes~~

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/carbon-dioxide-poisoning.html

Carbon Dioxide Poisoning - Symptoms

Mild carbon dioxide poisoning symptoms are:
Muscle twitching
Reduced neural activity
Flushed skin
High blood pressure
As the severity of hypercapnia increases, the following carbon dioxide poisoning symptoms may be experienced:
Headache
Lethargy
Elevated rate of cardiac output
Irregular heartbeat
Panic
Convulsions
Unconsciousness
Eventually death
 
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