GUILTY AZ - Three die in sweat lodge during spiritual retreat, Yavapai County, 8 Oct 2009

  • #201
Of Course Heat Stroke causes all those symtoms..however I think the Defense is grasping at straws JUST because the Dr. felt compelled to rule out toxic or others causes...

As an HC provider, it behooves Medical Personal treating any patient to rule out all possible causes, as they never assume it's one thing....IF they dont investigate, then they are blamed for NOT investigating it..It's part of any protocol when making any diagnosis :twocents: BUT, for anyone to suggest Foaming at the mouth ISNT a symptom of Heat Stroke is Inaccurate or lying..I guess you have to look at just who would deny such symptomology :waitasec:

right but these lawyers are whipping out the smoke and mirrors every chance they get.

good lord, carlos santana?????

personal responsibility and how to live. the lawyer just loves this. any moment the witness may say something the lawyer can twist to JR's advantage. But he is just making the witness look good, thoughtful and knowledgeable. So if the witness ends up with an attitude that hurts Ray, all this philosophizing is gonna cream his godliness.
 
  • #202
this witness is good. the defense lawyers are good. thanks for the link. I can listen every now and then. if anyone could summarize the testimony, I would greatly appreciate it.

I am impressed by this witnesses ability to handle these slick lawyers. wish I could listen later. are these trials saved so I can listen later?
Do you have a DVR so you can tape them? I have AT&T U-Verse and that's what I sometimes do so I can watch them after my daughter has gone to bed...
 
  • #203
roger on the co2 poisoning. I'm sure the Drs finally figured out what the problems were, but when they were unsure they were searching, ruling things out, like they have to.

yeah he has kids, and thats not a cult. now the witness is defining cult for the lawyer. opps. that didnt go well.

this atty is just fishing for anything. but the witness is up for it. its good to see witnesses who can handle lawyers on the stand. Its unusual.

its a good thing his holiness has good lawyers. otherwise he would be in deeper doo doo than he is.

is JR a guru? lawyer got educated on what guru means by the witness, who explained that indeed JR was a guru. Thats not what the lawyer wanted. (never ask a question you dont know the answer to).

opps...change the subject.

waivers.....wow...the witness doesn't remember anything about waivers. I wonder if he's gonna put up the waiver wording on the screen again.

yes he is.

he's gonna elicit the same responses: I didn't read the waivers. Big DEAL.

"you put your hand into the pit"....opps.......witness doesn't buy that description. lawyer apologizes. Oh the emergency personnel thought there might have been c02 poisoning. (But, of course, that wouldn't have been JR's fault, even though he kept telling sick people they could take it!!!!)

editorial....the defense wants you to believe it was C02 poisoning. then it would be the resorts fault for building a hut that poisoned the people. of course they want you to forget that when the people got sick, his holiness told them to stay put. but its not his fault.
 
  • #204
Do you have a DVR so you can tape them? I have AT&T U-Verse and that's what I sometimes do so I can watch them after my daughter has gone to bed...

I don't know how to do that, I've got a mac that has CD's. probably could do it but dont know how.

wow..defense atty. having a tuff time with medical records.

good work by stater.
 
  • #205
gotta go but I don't think this is going good for the d, do you?
 
  • #206
roger on the co2 poisoning. I'm sure the Drs finally figured out what the problems were, but when they were unsure they were searching, ruling things out, like they have to.

yeah he has kids, and thats not a cult. now the witness is defining cult for the lawyer. opps. that didnt go well.

this atty is just fishing for anything. but the witness is up for it. its good to see witnesses who can handle lawyers on the stand. Its unusual.

its a good thing his holiness has good lawyers. otherwise he would be in deeper doo doo than he is.

is JR a guru? lawyer got educated on what guru means by the witness, who explained that indeed JR was a guru. Thats not what the lawyer wanted. (never ask a question you dont know the answer to).

opps...change the subject.

waivers.....wow...the witness doesn't remember anything about waivers. I wonder if he's gonna put up the waiver wording on the screen again.

yes he is.

he's gonna elicit the same responses: I didn't read the waivers. Big DEAL.

"you put your hand into the pit"....opps.......witness doesn't buy that description. lawyer apologizes. Oh the emergency personnel thought there might have been c02 poisoning. (But, of course, that wouldn't have been JR's fault, even though he kept telling sick people they could take it!!!!)

editorial....the defense wants you to believe it was C02 poisoning. then it would be the resorts fault for building a hut that poisoned the people. of course they want you to forget that when the people got sick, his holiness told them to stay put. but its not his fault.

Defense can blame the resort all they want..BUT CO2 poisoning in this case was totally created by JR's need for BIG Bucks..thus so many people cramed into that very tight unventilated space that was hundreds of degree's of heat..which would speed up the processes...

This witness has been in a JRI sweat Lodge previous in 2003 thu JRI international..which he remembers as NOT as HOT..and it did not have a tarp coverings..JR being all omnipotent SHOULD have realized there HAD TO BE Air circulation to be safe...

BTW..Are you aware that the Lakota Nation Sued JR for his misuse of Sweat Lodge..not only in process but in practice...If you look it up..They felt JR used a Manmade Sauna..instead of a bonifide Sweat Lodge...for profit.. I have also heard terms used for JR motives.."Pay to Pray".. It was based on some treaty the Lakota Nation Had with the USA.

IF JR did NOT understand the actual process of Sweat Lodging..Then he is guilty fo Ignorance..Non-credentialed to offer such a program..etc...I'll bet my last dollar JR gave the Sedona Resort specifics for building this SWEAT LODGE..Tho will never admit to it!!
 
  • #207
im back but the cnn ;link doesnt have the trial?

lunch hour im guessin
 
  • #208
im back but the cnn ;link doesnt have the trial?

I think they are having their afternoon break..but have to admit I wasnt listening closely when stream stopped..Will keepmy eye for it !!
 
  • #209
  • #210
Defense can blame the resort all they want..BUT CO2 poisoning in this case was totally created by JR's need for BIG Bucks..thus so many people cramed into that very tight unventilated space that was hundreds of degree's of heat..which would speed up the processes...

This witness has been in a JRI sweat Lodge previous in 2003 thu JRI international..which he remembers as NOT as HOT..and it did not have a tarp coverings..JR being all omnipotent SHOULD have realized there HAD TO BE Air circulation to be safe...

BTW..Are you aware that the Lakota Nation Sued JR for his misuse of Sweat Lodge..not only in process but in practice...If you look it up..They felt JR used a Manmade Sauna..instead of a bonifide Sweat Lodge...for profit.. I have also heard terms used for JR motives.."Pay to Pray".. It was based on some treaty the Lakota Nation Had with the USA.

IF JR did NOT understand the actual process of Sweat Lodging..Then he is guilty fo Ignorance..Non-credentialed to offer such a program..etc...I'll bet my last dollar JR gave the Sedona Resort specifics for building this SWEAT LODGE..Tho will never admit to it!!


no I didn't know they sued, but I'm not surprised. I did my sweat lodge with a Lakota medicine man ( a real one) and it was NOTHING like this pressure cooker and if anyone had indicated they felt like they wanted out at any time, all they had to do was say so, and they could have left and NOBODY would have led the group in group presswure to change their mind.

I thought it was excellent of todays witness to point out that his royal holiness, James Ray, started the "you can do it" chanting when someone wanted to leave, when the defense atty said that several voicers spoke out. But the witness calmly pointed out that yes they did but only after James Ray started it.

This witness was great. I cant believe IS is showing first round ncaa bb games.

score one for truth and justice.
 
  • #211
Im sorry, but this line of questioning outlining the JRI employee's that were within the Sweat Lodge..IF these multiple employees ( Dream Team) were there..WHY did they not assist those collapsed and passed out ???? I know why!!!! because per instructions, JR mandated NO INTERRUPTIONS of Sessions..only when door opened..ala "End of Session"....!!

This guy had no idea there was Dream members there!!

Dont think that is helping to deminish JR's responsibilities!!
 
  • #212
the witness has already testified he didn't know people left. smoke and mirrors.

how could he know people got cooled off outside if he didn't know people left?

smoke and mirrors

personally as a juror I am ticked off that lawyers play these kinds of games to obscure the truth.
 
  • #213
the witness has already testified he didn't know people left. smoke and mirrors.


The biggest hurdle Defense has to get over by their defense of "Free Will"..is that once people go unconscious..THEY CANNOT exercise freewill, nor ability to stop or get themselves to safety..and THATS where JR and his Dream Team failed!! Tight restrictions or rules disabled adequate care to be taken..
Bottomline..THEY are RESPONSIBLE!!

LOL..I rest my case!!:floorlaugh:
 
  • #214
how come the DA asks, did you hear the conversation?

the witness says no

then the DA gets to ask all these specific questions purportedly in the conversation and have the witness have to say he didn't hear each one?

i would have objected
 
  • #215
Im sorry, but this line of questioning outlining the JRI employee's that were within the Sweat Lodge..IF these multiple employees ( Dream Team) were there..WHY did they not assist those collapsed and passed out ???? I know why!!!! because per instructions, JR mandated NO INTERRUPTIONS of Sessions..only when door opened..ala "End of Session"....!!

This guy had no idea there was Dream members there!!

Dont think that is helping to deminish JR's responsibilities!!
I don't like that when they announced that one person had stopped breathing, James Ray said, "We'll deal with it at the end of the next session"
10-15 min. is a long time when a person is NOT breathing. Brain damage can occur rapidly from lack of oxygen...
 
  • #216
awwwwe took a ten minue break because he is upset...Hummmm Its because Liz was a Dream Team Member who ended up dying due to his rules!! and even this witness felt upset for not yelling out...BUT the elephant in the room is..Dream Team and JRI was in total Control of the enviornment..NOT the paying participants who only followed rules!!..

I think witness is going to prove to really help the Pros...It shows just how much control "Participants" really had...

BTW..I heard that the interior square footage was something like 50 or something sq. feet..I did some ready reading and it appeared that when building a sweat lodge the average square footage allowed for 2-3 sq. ft per occupant.. My calculating tells me there had to be at least at east 175 sq. feet for the number he crammed into that heat (Death) trap..Sorry..this attny goes on and on..and his scenerio's are not always based on truthes..only "What Ifs..or..Would it surprise you's"...Its a shame how Def can try and trip up a witness with lies..as IF truthes..then claim Witness not truthfuls... Yikes..these witness dont remember half of what happened..Altered state of reality...

I apologize IF I come across harsh..But victims like this seem to be continued to be victimized by def. teams!!

DO you think JR really feels remorse?? I dont..I think he has regrets..but NO Remorse..or he wouldnt put these victims thru this one step further!!
 
  • #217
I stand corrected..I found the dimensions of this Sweat Lodge..I must have misheard....

http://www.prescottenews.com/news/c...m/13727-update-on-sedona-sweat-lodge-incident

As reported in the article, "Sheriff Waugh Holds Press Conference on Sedona Sweat Lodge Incident" the dimensions of that structure were approximately 74 feet in circumference, or 415 square feet. The outer edge was 30 inches high, and the maximum height in the center was 53 inches, making it impossible for an adult to stand up fully. Covered in blankets and tarps, the only ventilation in the sweat lodge was the single entrance the participants used to get in and out. Heated lava rocks, the size of cantaloupes, were placed inside with pieces of sandalwood, and water was poured over to create steam. It has not been determined how long each of the participants stayed inside, although estimates range from one - two hours. Neither is it known exactly how hot the temperature became.

I apologize..my recall seems to be suffering abit today :thud::couch:
 
  • #218
New Witness..Dr. from Indiana who is more involved in Electronic issues..She is a "Participant" not a witness on medical practice levels...Didnt catch her name tho..It is really hard to catch the starting of feed to catch these things..I am sorry about that !!
 
  • #219
I think witness is going to prove to really help the Pros...It shows just how much control "Participants" really had...

...Its a shame how Def can try and trip up a witness with lies..as IF truthes..then claim Witness not truthfuls... Yikes..these witness dont remember half of what happened..Altered state of reality...

I apologize IF I come across harsh..But victims like this seem to be continued to be victimized by def. teams!!

DO you think JR really feels remorse?? I dont..I think he has regrets..but NO Remorse..or he wouldnt put these victims thru this one step further!!


i agree this was a great witness for the state. sunny was making the pt. that the witnesses so far seemed flakey to her and that the jury might not believe them if they thought that. I don't know why she thought they were flakey. I have thought they were all solid people, but it struck me SHE thouight they were all a bit off, to her liking anyway.

but surely this guy passed her "normal" person test. he was great and I thought the re cross was superb and that the cross wasn't so great.

this public prosecutor is holding her own with all these Harvard, Yale, Stanford law school elites. I'm gonna get her name when I have time, she's great.

I gotta go but your harshness and mine are equal. I really don't know how these defense atty's live with themselves. I guess the $$$$$$ helps a lot.,

oh and I would be happy if the IN Session talking heads ever fall out of love with the defense atty's. Yeah, we get it they are elite, big time, expensive lawyers. Sunny keeps saying James Ray only needs one juror. Actually I almost hope one juror is idiot enough to not get this, and the state re-trys Ray. Lets see how he does with a public defender. Maybe Jose Baez would fly out?

gotta run. appreciate any info and thankx for the link to CNN. appreciate it,
 
  • #220
i agree this was a great witness for the state. sunny was making the pt. that the witnesses so far seemed flakey to her and that the jury might not believe them if they thought that. I don't know why she thought they were flakey. I have thought they were all solid people, but it struck me SHE thouight they were all a bit off, to her liking anyway.

but surely this guy passed her "normal" person test. he was great and I thought the re cross was superb and that the cross wasn't so great.

this public prosecutor is holding her own with all these Harvard, Yale, Stanford law school elites. I'm gonna get her name when I have time, she's great.

I gotta go but your harshness and mine are equal. I really don't know how these defense atty's live with themselves. I guess the $$$$$$ helps a lot.,

oh and I would be happy if the IN Session talking heads ever fall out of love with the defense atty's. Yeah, we get it they are elite, big time, expensive lawyers. Sunny keeps saying James Ray only needs one juror. Actually I almost hope one juror is idiot enough to not get this, and the state re-trys Ray. Lets see how he does with a public defender. Maybe Jose Baez would fly out?


gotta run. appreciate any info and thankx for the link to CNN. appreciate it,


BBM and Underslined~~

Problem with Talking Heads are THEY are never Jurors and only have a working knowledge of their perspective..professionally...And Hey..guess what?..It's the Jurors who decide..and use their lower level "Common Sense"..no high levels of "Def. Stragedies"..Jurors dont give a care..when testimony indicates liabilities....Its a done deal!!

Sorry...I have no time for talking Heads that dont consider "Layperson Persectives"...:rocker:
 

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