Bad News or Overdramatization?

[Jute]

How would anyone ever prove that CPS lost two children?

The FLDS mothers have created this mess by refusing to cooperate with CPS in the first place. They refused to give names, dates of birth, and could not/would not produce any documentation to identify children.

Where's the proof that these two children ever existed, were removed by CPS, and are now lost?

Warren Jeffs preached to his followers that it's ok to lie to the enemy, and it appears the FLDS is following his command.

I've read articles about multiple mothers breastfeeding the same babies; removing or tampering with their own and children's wristbands to confuse identities; instructing the children to lie about their names. I have lost virtually all sympathy for these women; if they sincerely wanted their children back, they would not continue to do everything in their power to ensure that won't happen.

Another name-related issue that I've wondered about, but haven't found an answer to is, when a woman is re-assigned to a new "husband," does her name - and those of her children - change to that of the new "husband"? If that's the case, can you imagine how confused these children are?

 

[Jute]

A judge ordered that the baby boy born to a teenager taken from a polygamist sect's ranch in West Texas be placed in state custody, according to documents released Thursday.

Texas District Judge Barbara Walther signed the order Wednesday giving the state custody of the 1-day-old infant born to a teen believed to be 15 or 16 years old.

The girl has claimed to be 18 and based on a bishop's record used during the custody hearing two weeks ago, she would be 18 now. But officials believe she is younger and placed her in foster care with other children taken from the ranch.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/5747774.html

Even though the CPS believes she is under 18, the Bishop's record lists her age as 18. Which is an issue only in that CPS has taken her into custody. However, besides the newborn, she also has a 20 month old baby. Am I calculating correctly to believe that she was probably under the age of 16 when she conceived the first child?

Also from the article:
"The newborn is the teen's second child; the first is a 20-month-old boy. The father of both children was identified as Jackson Jessop, 22, but state officials say they don't know his whereabouts."

 

[Jute]

I did some checking around. There is a disease called brittle bone disease, osteogenesis imperfecta that does cause fractures in children. So if it is proven that the kids have this, then it could explain the fractures.

However, should note- it is a rare genetic disease. And the attorneys have said there are "several" of the children with this disease.


http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/brittlebones.htm

There are many articles about a genetic disorder that the FLDS are handing down to their children, but it isn't brittle bones, it's Fumarase Deficiency.
"— and began handing down to their descendants a recessive gene for a severe form of mental retardation called Fumarase Deficiency. The birth defect has become increasingly prevalent within the FLDS community since 1990 when it was first identified by Dr. Theodore Tarby, an Arizona pediatric neurologist"

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1732498,00.html

As many articles as I've read on this and other FLDS topics, I've never seen anything relating to brittle bones. Considering that there is genetic proof that there is already one tragic disorder being spread within FLDS because of inbreeding, I'm surprised that Parker would make such a foolish statement.

 

[Leila]

I've read articles about multiple mothers breastfeeding the same babies; removing or tampering with their own and children's wristbands to confuse identities; instructing the children to lie about their names. I have lost virtually all sympathy for these women; if they sincerely wanted their children back, they would not continue to do everything in their power to ensure that won't happen.

Another name-related issue that I've wondered about, but haven't found an answer to is, when a woman is re-assigned to a new "husband," does her name - and those of her children - change to that of the new "husband"? If that's the case, can you imagine how confused these children are?

I don't have any sympathy for the mothers either. Their failure to cooperate indicates that they're hiding something, and knowing the history of the FLDS, we can guess that they've got a lot to hide. It also indicates they're aware that they are guilty of wrong-doing.

You've asked a good question regarding re-assigned wives. I don't know the answer, but I would think that if re-assigning a wife means only that another man is responsible for the well-being of her and her children, she would retain her original married name. If re-assigning means being married and sealed to another husband, then I would think her name would change, although I don't know if the children's names would change too. It's very confusing!

 

[Amraann]

What sorry excuses for mothers!

CPS not divulging the whereabouts of the children does not mean the children are "lost"

I thought it was pretty common for parents not to know what foster home their children where in to avoid abduction by the parents?

 

[Jute]

What sorry excuses for mothers!

CPS not divulging the whereabouts of the children does not mean the children are "lost"

I thought it was pretty common for parents not to know what foster home their children where in to avoid abduction by the parents?

Exactly! The children are in protective custody - while allegations of parental abuse are investigated. Why on earth would CPS tell the parents where the children are?

The people who make up the court and CPS system are human, and humans are far from perfect. The pressure CPS is under in most locations due to too-heavy caseloads results in mistakes and caseworkers make poor judgement calls - they'll even admit it. In this situation, I honestly believe that everyone involved is, at least for now, being SUPER cautious. The children each have an atty. ad litem and a guadian ad litem; each mother has an atty. Every time I see another accusation about critically ill or lost children with no proof - like maybe a full name and those of the parents?? - it makes my blood boil. Parker is beginning to make some some of the less savory "celebrity" attorneys look good - at least they don't generally defend or try to cover up crimes against children. :furious:

 

[Jute]

I don't have any sympathy for the mothers either. Their failure to cooperate indicates that they're hiding something, and knowing the history of the FLDS, we can guess that they've got a lot to hide. It also indicates they're aware that they are guilty of wrong-doing.

You've asked a good question regarding re-assigned wives. I don't know the answer, but I would think that if re-assigning a wife means only that another man is responsible for the well-being of her and her children, she would retain her original married name. If re-assigning means being married and sealed to another husband, then I would think her name would change, although I don't know if the children's names would change too. It's very confusing!

There are different scenarios. If a man dies, his wife is reassigned. If Jeffs got angry at a man and kicked him out, his wife was reassigned. I don't know if that would make a difference or not. More secretiveness.

 

[Leila]

There are different scenarios. If a man dies, his wife is reassigned. If Jeffs got angry at a man and kicked him out, his wife was reassigned. I don't know if that would make a difference or not. More secretiveness.

That would be an excellent question for one of the people who've escaped the FLDS. I believe the women's surname would change, but not the children's surnames. If the FLDS follows the LDS tradition, genealogy is important, and the children would retain their birth name.

Going back to the women not cooperating with the authorities, I was thinking about this last night, and I would term the FLDS women "enablers." Just like alcoholics, whose friends or relatives enable them to continue their destructive behavior by making excuses for them, covering up for them, or giving them the means to continue to drink. The FLDS women are no different, they are enablers as they allow the destructive behavior to continue.

 

[mollymalone]

That would be an excellent question for one of the people who've escaped the FLDS. I believe the women's surname would change, but not the children's surnames. If the FLDS follows the LDS tradition, genealogy is important, and the children would retain their birth name.

Going back to the women not cooperating with the authorities, I was thinking about this last night, and I would term the FLDS women "enablers." Just like alcoholics, whose friends or relatives enable them to continue their destructive behavior by making excuses for them, covering up for them, or giving them the means to continue to drink. The FLDS women are no different, they are enablers as they allow the destructive behavior to continue.

Yes, as many have a vested interest in it, especially if they are wives to someone in the hierarchy who gets their fingers on the money. They dress better, they have better vehicles, homes, goods, etc.
Their children might be chosen to be groomed for better jobs, college even.
If they're a first wife or a favored wife, they wield power over the other wives and all their children. If they're married to someone like Jeffs, or Jessop, that power is increased.

 

[mysteriew]

That would be an excellent question for one of the people who've escaped the FLDS. I believe the women's surname would change, but not the children's surnames. If the FLDS follows the LDS tradition, genealogy is important, and the children would retain their birth name.

Going back to the women not cooperating with the authorities, I was thinking about this last night, and I would term the FLDS women "enablers." Just like alcoholics, whose friends or relatives enable them to continue their destructive behavior by making excuses for them, covering up for them, or giving them the means to continue to drink. The FLDS women are no different, they are enablers as they allow the destructive behavior to continue.

But one thing that differs from the LDS is the reassignment of wives and children. Remember according to what has been said if a wife and her children are reassigned, the children must address the new hubby as their father and may not acknowlege their old father. The new father takes the new children as his own.As they don't allow acknowlegment of the old bonds, that makes me wonder if perhaps they don't also rename the children (last names.) If they follow the LDS at all in geneological records, this might be and probably is recorded in a book somewhere- and the records would also be helpful for breeding purposes.

 

[mysteriew]

Willie Jessop, an FLDS spokesman, said attempts to offer DFPS information about the children's schooling, dietary habits and medical treatment preferences have all been spurned.
Texas officials say the FLDS have had more-than-normal involvement with their children given that this is an ongoing abuse investigation. But John Walsh, a religious studies scholar who is an expert in fundamentalist Mormons, said his overtures to help were rejected.

''CPS wasn't interested in even talking to a Texas resident with a Ph.D. with special expertise on fundamentalist Mormonism,'' said Walsh, who testified at a two-day hearing earlier this month for an attorney representing FLDS fathers. "If I was investigating a Roman Catholic family for child abuse, I think I personally would be more interested in a Ph.D. for background information than I would in someone who had been molested by a priest."
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9148959

He seems to be a bit miffed that he wasn't "consulted." Personally, I find that PhD's many times do not connect with the average person. Sort of like politicians say they do what the people want, but many times have no idea what the people want.

They make a good point about Walsh in the comments.
http://166.70.44.77/comments/read_comments.asp?ref=9148959&sec=News

Essentially that Walsh testified for the FLDS in the hearing, and that Walsh has written several pro FLDS articles.

 

[mysteriew]

"(FLDS) families are upset because many of these guidelines come from dissidents and the parents have been excluded from the process," he said. "When it comes right down to it, this whole situation is about Texas acting on the basis of anti-FLDS propaganda."

Parker said he didn't know of any insensitive remarks from children, but he questioned the motive of Texas reporting such statements. "To characterize the remarks of a child as derogatory remarks is inherently culturally insensitive," he said.

One of the cultural tips incorrectly lists April 6 as Joseph Smith's birthday, indicating it is the sect's only significant holiday.

Jessop said FLDS members celebrate the birth and resurrection of Christ on that date. "That's also when God's New Year begins," she said. Growing up, she said they also celebrated Pioneer Day on July 24, held a "harvest festival" in the fall, and they used to celebrate Thanksgiving, but "Warren took that away, too."
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695275974,00.html

Also interesting in the article is Jessop telling an anecdote about what happened when Warren banned the color red.

 

[mysteriew]

A little more than a third of the foster-care institutions that took FLDS children in state custody are faith-based providers with long and rich histories of helping people.
The fact that some of these Texas facilities have religious ties could be a concern for some because many mainstream Christian religions admittedly do not know a lot about Fundamentalist LDS Church beliefs and practices.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695276465,00.html

 

[mysteriew]

A break down of what is in the model for care.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695276464,00.html

You know I have read the FLDS general complaints about the model for care- but they don't really say that anything is wrong or should be different other than the error about Smith's birthday. If they had complaints and concern about it's affect on the children, you would think they would be asking for a meeting to correct any info they felt was wrong.

I have also been thinking about the model. Does anyone know of any kids of another religion where the CPS has publicly and actively requested their caseworkers make any changes due to the religion? You know they do pick up kids of all religions- Hindu, Buddist, Jewish, Islamic as well as mainstream religions and other lesser known religions. As far as I know, once in the system- they may end up not going to church services or to a different religious service than their own religion.

Yet the FLDS seems to think that these kids should have every aspect of their religion duplicated.

 

[mysteriew]

The federal government should intervene to speed up the return to Canada of a 17-year-old girl who was apprehended during a raid of the Yearning For Zion polygamist compound in Texas, the parents' lawyer says.

The Canadian teenager was among 463 children under 18 years old who were taken into custody during a raid of the isolated compound run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, 523 kilometres southwest of Dallas.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080505.POLYGAMY05/TPStory/National

Parents say they have now talked with their daughter. They say their daughter went to YFZ a few weeks before the raid- not to marry, but to visit her grandmother. Parents complain that no one at CPS or the child's attorney will talk to them. But Canadian consular officials say they have talked with the child's attorney and is providing assistance.

Parents have offered to provide DNA. Allegedly CPS is willing to release the girl if a valid birth certificate is provided.

The tone of the article is harsh. They say the girl was "apprehended."

 

[LinasK]

"(FLDS) families are upset because many of these guidelines come from dissidents and the parents have been excluded from the process," he said. "When it comes right down to it, this whole situation is about Texas acting on the basis of anti-FLDS propaganda."

Parker said he didn't know of any insensitive remarks from children, but he questioned the motive of Texas reporting such statements. "To characterize the remarks of a child as derogatory remarks is inherently culturally insensitive," he said.

One of the cultural tips incorrectly lists April 6 as Joseph Smith's birthday, indicating it is the sect's only significant holiday.

Jessop said FLDS members celebrate the birth and resurrection of Christ on that date. "That's also when God's New Year begins," she said. Growing up, she said they also celebrated Pioneer Day on July 24, held a "harvest festival" in the fall, and they used to celebrate Thanksgiving, but "Warren took that away, too."
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695275974,00.html

Also interesting in the article is Jessop telling an anecdote about what happened when Warren banned the color red.

From this article:
The color red is "not acceptable for clothing" for boys or girls, the guide states. Black Nikes and Crocs shoes of all colors are preferred for girls, except for red Crocs. The guide also indicates FLDS children do not play with red toys.
The red edict also stems from Jeffs, who banned the color after announcing it was reserved for Christ, who would return wearing a crimson robe. "To wear that color before he returned was mocking Christ," she explained.
People reacted differently to Jeffs' red announcement, Jessop said. Some women continued to wear red but didn't replace the clothing with that color once it was worn out, while others immediately threw away all red items, including one woman who ripped out the red rose bushes in her yard and changed them to pink roses.



Okay, now aren't we being a little bit hypocritical about the Red Crocs, what makes them okay when red roses are not even acceptable???:waitasec:

 

[LinasK]

A break down of what is in the model for care.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695276464,00.html

You know I have read the FLDS general complaints about the model for care- but they don't really say that anything is wrong or should be different other than the error about Smith's birthday. If they had complaints and concern about it's affect on the children, you would think they would be asking for a meeting to correct any info they felt was wrong.

I have also been thinking about the model. Does anyone know of any kids of another religion where the CPS has publicly and actively requested their caseworkers make any changes due to the religion? You know they do pick up kids of all religions- Hindu, Buddist, Jewish, Islamic as well as mainstream religions and other lesser known religions. As far as I know, once in the system- they may end up not going to church services or to a different religious service than their own religion.

Yet the FLDS seems to think that these kids should have every aspect of their religion duplicated.

I agree that it's BS! CPS is already bending over backwards to accomodate them, e.g. making sure they don't see TV, etc. They are even accomodating their dietary preferences. But come on, to request that everyone dress like them and look like them????:banghead::banghead::banghead: What do they think they're trying to do, convert the social services workers? I have no pity for them having to deal with a black person or a Jewish person. :boohoo::boohoo::boohoo:They should be glad they're not being beaten and abused on a daily basis.:behindbar

 

[Vegas Bride]

Next thing the mothers will be complaining about is that CPS is allowing the babies to cry when they're hungry or need a changing rather than teaching them to stay silent and "sweet"

VB

 

[LinasK]

:laugh:

Next thing the mothers will be complaining about is that CPS is allowing the babies to cry when they're hungry or need a changing rather than teaching them to stay silent and "sweet"

VB

Good one!

 

[FlowerChild]

Next thing the mothers will be complaining about is that CPS is allowing the babies to cry when they're hungry or need a changing rather than teaching them to stay silent and "sweet"

VB

Yeah, just think of all the "training" the children have already missed
Tsk Tsk Tsk CPS is doing horrible damage to those children......the babies aren't being "broken" with a hand over the mouth, the toddlers aren't being held under water until they are "sweet" and not a single child has gotten a black eye or fallen down and "broken" - despite those "brittle bones" of theirs.

Did anybody read the smoothie recipe the kids ask for (which also seems to be a baby formula)? Almonds, olive oil and honey? What's up with THAT? All that talk about organic, whole foods etc and the kids and babies are being fed smoothies made from almonds, oil and honey? Don't these folks grow any fruit? Oh, I forgot -- probably can't eat strawberries (red), tomatoes (red) raspberries (red) apples (red) some grapes (red) watermelon (red) - I guess it's hard to eat a balanced diet within a color spectrum - even some potatoes and vegetables would be off the list. I looked at the Bible and I didn't see any mention of Jesus making a fashion statement anywhere, when did he have his "colors" done? Who KNEW that red was "his" color? I would think white (you know, indicative of true purity) but what do I know? I guess all us poor infidels that happen to be wearing RED when Jesus comes back are just outta luck in the whole "rapture" department because Jesus will be so PISSED that we appropriated "His" personal color.

All of this "revelation" by the Prophet is so much horsepuckey. Not only is Warren Jeffs a sick twisted little man with a Napoleon Complex, he is either an incredible con man or he needs some serious meds to stop the voices and visions and delusions. IMO he just sits around and pulls ridiculous crap outta his azz and throws it out there to the masses to see just how much they will swallow. It's gotta be a real ego trip to see everyone running around digging up the "wrong color" roses just to follow his "revelation". Sadly, the FLDS are all so brainwashed, they never question anything - they just act in blind obedience to a man - not GOD) a MAN!

I say show the children the REAL WORLD , the one in EVERY COLOR imaginable! A color cannot HURT ANYONE!

My Opinion