Baptist Minister to apologize to those routinely condemned by Christans

[kygal]

But the Bible is open for interpretation, KYgal - there are plenty of Christan Churches that do not teach that the following is wrong: homosexuality, living together before marriage, abortion, women leading men in Christian worship, etc....

Besides - some interpretations of the Bible also teach that it's wrong to have sex during your period, but I've never heard a sermon on that.:waitasec:

He's apologizing for Christianity's self-righteousness. As Christians, we miss the mark when we try to club people over the head with right and wrong. Christ's message did not center on judgment. If Christ is the center of the new testament, we should focus on what he said was the most important thing He came to teach us - To love God with all our hearts and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Not just the neighbors that act like we think they should act.

Jesus's ministry was one of inclusion. Some Christian church's have fallen away from that center, IMHO.

Do they not believe it or do they just not mention it because it'll upset someone and they'll lose money? IMHO, if I was to walk into an unfamiliar church and they said that these were "okay" in the eyes of God, I'd get up and leave. I'd also send the pastor a note/email saying just why.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't apologize for those things (such as arrogant self-righteousness of some) that does go against the teachings in the Bible. I'm also not saying that we should be angry accostors or militant-like against those who believe that these things are right. I think you missed part of what I was saying in the second paragraph -- I wouldn't do it for anything in the world. It's not my human RIGHT to do that sort of thing, besides it's just not a very "christian" thing for me to do. I don't hate anyone for anything -- I'm all for the live and let live approach to the world.

But in truth, the message of Jesus WAS that there is an end to this Earthly realm -- and it WAS judgement by God. He's telling us to prepare ourselves and others as best we can. We are to do this by love and inclusion (on this I agree fully) and not hatefulness and exclusion. If Lee wants to apologize for the hatred and exlusion of some groups over the centuries, then I'm all for that (as it should have been done a long time ago. This would be a great example of both God's forgiveness and humans forgiving, compassioning, and encouraging each other. However, I stand by my statement that if he's going to apologize for the Bible's teachings that he should resign.

I think that we agree in principle. But I think that I'm more wondering about just what he's apologizing for and why. There's a fine line in all this gray matter and I want to know what side of it he's on.

 

[Eire]

Yes, Kygal, but he also teaches that the only person who can judge is God. That's why I walked away from the Christian faith in my teens, too many people telling me that what I thought and felt was wrong. That's between my interpretation of God and me, not the guy next door or the pastor of the church down the block. When one group tells you one thing and another tells you another and two gang up on you to tell you you're going to hell and you're a evil woman simply because you aren't like them, it tends to put one off. It put me off long ago and from what I've seen in recent times, it's not gotten any better.

Frankly, I hate having religious discussions anymore. Mostly because even when they should be about unity and love, they turn in to a big game of "My god can beat up your god." Ironic how that happens.

 

[justche]

Just an FYI- if you see it fairly often, you may want to stop name calling...

It sounded to me that that's what you were blaming it on:

Oh ok, I get it - only you can be catty - good to know.

To be perfectly clear - I stand by my earlier statement. It's ok for you to disagree with it, I stand by it. I think the casualness of abortion - and the total disregard for human life - eeks it's way into the rest of our society. We see much more perversion on children today, than ever.

 

[justche]

But the Bible is open for interpretation, KYgal - there are plenty of Christan Churches that do not teach that the following is wrong: homosexuality, living together before marriage, abortion, women leading men in Christian worship, etc....

Besides - some interpretations of the Bible also teach that it's wrong to have sex during your period, but I've never heard a sermon on that.:waitasec:

He's apologizing for Christianity's self-righteousness. As Christians, we miss the mark when we try to club people over the head with right and wrong. Christ's message did not center on judgment. If Christ is the center of the new testament, we should focus on what he said was the most important thing He came to teach us - To love God with all our hearts and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Not just the neighbors that act like we think they should act.

Jesus's ministry was one of inclusion. Some Christian church's have fallen away from that center, IMHO.

Part of the reason we don't hear about sex during your period anymore, is our hygiene is different in today's world. They didn't exactly have always with wings, or the ease of showers that we have.

By the way - Jesus' ministry was one of inclusion - he did however ask that people "go and sin no more" He and later Paul didn't ever invite the sin into fellowship.

 

[IrishMist]

Oh ok, I get it - only you can be catty - good to know.

To be perfectly clear - I stand by my earlier statement. It's ok for you to disagree with it, I stand by it. I think the casualness of abortion - and the total disregard for human life - eeks it's way into the rest of our society. We see much more perversion on children today, than ever.

It's pretty simple, justche. It's against TOS to call names. I have not called you any names. I also haven't alerted, because frankly, I don't care.

I know several women that have had abortions, and only one did it with what I would consider to be casualness. (She is 52 now, and this was in her early 20's.) Every other woman I know and have talked to about it took it very seriously. I believe the vast majority of them take it seriously.

And, as an aside- just because a person has an abortion, doesn't mean they disregard life. Life just isn't that simple, or that black and white. Lots of gray areas.

As far as perversion, I think we just hear about it more often today. Not that it happened less back in the day.

 

[hoppyfrog]

We see much more perversion on children today, than ever.

We may HEAR more about it, but that doesn't mean there is more of it.

I believe there was just as much in the past, but no one talked about it.

Hoppy

 

[kygal]

Yes, Kygal, but he also teaches that the only person who can judge is God. That's why I walked away from the Christian faith in my teens, too many people telling me that what I thought and felt was wrong. That's between my interpretation of God and me, not the guy next door or the pastor of the church down the block. When one group tells you one thing and another tells you another and two gang up on you to tell you you're going to hell and you're a evil woman simply because you aren't like them, it tends to put one off. It put me off long ago and from what I've seen in recent times, it's not gotten any better.

Frankly, I hate having religious discussions anymore. Mostly because even when they should be about unity and love, they turn in to a big game of "My god can beat up your god." Ironic how that happens.

Yes, Eire, and I completely agree with you. I think that I may have both offended and confused some with what I've been trying to say. For both I am sorry.

Let me try this. I have MANY friends that are gay/lesbian. Do they know what I think? Yes. Have I talked to them about what I think? Yes. Do they think that I'm going to ram it down their throat? NO. Do they still come by, bring some of their kids/relatives to play with my children? Yes. Have any of them been to church with me? Yes, a couple.

Was I the most popular one at the ladies' reception? Oh probably the opposite. Matter of fact, my own SIL told me that if I didn't ditch about half of my friends I'd be in hell. My response -- she'll be right next to me for the hatred in her own heart. I don't believe that by being hateful and self-righteous you're automatically granted a key by Saint Peter at the gates.

I do agree that we all as Christians have some reason to say that we are sorry to groups that aren't as we'd like to see. You're right that however ANY of us are or do is COMPLETELY between US and GOD. I've never doubted that and have been criticized for it more than once. However, I refuse to sit in a church where a pastor can actually get up and say that the Bible is too harsh for us today and that we should ignore sins in OURSELVES. WE CAN'T CHANGE OTHERS -- NOR SHOULD WE TRY BY HATRED OR ACCOSTING! We are to show God in our lives by loving all, hating none, and doing the best we can to show the goodness of God in everyday life.

If he is going to use this as a lesson in how to treat and minister to those different than us, then I commend him for it and would personally love to hear it. But if he's going to say "Sorry that the Bible is too much, and we'll just assume that now it's okay," then I can't abide with that. THAT is PERSONAL between me and what I believe of God. Some might agree and others might not. I hope that I've made myself a little more clear on what I mean. Probably not, but I've tried my best.

 

[justche]

We may HEAR more about it, but that doesn't mean there is more of it.

I believe there was just as much in the past, but no one talked about it.

Hoppy

I agree it's always been there, but I do believe it's more today. We are more global than ever in the past. The internet connects people in a way that it never used to - I believe it's always been there. Someone in the past may have been sexually attracted to a child, but wouldn't have acted on it, because there wasn't access. It was much more difficult in the past for the pedophiles to have their groups. It's much easier for them to transmit photo's of children now, which creates a larger market.

The media also makes every story a local story. Look at Chester Stiles, we all felt for that little girl, she could have been any of our neighbors or friend's kid. The plus side to this, is it's easier to find people now I think.

It also makes this one baptist minister the subject of a thread here.

 

[Truly]

kygal, I think that you and your postings come across as friendly and loving. You are clearly not intending to hurt or offend anyone.

The underlying offensivness (which this pastor is hopefully apologizing for) is the attitude that some Christians seem to think that they are the only ones who can correctly interpret the bible. Even if they have 'friends who are gay', they are still deep in their hearts condemning others as some sort of an abomination. That type of attitude is very ugly and offensive.

Live and let live means more than avoiding hating or accosting your friends and neighbors. It means not judging them. You correctly say that you can't change others by hatred or accosting...how about not trying to change them at all? How about accepting that their life is personal between them and what they believe of their god, precisely as it is for you? In other words, their lives are exactly as valid as yours. Most people do not wish to be 'ministered to' from someone who thinks they know what god wants for another person's life. I can see how that type of attitude can come across as a very unwelcome arrogance.

Live and let live. Good advice.

 

[kygal]

kygal, I think that you and your postings come across as friendly and loving. You are clearly not intending to hurt or offend anyone.

The underlying offensivness (which this pastor is hopefully apologizing for) is the attitude that some Christians seem to think that they are the only ones who can correctly interpret the bible. Even if they have 'friends who are gay', they are still deep in their hearts condemning others as some sort of an abomination. That type of attitude is very ugly and offensive.

Live and let live means more than avoiding hating or accosting your friends. It means not judging them. You correctly say that you can't change others by hatred or accosting...how about not trying to change them at all? How about accepting that their life is personal between them and what they believe of their god, precisely as it is for you? In other words, their lives are exactly as valid as yours. Most people do not wish to be 'ministered to' from someone who thinks they know what god wants for another person's life. I can see how that type of attitude can come across as a very unwelcome arrogance. Live and let live. Good advice.

I agree completely. I don't try -- the ones I have talked to about it have ASKED me -- and they know better than to ask me anything unless they want the answer. I try my best to live my own life in a way that I might be of help to them in some way -- regardless of what they think, feel, or believe about anything. By "ministering" I don't mean teaching or convincing them of anything, I mean giving them or helping them find whatever it is they need to be complete as a person. It could be physical (shelter, food) or emotional (just an ear to listen) as well as spiritual. I too am repelled by those who try to gang up and decide who's going where after death -- and I've been there too several times (on the judged end and not the judging). I myself have stopped attending church regularly after the afore-mentioned incident between myself and SIL (a woman who won't eat devil's food cake or own a Dirt Devil vaccuum becuase the word "devil" is in it ).

I believe that my only REAL job as a Christian is to prepare MYSELF for what God wants ME to do -- I wouldn't have a clue what to expect of others as that's between them and God or whatever they do/don't believe in.

 

[southcitymom]

Do they not believe it or do they just not mention....

My denomination - an old mainstream Christian denomination - has gay bishops, women priests and people in all level of service who live with partners without being married. So - I'm pretty sure they believe it and don't just "not talk about it" for the sake of losing money.

Does everyone who is a member of my denomination believe it? Maybe not - but the church practices it - wow - all of those things "in direct contradiction of the Bible"

This is just me saying - we all interpret the Bible a little differently, so to say the Bible is crystal clear on thoses issues is just not accurate.

 

[southcitymom]

.... the casualness of abortion -

None of the women (and men) I know who have had abortions considered it a casual experience.

 

[southcitymom]

Part of the reason we don't hear about sex during your period anymore, is our hygiene is different in today's world...

That's an awesome interpretation of the Bible! But I know some folks who still follow that dictate because they believe that nothing in today's world (hygienic or otherwise) changes the original word of the Bible. And that's their awesome interpretation of the Bible.

I get down with your interpretation, but that doesn't make theirs wrong.

 

[southcitymom]

kygal, I think that you and your postings come across as friendly and loving. You are clearly not intending to hurt or offend anyone.

The underlying offensivness (which this pastor is hopefully apologizing for) is the attitude that some Christians seem to think that they are the only ones who can correctly interpret the bible. Even if they have 'friends who are gay', they are still deep in their hearts condemning others as some sort of an abomination. That type of attitude is very ugly and offensive.

Live and let live means more than avoiding hating or accosting your friends and neighbors. It means not judging them. You correctly say that you can't change others by hatred or accosting...how about not trying to change them at all? How about accepting that their life is personal between them and what they believe of their god, precisely as it is for you? In other words, their lives are exactly as valid as yours. Most people do not wish to be 'ministered to' from someone who thinks they know what god wants for another person's life. I can see how that type of attitude can come across as a very unwelcome arrogance.

Live and let live. Good advice.

There's so much I like about this post. Well said!!:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[southcitymom]

.....SIL (a woman who won't eat devil's food cake or own a Dirt Devil vaccuum becuase the word "devil" is in it ).

Are we related? Your SIL might be my mother!!

 

[Eire]

None of the women (and men) I know who have had abortions considered it a casual experience.

It certainly wasn't casual in my experience or the experiences of other women I know. For some, maybe it is as casual as, oh say, buying a gallon of milk. But, for the majority, it is a heartbreaking, highly emotional experience.

 

[Truly]

Do they not believe it or do they just not mention it because it'll upset someone and they'll lose money? IMHO, if I was to walk into an unfamiliar church and they said that these were "okay" in the eyes of God, I'd get up and leave. I'd also send the pastor a note/email saying just why.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't apologize for those things (such as arrogant self-righteousness of some) that does go against the teachings in the Bible. I'm also not saying that we should be angry accostors or militant-like against those who believe that these things are right. I think you missed part of what I was saying in the second paragraph -- I wouldn't do it for anything in the world. It's not my human RIGHT to do that sort of thing, besides it's just not a very "christian" thing for me to do. I don't hate anyone for anything -- I'm all for the live and let live approach to the world.

But in truth, the message of Jesus WAS that there is an end to this Earthly realm -- and it WAS judgement by God. He's telling us to prepare ourselves and others as best we can. We are to do this by love and inclusion (on this I agree fully) and not hatefulness and exclusion. If Lee wants to apologize for the hatred and exlusion of some groups over the centuries, then I'm all for that (as it should have been done a long time ago. This would be a great example of both God's forgiveness and humans forgiving, compassioning, and encouraging each other. However, I stand by my statement that if he's going to apologize for the Bible's teachings, that he should resign.

I think that we agree in principle. But I think that I'm more wondering about just what he's apologizing for and why. There's a fine line in all this gray matter and I want to know what side of it he's on.

Why would anybody suggest that their religious views or their interpretation of the bible is the only correct view? This guy is a preacher; I expect he has also read and studied and interpreted the bible. Why can't you just allow that he has his own views and his own relationship with god, and be ok with that?

Why do some Christians feel the need to export their views onto other people's lives? Not trying to be rude, this is just the most annoying thing about the Christians who think that they and only they know what god wants. What does it matter what other people do or believe (so long as they are not committing a crime, obviously)?

I totally support your choice to walk out if you don't agree with the teachings of a particular church. Every single person has that same right to make their own choices. I have never understood why some people feel the need to insist that their personal religious beliefs should apply to everyone else. It has so often been done by religious zealots at the point of a gun, and I applaud your personal kindness, but why judge others perception of god and their own life at all? It is not your call to say what anyone else should do or believe, or if their life is right or wrong. I am only guessing from your comments about what you told your friends when they asked you. Why not just allow that you live your life, and they live theirs, and each life is equally valid and good and right in the eyes of each person's perception of god?

Nice to talk to you, this is an interesting discussion.

 

[txsvicki]

I bet this preacher is just some independent Baptist trying to gain members. Except for couples just living together, his topics are political issues. The Baptist way is not to condemn anyone but to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and salvation through grace not works. What people decide to do with their lives they might answer for, but whether or not they're condemned to Hell depends on the above teaching, according to Baptists. True Christians can pretty much figure out what the Bible really teaches on all these subjects and everything else.

 

[kygal]

I guess I'm the zealot, hater, religious freak then. Fine, I've been called that on both sides of many issues and it doesn't bother me.

However, realize that all of you have attacked and accosted me much the same way as you all are saying that I have condemned. I have never said that any of you are wrong for anything you've done, nor that you MUST believe what I do. But here's what I HAVE done:

I've stated that the Bible does directly state against all BUT living together (and that it does indirectly). I've stated my opinion that a leader in the Church should not only teach forgiveness to all (and how to dispense it) but that there are certain things we are to believe morally wrong. I have stated that I don't have the right to tell anyone what to do/think/believe and that I've not done so unless asked. The friends that have asked know how I feel and know that I don't treat them any differently than anyone of the friends I have in my own church.

I'm sorry that I wasn't aware that only agreeing opinions should be posted on this topic or any threads in these forums. But I believe my opinion just as much as you do yours. So with that I'll agree to disagree and let you all go on with your peaceful little agreement fest.

ETA: I believe as much as anyone else that I am a TRUE CHRISTIAN, just as much as anyone else of this faith. To me that is as much as an attack on me personally as anything else you have said. I've not judged anyone on what's been said here, nor have I said that anyone is not a true christian -- including the pastor of the topic.

 

[Truly]

I bet this preacher is just some independent Baptist trying to gain members. Except for couples just living together, his topics are political issues. The Baptist way is not to condemn anyone but to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ and salvation through grace not works. What people decide to do with their lives they might answer for, but whether or not they're condemned to Hell depends on the above teaching, according to Baptists. True Christians can pretty much figure out what the Bible really teaches on all these subjects and everything else.

So...are you saying that he is not a True Christian?

It seems as though all of the topics he mentioned referred to 'couples just living together'. Gay couples...unplanned pregnancies...these are personal. Of course, the personal is political lol.

This is the first Baptist preacher I have ever heard. He sounds more like Jesus than the usual hellfiredamnation types. Of course, we must remember that it was the followers of Jesus who strung him up in the end. So I am not surprised that True Christians would condemn this preacher.