barbara mackle ransom note discredits some RDI RN pet theories

  • #21
I have never heard of that case, how fascinating -

Me, neither.

I see your point but in that case the child actually was kidnapped, yes? no body hidden in the wine cellar?

I think that fact, not just the length of the ramsey RN, is what really gets us RDI going.

Among other reasons. As so often happens, the big picture is overlooked. It sounds to me like the kidnapper already had this note written before he grabbed her OR he made it up after he had her secure. That's not what IDI claims happened in JB's case. Rather, we are asked to believe that a complete stranger wrote it in the house, having no conception of how long the Rs would be gone.

You have done well, voynich.
 
  • #22
It cuts the other way -- if Rs wanted to stage a kidnapping, and they had time and opportunity to hide some items like tape and paintbrush, etc., they had time to hide JB's body. Like Scott Peterson allegedly did w/Lacy.

Those little objects would be a lot easier to hide than a body. Less sentimental value, too. I actually satisfied that question in my mind a long time ago.

If you want to claim they did not carry the body out for fear of being caught, that could apply to an IDI as well.

I think that was a small part of it. But there was, IMO, another reason, one which would not necessarily apply to IDI as well.
 
  • #23
Exactly my point, I got a pm pointing to this case btw. I've heard the shall we say

RDIST

Would you mind spelling that one out for me, pilgrim?
 
  • #24
One thing that struck me, was that there may be some cultural dissonance in my cynicism about kidnappings for ransom since I can only come up with this case over here in the past thirty-odd years:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/7/newsid_2516000/2516085.stm

I can't imagine that it's common in the US, but is it sufficiently rare that LE would be doubtful of the kidnapping for ransom being genuine even without the JBR circumstances?
 
  • #25
Respectfully snipped.

Ames, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it was your stance that although Patsy did the actual writing, that the words were John's and that she simply dictated what John said??? I thought I read that it was your thought that the "Listen Carefully" part of the note was because Patsy was simply writing what John told her to write, and she inadvertently included the "Listen Carefully" part because that is what he was saying to her.

If that is truly your stance and thought process on the RN, then how is that you say Patsy was going overboard trying to explain things the more she wrote?

Yep, I am the one that said that. And I DO believe that John dictated to Patsy what to write. But, if you read the rest of my posts about that...I go on to say that ...IMO...that Patsy ad-libbed her own thoughts and phrases into that note too. (Her words and Johns word were ENTWINED into the note, kinda like Patsy's fibers in the garotte). That is why the experts agreed that it had a feminine touch. For example...I advise you to be well rested...I believe was Patsy, and not John. And I believe that John didn't know that she did that, until it was too late, and there was no time to re-write it. IMO...if she had of stuck with what he had dictated to her, the note wouldn't have been as long. Her ramblings made it longer than it was supposed to be.
 
  • #26
Hi guys, thanks so much for all your thoughts and opinions on this case. :clap: you guys are the best! I was wondering do we have any updates now that the case is reopened? I had no idea where to post this so if it needs to be deleted, yea lol do so as needed. I was just wondering if there are any updates or if anyone is keeping tabs on that.
TIA! :blowkiss:
 
  • #27
In all honesty, HOTYH, I think parents would part with a paltry (for them at least) 118k even if they had no proof she was alive. And, as a kind of parenthetical meandering, you'd think kidnappers would take better care of their collateral. Similarly, though, the knots on the wrist were loose and wouldn't have subdued my 8 month old never mind a 6 year-old. And the duct tape was applied after death if the lip marks are anything to go by. Anyone would think that they weren't actually intended to subdue a child....

If the parents wanted a convincing kidnapping for ransom scenario portrayed, they'd have chosen an appropriate, believeable amount. Remember, in RDI the RN was 'explaining' JBR dead in the basement, so the amount of the ransom wouldn't be lowballed because they wouldn't need to 'part' with any money, as you've claimed. JR and PR working together would come up with an appropriate ransom, and its agreed that 118K was low.

The ligature 'too loose to do anything' is the standard assumption/line for RDI. It exposes a naivety with RDI where all items found at the crime scene are static. In fact, the 'loose' 2nd ligature actually supports the botched kidnapping idea because the 2nd ligature would've never been used as it was originally intended.
 
  • #28
Hi guys, thanks so much for all your thoughts and opinions on this case. :clap: you guys are the best! I was wondering do we have any updates now that the case is reopened? I had no idea where to post this so if it needs to be deleted, yea lol do so as needed. I was just wondering if there are any updates or if anyone is keeping tabs on that.
TIA! :blowkiss:

Last thing I read is that the DA's office went out of their way to exhonerate the R's, because of new DNA evidence.
 
  • #29
Last thing I read is that the DA's office went out of their way to exhonerate the R's, because of new DNA evidence.

hmmmm i hope so bad they figure this out!!! thanks for the update!:blowkiss:
 
  • #30
hmmmm i hope so bad they figure this out!!! thanks for the update!:blowkiss:

Actually, last I heard, the police had taken control of the case back.
 
  • #31
  • #32
  • #33
Voynich -

Very interesting. I had never heard of that case before. So, she was taken to an area of South Berkeley Lake road?

Yes, and interesting, SB -- TC though not accounted for.
 
  • #34
I have good news for you. The RN wars have begun.

That's not news. They've been waging for a long time.

Wheel of Fortune ---

RST
RDIST

RDIST= any new IDI supporting information or evidence will be taken out of context, distorted, abused, and finally discarded, in a matter of minutes.

Well, if you didn't have a war before, you've sure got one now.
 
  • #35
But it was a "KIDNAPPING" gone bad, in the first place...if it truly was IDI. So, what's the difference....actually carrying out the dead body of a kidnap victim, would be more quieter, and less noticable...than trying to carry out a kicking, screaming 6 year old. So, then what you say..(bolded in red)..doesn't hold water.

What you say is true, but it would be equally true for the R's to carry out their dead kid than one kicking and screaming, and an even better for their staging.
 
  • #36
If the parents wanted a convincing kidnapping for ransom scenario portrayed, they'd have chosen an appropriate, believeable amount. Remember, in RDI the RN was 'explaining' JBR dead in the basement, so the amount of the ransom wouldn't be lowballed because they wouldn't need to 'part' with any money, as you've claimed. JR and PR working together would come up with an appropriate ransom, and its agreed that 118K was low.

Apart from the fact that genuine kidnappers - certainly strangers or foreigners - would never in a billion years have alit upon that amount. Why not 120k or 100k? 118 may admittedly have had some significance for someone with a grudge against the Ramseys or for someone who didn't really understand the Ramseys' wealth (although if they didn't understand it, then why pick on them and if it's just pure malice, why not just remove JB and never let the Ramseys know whether she is alive or dead?). The Ramseys may have planned complying with their own instructions in order to confound LE and alit upon 118k as an amount they could afford and liquidate easily or because they had no clue how much kidnappers would demand.


Regarding loose ligatures, I can't think that a kidnapper would have much trouble tying a little bairn's hands together behind her back or in front of her. Above her head and falling off all over the place speaks to either someone having no clue or, perhaps to rigor mortis already setting in. If the latter, then discerning the motive of the kidnapper in even bothering to tie the ligatures is nigh-on impossible. If the former, we are coming back to an odd mix of intimate knowledge of the Ramseys and their home and utter lack of planning.
 
  • #37
Last thing I read is that the DA's office went out of their way to exhonerate the R's, because of new DNA evidence.

I think the DA's office handed the case back to the police who were going back to square one as much as possible. Certainly the new DA and Beckner were careful not to eliminate or exonerate anyone. I believe Lacy herself said that no one could be cleared until there was a conviction....
 
  • #38
And I believe that John didn't know that she did that, until it was too late, and there was no time to re-write it. IMO...if she had of stuck with what he had dictated to her, the note wouldn't have been as long. Her ramblings made it longer than it was supposed to be.

No time? They could have called police anytime early morning they wanted. They can claim they "woke up" at 8am. They can claim they searched the RN and found it it some obscure place like the bathroom, or that they first found their daughter dead, and later found the RN.

If it was longer than it was supposed to be, JR and PR could, you know,

START OVER.
 
  • #39
Among other reasons. As so often happens, the big picture is overlooked. It sounds to me like the kidnapper already had this note written before he grabbed her OR he made it up after he had her secure. That's not what IDI claims happened in JB's case. Rather, we are asked to believe that a complete stranger wrote it in the house, having no conception of how long the Rs would be gone.

.

How much time do you think it took Rs to write this RN?
 
  • #40
That's not news. They've been waging for a long time.

Err-- That's what Count Dooku said to Sidious episode 2, near the end, after his duel with Obi Ani Yoda but before Qui Gon was burned & Mace & Yoda were discussing the rule of 2.


Well, if you didn't have a war before, you've sure got one now.

excellent. His sacrifice was necessary for I will soon have a new apprentice, one far younger and more powerful.
 

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