Belgium - Police raid Catholic Bishops and Archdiocese

[Irish Frieke]

What is even more horrifying to me, however, is the extensive cover-up, apparently even at the highest levels of the Church. There is no question that many, maybe even most, Church authorities put the convenience and comfort of the institution (not to mention their own careers) over the well-being of its most vulnerable members. At least with the actual pedophiles, we can recognize their illness, even without excusing their behavior. But how else can we judge their bureaucratic accomplices, who made rational decisions to abet evil, except to condemn in the harshest terms the obvious evil of those decisions!

This scandal needn't destroy anyone's faith in God or even their trust in the vast numbers of individual priests who deserve our respect and gratitude for their devotion to piety and good works. (The priests I have known personally are been great humanitarians, in my judgment.)

Okay, there. I've said it. Mods will delete this if necessary. In my view, however, I am not attacking anyone's religion. The issue here is institution crimes and misconduct, not theology.

Nova, you said it just right. I have also known scores of good priests and used to be involved in my local parish. After my mother died, I became more sceptic and now, I want to believe, but am not sure.
these scandals don't help and the best the church hierarchy could do is beat a great big "mea culpa", but we all know that will never happen.

 

[Filly]

The search could be a conspiracy against the church set up by the Masons

And the Dutch progress in The World Cups. Perhaps a conspiracy by the Masons as well?:innocent:

IF, you did a good job with your first links. Too bad I'm an ignorant American that can't read a lick of any other language except for English.

Oh wait that's my Catholic school education got me there. Honestly I have to say we were taught quite well by the Nuns. I always be sure to throw that in. I have great respect for those poor women who had education themselves and had to deal with other people's snot nosed kids. Speaking for myself of course.

Now maybe if they would have let women have a hand in the Church?

 

[Filly]

I did the whole nine yards when my daughter was in Catholic school too. Now, I just flat out couldn't walk in the door. I cringe and my stomach tightens at the very thought of it.

Sending you love and light dear Belinda.:blowkiss:

My DD won't go to Mass. However it has nothing to do with the horrific abuse of our children or the cover up. An all girl's private Catholic school and I can't tell you the number of them that proclaimed to be "ecclectic witches". My DD decided first on agnostic and then atheism. Recently she asked me if she could have my great grams Blessed Mother Medal. Honestly I felt a bit of relief. She then tells me she wants to lend it to her friend who is Jewish?:waitasec:

We're all good souls here at WS I believe. Sorry O/T but had to interject a little positive here.

 

[Belinda]

That's odd, Filly. My daughter is also an atheist now. I don't know what I am anymore. Probably more agnostic than anything.

 

[believe09]

O/T but on topic....I live in a suburb. In a tiny Catholic Church a few towns over the long time priest was outed in the media as having been charged with sexual abuse of children and was being included in a large class action suit-within a week of the story hitting the papers, he was dead of complications from diabetes.

It took some time to get his position filled, but finally the diocese sent someone to take over and things went back to normal-until about 10 months into the service of the new priest, he was outed in the media for the sexual abuse of children and was included in a class action suit against the church. Guess what? Within a week of the story, he was also dead of complications from diabetes.

This is a perfectly true story. And two things struck me-first of all that it amply demonstrates how the church moved these offenders from pillar to post, into tiny unsuspecting parishes and out as missionaries all over the world in an attempt to cover up their offenses. And secondly, that death from complications of diabetes seems to be a statistical anomoly in small town Catholic priests...

 

[believe09]

So, check this out:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_pope_abuse_usa

The SJC refused to hear an appeal by the Vatican regarding a lawsuit filed in Oregon attempting to close the gap between clergy sex abuse in the US and the Vatican. Basically, the Vatican claimed immunity based upon being a foreign country operating in the US.

huh? says Believe09

In any case, if you read the article in detail, attorneys for the Vatican will NOW attempt to declare that each church is basically a franchise of the Church, THEREFORE the Vatican holds no legal responsibility for employees of the church that are outside Vatican City.

Believe09 says huh, again...

Wondering how most Catholics would feel if they knew they had been jettisoned in this fashion...

 

[believe09]

The reason I put the above article here is because I can now see exactly what the Belgium police were attempting to avoid. Jon Doe, of the lawsuit, was abused in the 1960's. By a priest who molested children all over the world, and who was eventually relocated to Oregon. 1960's-now. That is a LONG TIME to wait for closure.

 

[Belinda]

The Pope needs to stop talking out of both sides of his mouth. They claim whatever is most beneficial to them at the time. Truth has no place in the Catholic church.

 

[Nova]

Well said, Nova. You mean support them financially? Honestly I haven't done that since my DD got out of grade school. You know "the envelope" and such.

O/T sort of. I always wondered how much of that money went towards helping our Nuns. I had Sister's Of Saint Joseph. These women are now if still alive very elderly. Other Nuns care for them. Basically I think any money that supports them wouldn't come from collection? I'd put money in the basket for the Sister's any old day. They're not in on the cover up.

Thank you Nova.

Filly, I honestly don't know the breakdown of where Catholic contributions go. I'm sure much of the money goes toward very worthy causes and needy individuals.

 

[Missizzy]

If I ran the Vatican, I'd be more than a little concerned with the Oregon case surfacing in Portland. They must have short memories, over there in Vatican City. Mr. Kelly Clark took the Boy Scouts to the cleaners in Portland just over a month ago.

On a personal note, I am not Catholic but my sweet husband was raised in the church. His upbringing seemed so shocking to me at the time but I am no longer shocked. He was raised in a very poor staunchly Catholic family by a domineering and abusive father and a kind but worn out mother. My mother-in-law (bless her) gave birth to her 10 children in a little less than 11 years. She only lived to 58. All the children attended Catholic grade school and I have heard the horror stories. I can handle the ruler whacking (awful as it is) but the coldness of the nuns, as described by my husband, breaks my heart. Why teach children if you don't enjoy children? Aren't there other nun-ly tasks?

My husband was the second born and is the oldest boy. His father was extremely involved in the Knights of Columbus and always bragging about the good he was doing for others. All the while, in his own home, he mercilessly raped his daughters and beat his sons. My husband escaped first into the Boy Scouts (a very unique and adventurous troop) and later to my family home. Yes, we lived together in my parent's home during our Senior year of high school, before marrying. My husband has endured a lifetime of guilt over leaving his younger siblings behind. The daughters and an aunt had a confrontation with my father-in-law several years ago but the SOL had run out. His local police dept. is aware of the disclosures, however.

When we married, my husband left the church. To this very day, he will not identify himself as ever having been a Catholic or his history with the Boy Scouts (even though I know he loved the experience). His reasoning? He hates to have people make the assumption that he was abused by a priest or a Boy Scout leader.

Isn't that tragic? What a legacy for a church to imprint on their flock.

 

[Filly]

Aren't there other nun-ly tasks?

Indeed. I do them every day.:innocent:

Izzy just to answer your question. Back in the day they didn't get to choose what they would do. Enjoy teaching? They were Nuns. They weren't supposed to enjoy anything. There's also many different Orders and they each have diverse duties.

I'm so sorry about your hubby's horrible experience with the Sisters. For us though it was almost a right of passage. "Yeah, and then Sister Mary Claire grabbed my hair and yelled I was a hussy". I saw a Nun hang a kid out a window. Put people's heads in dirty buckets of water. I've recanted before I was excorcised of my boy craziness by a Nun weilding a can of Lysol. It always got blamed on their sexual frustration. Mostly by boys in 8th grade who had boobies on the brain.

I know this thread is about the horrific priests, but just wanted to clarify how it works with the Nuns. Today is different. They don't even wear habits some of them. Dye their hair. You name it. I want my Nuns in habits.

BTW, they are great manipulators as well. Good business women. They'd get kids dad's to give them whatever product they made at the plant. Get parents to give them rides some place. Saint Teresa Of Avila was famous for manipulating men to get her loot.

Sorry for the O/T. I wanted to be a Nun. I'm gonna link you to a really cool Order here in Philly. Cloistered. Yep!

 

[Belinda]

However, Filly, I believe it is mainly nuns who have perpetrated a lot of the physical abuse, especially in Ireland.

 

[Missizzy]

Man, you learn something everyday. I had no idea that nuns had no choice over their assignment. Now that really makes sense, doesn't it? One would think that they'd do vocational evaluations as they do in the military to see where a person's strengths were. No doubt, the sexually repressed, angry ones could have done a decent job knitting socks (those would be some neat and tight stitches, there), dishing out soup, or editing newsletters.

Why were they put in charge of "God's little lambs"?

Filly, if it makes you feel any better about the boy crazy stuff, I had the same problem in a public junior high. My sewing teacher, Miss Mullen, hated me. I was a sweet and respectful girl too, I promise you. She actually wrote a note to my mother (which I still have) which says that, "SJ will never amount to much as she's far too interested in the boys". Gave me my only F of my entire school career. I was mortified.

Well, Miss Mullen, I sew and knit with the best of them and I guess I'm still interested in those boys--raised nine of 'em I did. Old prune. Why do some teachers get so much glee out of cruelty to children? I don't get it. Nuns or not.

And thank you for reminding me Filly that nun-ly acts can be done anywhere. The way you care for your Momma, has been duly noted by the guy upstairs (God too).

 

[believe09]

My dad was brutalized in parochial school. A stranger would have been arrested for assault and battery not to mention torture. It took my breath away. And it was nuns.

But I have a friend who loves caring for nuns-she would have been one herself if given the opportunity-she has introduced me to some lovely, lovely people who were shiny inside and out. Really. I like to think it balances out some of the degredation my dad experienced.

 

[Belinda]

My husband went to Catholic school and suffered some pretty good beatings. He doesn't say much about it. I wonder a lot about his school days. When we were discussing sending our daughter to Catholic school, I told him flat out that if they ever touched her I would take care of business and I wasn't playing. Luckily things had changed by then and we didn't have any problems. I would have never stood for someone laying a hand on my child. I, frankly, don't understand why parents put up with it back then as the accepted thing.

 

[believe09]

My husband went to Catholic school and suffered some pretty good beatings. He doesn't say much about it. I wonder a lot about his school days. When we were discussing sending our daughter to Catholic school, I told him flat out that if they ever touched her I would take care of business and I wasn't playing. Luckily things had changed by then and we didn't have any problems. I would have never stood for someone laying a hand on my child. I, frankly, don't understand why parents put up with it back then as the accepted thing.

I know I am taking everyone O/T, but my father was brutalized at home as well by his off the boat from Ireland family who believed clergy was to be respected and revered regardless of their behavior. The parish priest, to their minds, was one step under God.

These were hard drinking mean people. When my dad was 13 he rescued his mother from yet another brutal beating at the hands of HIS father by holding a butcher knife to his father's throat. But my grand mother was just as bad. My uncle ran away at 15 and joined the Navy.

In any case, coming home with black eyes etc from school was likely to invoke a second round of abuse from his family....

 

[Mercyneal]

I am grateful for the Supreme Court's action vis a vis the Vatican. This makes up for their atrocious decision in 2003, with Stogner v. California . Marion Stogner, a male pedophile and inmate in California, challenged California's one year window that allowed victims of sexual abuse to come forward no matter how long ago, and file a criminal case. The Supreme Court threw out that law, which resulted in many pedophiles being set free from prison.
That decision in 2003 also ended the first criminal investigation into Dr. William Ayres, because it meant that the case of the victim who had come forward was out of statute.

So, I am glad for this decision.

 

[Lola]

Because we are Catholics. We're like the Mafia. You never get out!

You laugh, but the birthplace of the Mafia is no accident.

 

[Nova]

You laugh, but the birthplace of the Mafia is no accident.

Which one? The Cosa Nostra? The Russian mob? Columbian? The Chinese Tong? The Hollywood "gay mafia"? (Okay, that last one is a myth.)

But the point is there are crime syndicates all over the world. They thrive wherever judicial systems are corrupt and/or powerless.

The Italian mafia wasn't invented here in the U.S., but it thrived here during periods when Italian immigrants were effectively shut out of the formal U.S. justice system.

 

[Irish Frieke]

http://www.standaard.be/artikel/detail.aspx?artikelid=DMF20100707_032

"Tijdens de huiszoekingen bij het aartsbisdom werden allerlei stukken uit het dossier-Dutroux gevonden. Het gaat onder meer om foto’s van de autopsie van Julie en Mélissa. De vraag is natuurlijk hoe die documenten daar terechtgekomen zijn. Volgens de krant De Morgen kwamen ze in 2004 terecht bij kardinaal Danneels via de makers van een Brits satirisch blad"

Parts of the file of Marc Dutroux were found during the searches of the archbishopry. Amongst others there were pictures of the autopsy on Julie and Melissa. The question is being raised how these documents came to be there. According to the newspaper The Morning they were sent to Cardinal Danneels by the publishers of a British Satirical magazine.

Recap on this: Julie and Melissa were the youngest victims of Marc Dutroux and starved to death in the cellar of his house in Marcinelle while he was in prison. His wife didn't feed them. She could even have set them free, but she didn't. They were buried in the garden and found there years later after the miraculous rescue of 2 other girls who survived their ordeal.
There's more at the link, but unfortunately our newspapers have no translation button. Whole parts of confidential files of the Dutroux case were found as well. No explanation of how they came to be in the possession of the archbishop. There's also talk of documents being burned years ago.

You know (and this is my opinion only) when the whole Dutroux affair broke and he started talking about rings of high placed people attending parties and having sex with minors, I didn't believe him and thought he was trying to downplay his evil deeds. After all these years and with this breaking now, I am not so sure anymore.....