Best books on this case?

[close_enough]

Perfect Murder, Perfect Town is probably the best book i've read so far....

 

[BOESP]

Perfect Murder, Perfect Town is probably the best book i've read so far....

I thought it was informative too. My only problem is right off the bat, in the intro, Schiller says he altered names and sometimes statements/stories to make the events more coherent and easy to follow. That turned me off making me wonder what was altered and what was a straight story. I'm pretty forgiving of human error but I'd rather see the unaltered facts then decipher them on my own.

By the way, I have a close friend who was with child protective services for 25 years. She agrees 100% with your molestation theory. I have a lot of confidence in her abilities even though I'm not thoroughly convinced John was molesting JonBenet. However, I admit it is pretty hard to just dismiss John's black shirt fibers being found in JonBenet's underwear isn't it.

 

[Solace]

here's how it's worded in the book i'm reading.....

The scenario of sexual abuse fits in many ways with information given to the police by Diane Hallis, a former secretary at John's company, Access Graphics. Hallis reported talking to an anonymous woman who called the office shortly after the crime (& who sounded credible) claiming to be the friend of a woman having an affair with one of John Ramsey's attorneys. The caller claimed that her friend had learned through her paramour that Patsy had admitted to killing JonBenet because she had found out John was sexually abusing her. Hallis passed a lie detector test in regard to her story.

On one hand it's doubtful that either Patsy or John would tell any attorney such a story, even if it were true, but Patsy has a tendency to tell everything, & the fact that the story seems to fit so perfectly with Patsy's ransom note suggests that it should be taken seriously.

trash or not, i found it interesting......i had always leaned toward Burke being "the one", but i truly believe Patsy, in the heat of an argument with John, after finding him in bed with JonBenet that night, caused Patsy to snap & hit JonBenet, in the heat of the moment.....who knows, maybe JonBenet was crying & yelling during the argument & Patsy lashed out at her...either way, Patsy & John covered the whole thing up...i'll always believe that.....John wouldn't want it known to the public that he was sexually molesting his daughter, so they both had something to hold over each others' heads....

I agree. Patsy would never say something like that to anyone. Ever.

It is incredible what people make up.

 

[Albert18]

trash or not, i found it interesting......i had always leaned toward Burke being "the one", but i truly believe Patsy, in the heat of an argument with John, after finding him in bed with JonBenet that night, caused Patsy to snap & hit JonBenet, in the heat of the moment.....who knows, maybe JonBenet was crying & yelling during the argument & Patsy lashed out at her...either way, Patsy & John covered the whole thing up...i'll always believe that.....John wouldn't want it known to the public that he was sexually molesting his daughter, so they both had something to hold over each others' heads....

I did consider something like this but I think the crime scene rules it out.

A theory like this overlooks one crucial fact; John, working comfortably in his own home for 5 or 6 hours. If John and Patsy were two crack heads, it may fit, but not these two very accomplished people.

I know a lot of people like to include John early but that scenario overlooks one important fact. If you include John from the beginning then that means if the plan doesn't work, John goes to jail. Which means John is betting his life on the condition of the crime scene. Considering what we know about John, his abilities, his achievements, his demeanor, it doesn't fit. This has to be an important reason Steve Thomas doesn't include John until later. John involved early makes as much sense as an intruder.

It will be argued that the crime scene was that way because there was panic and hysteria that night. Show me one example where John was seen to be panicked or hysterical. This guy's ability to detach himself and take care of the task at hand is quite stunning.

 

[BOESP]

... It will be argued that the crime scene was that way because there was panic and hysteria that night. Show me one example where John was seen to be panicked or hysterical. This guy's ability to detach himself and take care of the task at hand is quite stunning.

Your theory is why I can't buy into the "John molested JonBenet" theory. I believe John should be giving seminars on "How To Compartmentalize The Nasty Events In Your Life." He is a true master at that. He does, however, lack convincing acting skills.

 

[Solace]

Your theory is why I can't buy into the "John molested JonBenet" theory. I believe John should be giving seminars on "How To Compartmentalize The Nasty Events In Your Life." He is a true master at that. He does, however, lack convincing acting skills.

You just crack me up. He could join Jeffrey MacDonald because that is what he says he does, literally.

Yes, he just had to get rid of that perennial smile.

 

[JMO8778]

I think JR has more to hide that meets the eye..he was all too anxious to be seen on CNN ...more than once.he was all too anxious to leave town,even to the point of thinking of leaving the country.and just why did he want his golf bag? even if he'd found the body at 11am,it seems nothing was altered.he had to have hidden something in it at the time of the staging.
add to that he doesn't tell LE to lay low,he doesn't go out and look for JB himself (even just to walk around the neighborhood),he doesn't ask the friends for help,and he doesn't even walk around the outside of the house.He would have been turning that house upside down and shaking it if he didn't have a clue as to where JB was.but 7 HOURS to find her body???? any parent would have found her within an hour,I believe,if she were truly missing,but still in the house.I also think he would have taken LE aside and voiced his suspicions that perhaps Patsy wrote the note.after all,what if she was hurt,yet nearby and not able to cry for help?and IF he'd have thought that to begin with...forget calling 911 ! I think JR would have taken care of that himself,starting with putting both hands around Patsy's throat and yelling 'Where's JonBenet?? I KNOW YOU WROTE THAT NOTE !!!'
and by Patsy's own admission,'she was screaming,and JR was screaming,when he came up from the basement'.
and how do you explain JR's fiber evidence? he wasn't wearing that shirt when LE arrived.and yes,actually Thomas does question JR's behavior in his book,he just didn't have proof of his early involvement at the time.but I do agree w. him,as far as still believing Patsy manually strangled JB and inflicted the head blow.

 

[BOESP]

Questions in blue below:

I think JR has more to hide that meets the eye..he was all too anxious to be seen on CNN ...more than once.he was all too anxious to leave town,even to the point of thinking of leaving the country.and just why did he want his golf bag? even if he'd found the body at 11am,it seems nothing was altered.he had to have hidden something in it at the time of the staging.

Maybe John was protecting Patsy. I believe someone stated here that a defense attorney could not knowingly present a not-guilty defense if the client had admitted pre-trial that he was, indeed, guilty. Correct me on that if I misunderstood. I don't think, however, it means that John couldn't have told his own attorney that he believed Patsy was guilty. Would disclosing such a thing, if true, be a part of attorney-client privilege?

... he wasn't wearing that shirt when LE arrived.and yes,actually Thomas does question JR's behavior in his book,he just didn't have proof of his early involvement at the time.but I do agree w. him,as far as still believing Patsy manually strangled JB and inflicted the head blow.

Where was that black shirt found? Wasn't it turned in by the Ramseys much later?

 

[BOESP]

You just crack me up. He could join Jeffrey MacDonald because that is what he says he does, literally.

Yes, he just had to get rid of that perennial smile.

Well, at least John doesn't seem to be narcissistic.

Did anyone besides me notice that in the first and earliest interviews Patsy did all the talking and John mostly kept quiet or replied in short sentences? Later, he seemed to do most of the talking and Patsy just sat there. If you are one of the people who saw it this, I'd be interested in hearing your ideas about why.

In DOI, John seemed to level out and write as much as Patsy did. It was confusing as the devil to figure out who was saying what in several places. It sounded like they didn't have a continuity editor and it was disjointed in many places. I was also disappointed that John seemed to dwell on Beth and how he handled her death. While I see that as an extreme personal tragedy, I wish he'd concentrated more on JonBenet. It would also have been nice to see a family photo where he wasn't on the opposite end from JonBenet.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I was also disappointed that John seemed to dwell on Beth and how he handled her death. While I see that as an extreme personal tragedy, I wish he'd concentrated more on JonBenet. It would also have been nice to see a family photo where he wasn't on the opposite end from JonBenet.

I felt the same way. DOI from JR's pov was more about his bereavement and struggle to overcome the loss of Beth than it was about losing JonBenet. It's like he used up all of his grief on Beth and had only anger (at LE and media) left for the loss of JonBenet. I also felt bad for him, it being very evident how devastated he was at Beth's unexpected death, but I couldn't help but wonder why he didn't express that same amount of emotion over JB.

I have never noticed that JR is opposite of JB in pictures...interesting. JR does not appear to be a man who would enjoy being emotionally vulnerable in any way - perhaps he had unconsciously decided that it was safer for him to not become too attached to the second set of kids. He lost the first set, in a manner of speaking, when his wife divorced him...he lost his oldest daughter who appeared to have been special to him in an unexpected accident...maybe he was seemingly distant and career-absorbed, traveling away from home frequently, because being too absorbed with the children might leave him vulnerable to be hurt and abandoned (in a manner of speaking) again.

Maybe that's also why he didn't accompany Patsy to her cancer treatments, with her going with her mother or sometimes alone...maybe it was too painful for JR to have to face the idea that he could lose another family member, such as watching his wife endure chemo, not knowing if she would survive or not. Maybe he couldn't emotionally afford it. JMO.

 

[DeeDee249]

Or his extra-marital affairs could have kept him emotionally distant from PR and his kids with her. He also may have regarded JBR as PR's "project". It's almost like he thought- well, JBR is PR's business.

 

[BOESP]

I suppose the title, "Death of Innocence," could cover Beth's dying as well as Patsy's cancer and JonBenet's death. But for some reason I thought Patsy said it was written so members of the future Ramsey family would know the truth about JonBenet's death (the truth from John and Patsy's viewpoint). It certainly missed the mark on that account since most of it was about John's loss of Beth and Patsy's cancer treatments and how wealthy and important they were and the funny little pranks they pulled on people who didn't suit them.

To tell you the truth, as shallow as she seemed, I still felt sorry for Patsy in a lot of ways. I'd also recommend this book to anyone interested in JonBenet and the lifestyle she lived.

 

[JMO8778]

It certainly missed the mark on that account since most of it was about John's loss of Beth and Patsy's cancer treatments and how wealthy and important they were and the funny little pranks they pulled on people who didn't suit them.

ain't that the truth.

To tell you the truth, as shallow as she seemed, I still felt sorry for Patsy in a lot of ways. I'd also recommend this book to anyone interested in JonBenet and the lifestyle she lived.

I did,too.I felt she had to put up w. a lot of nonsense from JR,in order to stay married to him...him being gone a lot,him not going to the treatments w. her,he was said to have had affairs in that marriage,too.and then her basically having to take care of all the running of the household,inc. the 2 kids,all on her own.not to mention the cancer.
it doesn't sound like she had any help w. all the packing and everything on xmas,either.she was probably,like JB was,totally exhausted.
I don't know how shallow she was b/f she married JR,but it sounds like it only got worse.

Overall,I think JR is a selfish twit.JMO.

 

[JMO8778]

Or his extra-marital affairs could have kept him emotionally distant from PR and his kids with her.

that can happen,yes,I know.I've seen it.

 

[icedtea4me]

But for some reason I thought Patsy said it was written so members of the future Ramsey family would know the truth about JonBenet's death (the truth from John and Patsy's viewpoint). It certainly missed the mark on that account since most of it was about John's loss of Beth and Patsy's cancer treatments and how wealthy and important they were and the funny little pranks they pulled on people who didn't suit them.

IMO, the talk of Beth's death and Patsy's cancer was highly relevant. They talked about issues that had been troubling them for quite some time. I guess one could say it was a cathartic process and, imo, these issues are connected to JonBenet's death.


-Tea

 

[BOESP]

IMO, the talk of Beth's death and Patsy's cancer was highly relevant. They talked about issues that had been troubling them for quite some time. I guess one could say it was a cathartic process and, imo, these issues are connected to JonBenet's death.


-Tea

Tea, I suppose, maybe, that writing about Beth's death and Patsy's cancer was not only cathartic but, perhaps, an explanation of sorts, if that's what you mean. If not, how do you connect those two stressors to JonBenet's death?

 

[close_enough]

I did consider something like this but I think the crime scene rules it out.

A theory like this overlooks one crucial fact; John, working comfortably in his own home for 5 or 6 hours. If John and Patsy were two crack heads, it may fit, but not these two very accomplished people.

I know a lot of people like to include John early but that scenario overlooks one important fact. If you include John from the beginning then that means if the plan doesn't work, John goes to jail. Which means John is betting his life on the condition of the crime scene. Considering what we know about John, his abilities, his achievements, his demeanor, it doesn't fit. This has to be an important reason Steve Thomas doesn't include John until later. John involved early makes as much sense as an intruder.

It will be argued that the crime scene was that way because there was panic and hysteria that night. Show me one example where John was seen to be panicked or hysterical. This guy's ability to detach himself and take care of the task at hand is quite stunning.

hmmm, i guess i'm not understanding the "crack head" comment....very upstanding people of communities molest their children, & are never caught....they wait till the mother is asleep (they know the patterns of their wives over the years & how long it takes them to fall asleep, if they're tired, etc....) very easy to slip out of bed & go to another bedroom for a few minutes of perverted 'pleasure'......if i'm not mistaken, JBR was abused digitally (with fingers).....i read that somewhere, & i'd have to search high & low to find it now, so please don't ask me to, lol......"accomplished" people do bad things also......

it could be that Patsy hadn't fallen sound asleep, woke up, noticed JR gone....(who knows, maybe she suspected it for awhile, but didn't want to think that such a nasty thing would go on in her home???)....anyway, she catches JR in the bed w/JBR & freaks out.....i think it's possible....in the book i'm reading it's stated that JBR had been bedwetting for awhile, so it really shouldn't have been something that would throw Patsy into such a rage....maybe the underwear being changed/or the pull-ups, whatever...was that she demanded JBR to get those panties off, after hubby had his hands in them???......i read that JBR's sheets were urine stained...were they wet??...does anyone know, or were they just stained?....it's possible that with Patsy going off the deep end, JBR pee'd in her bed during all the commotion.....

i think JR was/is a stone cold human being....i read that one of his employess at AG said he could be ruthless with business partners & not think a thing about 'stabbing them in the back'.....

there's so many possible scenarios.......

 

[DeeDee249]

As far as the bedsheets that night, they were described as urine-stained. If they had been wet just before she died, they would have been dry by the time they were taken into evidence. If they were photographed while wet, it may not be apparent in the photos. Remember, IF JBR was in that bed at all that night, the bedwetting had to occur around midnight. LE didn't remove the sheets till more than 12 hours later, AFTER the body was found. Though LE arrived shorly after 6am, JBR's room was taped off, but nothing was removed until after the case went from "kidnapping" to "homicide".

 

[icedtea4me]

Tea, I suppose, maybe, that writing about Beth's death and Patsy's cancer was not only cathartic but, perhaps, an explanation of sorts, if that's what you mean. If not, how do you connect those two stressors to JonBenet's death?

I know this book isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I adhere to Dr. Hodges' theory in his book A Mother Gone Bad, BOESP. IMO, the detectives could have gotten a lot more out of Patsy if they would have really dug deeper into the psychological impact of her, a former beauty queen, being diagnosed with stage 4 ovarian cancer at such a young age.


-Tea

 

[icedtea4me]

it could be that Patsy hadn't fallen sound asleep, woke up, noticed JR gone....(who knows, maybe she suspected it for awhile, but didn't want to think that such a nasty thing would go on in her home???)....anyway, she catches JR in the bed w/JBR & freaks out.....i think it's possible....in the book i'm reading it's stated that JBR had been bedwetting for awhile, so it really shouldn't have been something that would throw Patsy into such a rage....

I agree, close enough. After all, what would be more devastating to a woman who was a former beauty queen with stage 4 ovarian cancer that destroyed what it was that made her a woman- a bed wetting accident or catching her husband and daughter in a sexual act?


-Tea