Bosma Murder Trial 03.09.16 - Day 22

[DeepWoodsOff]

I'm surprised the Crown didn't ask the witness from the Eliminator manufacturer in Georgia whether flames or light could ever be visible while in operation.

The problem with that is, what if they say no, you wouldn't or shouldn't see visible flames? Then the Crown is into speculating that they used some other accelerant to possibly help the incinerator heat up faster or to burn the clothes etc. etc. I think it is better they left it open to interpretation, which I think most will interpret as the incinerator was in action. MOO

As far as going out for propane...that is a big- tank on that trailer. It wouldn't be a simple trip to the gas station to fill like it would be for a BBQ tank. And I'm guessing there would be some good quality surveillance video from any gas station they went to. But as some others already noted, most locations do not fill propane overnight. They may have a pump available for any cars left out there running on propane, but gas station attendants are not leaving the store overnight to go out to the propane station. MOO

 

[ArianeEmory]

I think part of the confusion with regards to the word 'trailer' is that during the nighttime video of the truck towing the Eliminator, you could see that there was some kind of TRAILER, because of running lights, but you couldn't actually see the Eliminator, because it's black. So the witnesses (and journos) used the word 'trailer' for precision--all you can say with certainty is that something with running lights is 'trailing' the truck.

Someone correct me if you think this is wrong.

Personal spec only: SS was probably tasked with filling the propane at an earlier time.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Good Morning Everyone, I'm trying to find the video from Bobcat where Tim's phone was found. Does anyone have a link? I tried google searching, didnt come up with anything. Was it released?

I've only seen stills, not the actual video.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I think part of the confusion with regards to the word 'trailer' is that during the nighttime video of the truck towing the Eliminator, you could see that there was some kind of TRAILER, because of running lights, but you couldn't actually see the Eliminator, because it's black. So the witnesses (and journos) used the word 'trailer' for precision--all you can say with certainty is that something with running lights is 'trailing' the truck.

Someone correct me if you think this is wrong.

Personal spec only: SS was probably tasked with filling the propane at an earlier time.

I think you're correct about what might cause confusion. There are TWO trailers in this case, and two trucks (and the Yukon). If not following closely, it's easy to get details mixed up.

 

[Ironworker736]

Just now catching up after needing to get away from this for today The testimony and evidence presented upset me more than I expected.

In any case, the video of the 2 in the hangar with the dog... no question in my mind, it's them. DM carrying a flashlight, with his murse resting on his left hip and walking with that duck-foot gait. MS in his baggy hoodie, no glasses (it appears that way from the still shot but in the video he turns his head and you can clearly see he's not wearing glasses), baggy jeans and looking around. They both give the impression they're looking for something specific in the hangar. (or, MS is worried they're being watched? Dunno, he looks sketchy.)

I don't know if the jury is brought in after DM and MS are already seated, or excused before the accused are, but it would be a shame if they didn't have the opportunity to watch the way he walks with that specific gait. Sort of lurch-like, with his feet pointing outward as he walks. Exactly like the man in the hangar video, carrying the murse.

moo

The jury enters last and leaves first. Both the accused wear black nylon leg shackles, so their natural gait would not be observable in court. HTH

 

[Variant]

I think part of the confusion with regards to the word 'trailer' is that during the nighttime video of the truck towing the Eliminator, you could see that there was some kind of TRAILER, because of running lights, but you couldn't actually see the Eliminator, because it's black. So the witnesses (and journos) used the word 'trailer' for precision--all you can say with certainty is that something with running lights is 'trailing' the truck.

Someone correct me if you think this is wrong.

Personal spec only: SS was probably tasked with filling the propane at an earlier time.

The large trailer requires a "fifth wheel" hitch which is installed into the bed of a pick-up style vehicle, which in this case is DM's red Ram. The notch in the large trailer fits over the pickup bed.

The Yukon could not pull the large trailer nor could Tim's pickup because they didn't have a fifth wheel hitch. The red Ram would also have a regular hitch so it could pull either trailer. Tim's truck had a regular hitch so it could pull the Eliminator trailer.

I recall at least one scene where the Eliminator could be discerned, when they turned off the road into the entrance to the hangar.

 

[DeepWoodsOff]

The jury enters last and leaves first. Both the accused wear black nylon leg shackles, so their natural gait would not be observable in court. HTH

It does seem like something that the Crown should try to reference whether through another video etc. MOO

 

[Ironworker736]

It does seem like something that the Crown should try to reference whether through another video etc. MOO

Does anyonee have a video that they can link? I've never seen him walk, personally. I will say that it seems pretty evident that it is DM in the hangar video. As for SM...it looks like it might be him, but I can't say for certain. I suspect that it is IMO

 

[ArianeEmory]

The large trailer requires a "fifth wheel" hitch which is installed into the bed of a pick-up style vehicle, which in this case is DM's red Ram. The notch in the large trailer fits over the pickup bed.

The Yukon could not pull the large trailer nor could Tim's pickup because they didn't have a fifth wheel hitch. The red Ram would also have a regular hitch so it could pull either trailer. Tim's truck had a regular hitch so it could pull the Eliminator trailer.

I recall at least one scene where the Eliminator could be discerned, when they turned off the road into the entrance to the hangar.

Yes, there are at least a few frames where the striking silhouette is discernible. But I suspect it's still too vague for the Crown to claim it, hence using the word trailer. Maybe I'm wrong.

Does anyonee have a video that they can link? I've never seen him walk, personally. I will say that it seems pretty evident that it is DM in the hangar video. As for SM...it looks like it might be him, but I can't say for certain. I suspect that it is IMO

At first I was skeptical about MS, but his shaved head/shape of skull made it pretty obvious to me.

 

[deugirtni]

I really thought that Abro had explained why SB and WDB had not identified the two accuseds in court.. but last evening I went looking for her post to that effect, and I was unable to find it.

The way I understand it is that a witness on the stand, stating that, 'yes I saw the accused and that is him sitting in the defendant's box right over there', is a powerful statement to make in front of a jury, and carries a lot of weight with them.. but yet eye witness testimony has historically proven to be very unreliable.

So while the people who actually knew DM or had come to know DM, are asked to ID him in court (like say the police, with whom DM had come to know, and which officers knew for sure at the time that they were actually dealing with DM; or AJ who actually worked with DM; or a friend or relative, etc.), the people who only saw DM on a specific one-time occasion for a short time, and didn't necessarily *know* who they were seeing, are NOT asked to do that.

With Igor, he identified MS via mug shots shown to him from MS's previous arrests, prior to the time when MS's photo was all over the news. In fact, I believe it was Igor's identification of MS via those photos, that led police to be on his trail for the TB murder. He (Igor) picked MS's photo out of a pile of random photos, without any prior images being stuck in his head from the newspapers - all he had was his (fortunately) photographic memory.

Igor was not allowed however, to ID DM, same as SB and WDB weren't allowed to (or at least they weren't allowed to state that publicly in court), because by the time they had photos of DM, his face had already been all over the news. If an accused's picture has already been plastered everywhere, that suspect's appearance is already recognizable in peoples' minds, and for an eye witness to ID a suspect AFTER that, it would be considered tainted, since the eye witness would not be able to say for sure whether that image in his/her head was there due to having actually seen the exact suspect at the time of the event, or whether it was because they recognized the photo from the news, or perhaps the two meshed together. Our (humans) minds and memories have historically proven to sometimes deceive us, and I guess it is considered unfair to suspects to be identified by eye witnesses AFTER their photos have been plastered everywhere. Some people complain in newspaper comments written after a newspaper article, about there being no photo of a named suspect.. turns out there is a reason for that.

Once Igor had identified MS from the photo lineup (May 15, 2013), I am not sure whether SB was given a photo lineup containing MS's photo, and was unable to pick him out of a bunch of pics.... or if by the time she would have been given the opportunity to view a photo lineup, it was too late because he had already been arrested and his face in the news (May 22, 2013). She (SB) may know in her mind and in her heart, that DM and MS, or one or the other, were the men that went into the truck with her husband on that fateful night, but any such testimony to that effect is not allowed. That is how I interpreted that whole situation, and it makes sense to me, as I was also wondering why SB had not been asked to identify the men in court.

MOO

 

[ArianeEmory]

Thanks, deugirtni.

I firmly believe a lot of us (myself included) have seen too many tv shows/movies where a witness basically says "YES IT WAS THAT MAN RIGHT THERE!" in the courtroom, so the absence feels weird.

 

[LoyalSleuth]

Hey guys, I have been bogged down with work and unable to even remotely follow along to tweets or the case. I saw some snips of the video evidence on the news last night.
My question, if anyone can give me a quick answer before I log off and get to work... The Video from the DVR found during search at CN's home, what video images were on that? Is it the in the hangar with 2 men and the dog?
Someone said they were wearing gloves, is this that video?

Many thanks.

 

[Prairie_dawg]

Hey guys, I have been bogged down with work and unable to even remotely follow along to tweets or the case. I saw some snips of the video evidence on the news last night.
My question, if anyone can give me a quick answer before I log off and get to work... The Video from the DVR found during search at CN's home, what video images were on that? Is it the in the hangar with 2 men and the dog?
Someone said they were wearing gloves, is this that video?

Many thanks.

Yes the accused can be seen in the hanger wearing gloves and DM is shining a flashlight around, and wearing his manbag, MS is following behind looking paranoid and Pedo comes running in after both men exit the frame to the left.

 

[SnooperDuper]

sheesh, people have a lot to say about the video of the incinerator being ignited on Twitter this morning. SC/MH/The Spec have decided not to post that particular video online out of respect/by request of the Bosmas and people are debating censorship and ethics.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

The unit may be slightly pressurized (this I do not know but not sure I agree) but all the videos I watched showed the top door open while in burning phase. So you certainly can open the doors while it's on and in full burn.

Based on the videos of simular type/style, I beleive the first flare is the lighting of it (as I explained many pages back) and the 2nd is checking it's burning progress. These units are adjustable, meaning you have various flame/heat settings.

As for the running for propane theory, I doubt this. That's a 100lb volume tank (according to dirk bike fella) now add gas and tank weight? That would be too heavy for them to lift. They are seen in short times around the unit, not enough commotion to be putting the tank back on the trailer and hooking it up to the unit. MOO

IMO, The cigarette theory sounds reasonable. Being a smoker myself, when I'm stress, scared emotional.....I smoke like a chimney.

 

[Coldpizza]

Good morning. Trial thread is open for posting.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?302554-Bosma-Murder-Trial-03-10-16-Day-23

This one will close once the Jurors have entered the courtroom.

 

[deugirtni]

Thanks, deugirtni.

I firmly believe a lot of us (myself included) have seen too many tv shows/movies where a witness basically says "YES IT WAS THAT MAN RIGHT THERE!" in the courtroom, so the absence feels weird.

Yes for sure.. it felt like an elephant in the courtroom (to me) when SB was not asked to identify the two accuseds in the courtroom during the first day of the trial. I'm not sure, and now I will have to search for an answer, as to when this change took place within our court systems. Seems like it IS in all of the tv shows/movies, and it IS a powerful moment... and therefore I can understand why it would no longer be allowed. I suspect that over time there have been too many wrongful convictions which were deemed to have been mostly based on such witness ID statements. It is funny (ie interesting) how some people (like Igor and my husband) seem to notice EVERY detail about people they see.. while other people (like me) hardly notice ANYthing.

I had also surmised that the reason why the signed statement of agreed-upon facts in regard to MS being present during Igor's test-drive was presented in court, was a choice made by MS and legal team instead of MS going on the stand to admit it. They (LE) had an ID made out of a lineup, but it was still only Igor's word, until MS admitted it.. so they (the prosecution) probably needed to state that in court, but MS and team likely don't want to have to be on the witness stand. MOO

 

[deugirtni]

Yes the accused can be seen in the hanger wearing gloves and DM is shining a flashlight around, and wearing his manbag, MS is following behind looking paranoid and Pedo comes running in after both men exit the frame to the left.

Some here have said that MS is NOT wearing glasses/sunglasses in this hangar video.. so what is the explanation for the bugging eyes then? Just curious! I still can't see the danged murse! Where is it? Thank you for the circle around the glove, I wasn't seeing the gloves either! Is there a shot showing MS also wearing gloves?

 

[SnooperDuper]

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 26s26 seconds ago
Court now in session. Just waiting on the jury. #TimBosma #Bosma #HamOnt

 

[Juballee]

We're looking for something close to the hangar in Breslau. The SUV was gone for 30 minutes from 12:42am to 1:12am. After it returned, at 1:33am DM and MS were seen on the video inside the hangar and at 1:44am the incinerator was lit.

So wherever it went, it was no more than 10-15 minutes out from the hangar and then back again, depending on how long it was at it's destination. Still not sure if one or both of them were in the SUV at this time.

MOO

ETA: The idea of going for propane is good. Just trying to figure out if there is somewhere they could have done this at that time of the morning.

If the propane tank is mounted on the trailer for the incinerator, how were they going to carry the propane in the SUV? It's not like you can buy a couple of tanks and then siphon the gas from them into the incinerator tank. Also, having to buy propane on the spot would again go towards the theory that this was not a planned event.