Bosma Murder Trial 04.14.16 - Day 35

[Massasauga Rattler]

Dellen the felon, now that is going to stick with me

Actually surprised RP and NS did not have that deemed inadmissible. It's probably not directly related to this case, and can certainly become a meme for the jury.

 

[mozzagirl]

You don't think they were stupid enough to say exactly what they were going to do on texts do you?

Actually yes I do. Well, I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Look at all the stuff they were stupid enough to do that left paper trails and talked to several people about.

They left TB's truck out in the open in the hangar and several people saw it. Why do you think they wouldn't talk on text about things?

They weren't at all what I would call discreet. They seemed to think they were too smart for everyone else.

 

[paris_paris]

You don't think they were stupid enough to say exactly what they were going to do on texts do you?

I think they have already. You can sit back and read about every piece of evidence and say "that doesn't prove anything"<modsnip>

 

[redheart]

So, change of clothes.

- planning to be up all night and/or they were up for long periods of time wearing same clothing in days after the murder
- planning to get dirty and/or
- planning to need to change their appearance and/or don't need change of clothes for that, just layers. would need other accoutrements to change appearance
- planning to shift to some other millieu where different clothes will be needed Where could they be going that different clothes would be needed? We know they planned to steal the truck.

It's creepy and weird, but probably still not enough to say for sure that it's premeditation to harm IT. Thoughts?

Bolded responses are mine.

They knew they might have blood on them at some point. That's the only reason that makes sense for needing a change of clothes. IMO

 

[Massasauga Rattler]

Bolded responses are mine.

They knew they might have blood on them at some point. That's the only reason that makes sense for needing a change of clothes. IMO

I'd disagree. Could also be because they would be described by SB and TB (if they didn't kill him) to LE, and LE would subsequently be on the lookout for two guys wearing those clothes. A change of clothes after they steal the truck, and now they don't fit the witness description any longer.

I personally think that is a pretty viable explanation.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Who's Alex Carreno?

Maybe this is Bleach?

 

[redheart]

I'd disagree. Could also be because they would be described by SB and TB (if they didn't kill him) to LE, and LE would subsequently be on the lookout for two guys wearing those clothes. A change of clothes after they steal the truck, and now they don't fit the witness description any longer.

I personally think that is a pretty viable explanation.

It doesn't make sense to me. If all they wanted to do was change their appearance, they could have layered. Pulled their orange (or whatever) shirt off after leaving the Bosma's.

 

[JuneBug67]

I think its becoming more and more evident what he meant.

I'm not sure what it means to premeditation. I'm always trying to think like a juror needs to think in terms of reasonable doubt and context. There is more than one reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from 'bring a change of clothes' and they don't all suggest a plan for lethal violence. One thing that occurred to me is that this could be argued in Smich's favour. If Dellen the Felon is just throwing this at him on the day of the mission without any other context it could be argued that there hadn't been extensive planning and Smich didn't have as advanced a sense of what was coming.

 

[lclabtech]

So, change of clothes.

- planning to be up all night and/or
- planning to get dirty and/or
- planning to need to change their appearance and/or
- planning to shift to some other millieu where different clothes will be needed

It's creepy and weird, but probably still not enough to say for sure that it's premeditation to harm IT. Thoughts?

I'm thinking it's the second one because as we've all talked about, the change of clothes Smich is gonna bring is probably another hoodie - not much of a disguise. IMO, the implication is his first outfit will be dirtied.

 

[RandomName479]

I'm not sure what it means to premeditation. I'm always trying to think like a juror needs to think in terms of reasonable doubt and context. There is more than one reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from 'bring a change of clothes' and they don't all suggest a plan for lethal violence. One thing that occurred to me is that this could be argued in Smich's favour. If Dellen the Felon is just throwing this at him on the day of the mission without any other context it could be argued that there hadn't been extensive planning and Smich didn't have as advanced a sense of what was coming.

technically this was the day before the TB test drive......so while I agree there could be other reasons (ya know...like swimming), I think the totality of evidence is leaning towards MS knowing what was going to go down. He had 24+ hours to question DM if he didn't know why he needed clothes.....MOO

This particular text almost made me sick.....I have a feeling it struck a chord with the jury too....again all MOO

 

[JuneBug67]

technically this was the day before the TB test drive......so while I agree there could be other reasons (ya know...like swimming), I think the totality of evidence is leaning towards MS knowing what was going to go down. He had 24+ hours to question DM if he didn't know why he needed clothes.....MOO

My sense was the the directive was in relation to the Sunday plan, and I guess we really don't know for sure if it also applied the next day. I can't recall right now...was there evidence that they changed their clothes overnight on Monday/Tuesday?

 

[lclabtech]

I'd disagree. Could also be because they would be described by SB and TB (if they didn't kill him) to LE, and LE would subsequently be on the lookout for two guys wearing those clothes. A change of clothes after they steal the truck, and now they don't fit the witness description any longer.

I personally think that is a pretty viable explanation.

So I'm no longer a lab tech as I was when I first joined this forum -- and part of my job is asking witnesses for suspect descriptions. And I don't buy it. I would wager his change of clothes is all in the same style, likely another oversized hoodie.

 

[Nosey Parker]

I'm thinking it's the second one because as we've all talked about, the change of clothes Smich is gonna bring is probably another hoodie - not much of a disguise. IMO, the implication is his first outfit will be dirtied.

But dirtied doing what - stealing a truck they are test driving? How would they 'get dirty' just doing that?

 

[andreww]

Actually yes I do. Well, I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Look at all the stuff they were stupid enough to do that left paper trails and talked to several people about.

They left TB's truck out in the open in the hangar and several people saw it. Why do you think they wouldn't talk on text about things?

They weren't at all what I would call discreet. They seemed to think they were too smart for everyone else.

They were discrete....kinda.

They seem to have decided that if they speak in code, nobody will figure it out. But not once have they gone farther than mentioning a mission. Not much detail beyond that.

 

[lclabtech]

But dirtied doing what - stealing a truck they are test driving? How would they 'get dirty' just doing that?

Well yeah, you don't really expect to get dirty on a test drive. But now we have MS and DM going on what appears to be a dry run for the truck theft and DM is asking him to bring a change of clothes. And the next test drive they go on, a guy gets murdered and we have a situation where it makes sense they'd need a change of clothes. It's not a slam dunk but the jury can put 1 and 1 together there, IMO. It doesn't look good at all. It looks like a point towards premeditation.

 

[JuneBug67]

Continuing to think about the clothes, it's interesting that DM chose to wear (the same?) orange clothing to both test drives. Orange is bright and memorable, particularly in the evening. Does lend some potential to intending the different clothes as a change of appearance. If cops are looking for a guy in an orange t-shirt and jeans and he's morphed into a guy in a white t-shirt and khakis that would be good. On the other hand, if he knows he's going to be burning his clothing he might choose to wear the same t-shirt two night in a row for that too. Either way, if it's the same shirt for both test drives a day apart it likely suggests some purpose to the choice of shirt.

 

[lclabtech]

Continuing to think about the clothes, it's interesting that DM chose to wear (the same?) orange clothing to both test drives. Orange is bright and memorable, particularly in the evening. Does lend some potential to intending the different clothes as a change of appearance. If cops are looking for a guy in an orange t-shirt and jeans and he's morphed into a guy in a white t-shirt and khakis that would be good.

But police know people change clothes... Suspect 1 is still male white, over 6', medium build, with short brown hair and Suspect 2 still male white, approx 5'9 (could be slightly off there but the point stands), thin build, with a shaved head... Just as an example. If Smich changes from one oversized hoody to another, that doesn't accomplish much in terms of a disguise.

I'm more inclined to agree with the second part - about the burning. Especially due to the BBQ mention!

 

[andreww]

I'm not sure what it means to premeditation. I'm always trying to think like a juror needs to think in terms of reasonable doubt and context. There is more than one reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from 'bring a change of clothes' and they don't all suggest a plan for lethal violence. One thing that occurred to me is that this could be argued in Smich's favour. If Dellen the Felon is just throwing this at him on the day of the mission without any other context it could be argued that there hadn't been extensive planning and Smich didn't have as advanced a sense of what was coming.

Just too many little pieces starting to fit together. Chatter about clothes, the bbq, the mission, the generator, JVs truck, etc. On their own they can be dismissed as coincidental, but taken together they are starting to clearly show that the plan included theft, murder and incineration.

 

[JuneBug67]

Well yeah, you don't really expect to get dirty on a test drive. But now we have MS and DM going on what appears to be a dry run for the truck theft and DM is asking him to bring a change of clothes. And the next test drive they go on, a guy gets murdered and we have a situation where it makes sense they'd need a change of clothes. It's not a slam dunk but the jury can put 1 and 1 together there, IMO. It doesn't look good at all. It looks like a point towards premeditation.

I still think it's too ambiguous at this point. Juries are typically reminded with circumstantial evidence that if there is a reasonable alternative explanation that benefits the defendant that is the one they have to apply. Like the BBQ chatter. If facts and theories support both the bacon BBQ and the horror BBQ, juries are required to apply the more benign explanation. The same might apply here. Hopefully further data from Felon's phone will make things clearer.

 

[Claroon]

I'm not sure what it means to premeditation. I'm always trying to think like a juror needs to think in terms of reasonable doubt and context. There is more than one reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from 'bring a change of clothes' and they don't all suggest a plan for lethal violence. One thing that occurred to me is that this could be argued in Smich's favour. If Dellen the Felon is just throwing this at him on the day of the mission without any other context it could be argued that there hadn't been extensive planning and Smich didn't have as advanced a sense of what was coming.

Well someone went to Waterloo to check the bbq. Which one was it DM or MS? I think participating in the IT May 5th showed him what was up. A way to get a feel for it.Big picture it all points to both of them IMO.