Bosma Murder Trial 05.12.16 - Day 48

[SnooperDuper]

@susanclairmont was reported new evidence from Smitch now gives Millard team chance to re-open their case. Is this true? May still hear him?

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
Crown and Dungey say it's impossible.

 

[Ontario Mom]

In order for MS to get a lesser charge, the jury is going to have to believe

- the murder was not part of the plan
- MS knew nothing about the gun being on the test drive
- MS did not participate in confining TB
- DM pulled the trigger, acting alone

I think it is a stretch to believe all of these.

I don't think it's a stretch at all.

I know that TD by opting to call witnesses (at least MS, who knows if he's done?) for the defense, has made more than a few eyebrows go up.
I know that there are some folks who aren't convinced MS knew they were going to kill someone.
I know there are some who actually believe MS when he said he had no idea DM had a gun with him.
I know there are also some who find it believable that MS was driving the Yukon, trailing TB's truck when DM shot him (according to MS's testimony).
I know there are many who never believed MS is the one who shot TB.

Comments made here, and elsewhere and in conversations face-to-face with folks about this case tells me that it's not at all a stretch for some on the jury to now be wondering how much of MS's account is actually true. I also know I'm one of them who is scratching my head wondering how much of it's true and how much of it may be CYA mode in hopes of a lesser charge.

moo.

 

[brightii]

I really doubt this is the situation, but I wonder if TD put MS on the stand with the presumption or agreement, beforehand, that MS would acknowledge the location of the gun. Then maybe, last night, MS decided to change his mind. If this was the case, I wonder if TD could have said, "then you're own your own, cowboy, and we're gonna make this real short tomorrow morning"!

Just a wild thought.

As you know I'm not averse to wild thoughts. lol I had actually wondered the exact same thing! TD has presented a stellar defence for MS up to this point, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[EspressoBean]

I really doubt this is the situation, but I wonder if TD put MS on the stand with the presumption or agreement, beforehand, that MS would acknowledge the location of the gun. Then maybe, last night, MS decided to change his mind. If this was the case, I wonder if TD could have said, "then you're own your own, cowboy, and we're gonna make this real short tomorrow morning"!

Just a wild thought.

I'm not sure how that would work. He works for MS. His job is to provide defense. Dungey is very invested in winning this case so I don't see him throwing up his hands and saying that his client is on his own.
Also, MS would have needed to come forward with that information before or he would be considered to be withholding evidence and there could be a mistrial. jmo

 

[don_quixote]

I really doubt this is the situation, but I wonder if TD put MS on the stand with the presumption or agreement, beforehand, that MS would acknowledge the location of the gun. Then maybe, last night, MS decided to change his mind. If this was the case, I wonder if TD could have said, "then you're own your own, cowboy, and we're gonna make this real short tomorrow morning"!

Just a wild thought.

Nah, I doubt that. In reality, the gun is of no importance. Even if Dungey brought it in a ziploc bag full of DM's fingerprints and saliva, it wouldn't add to the case.
1. Is there any way to match the gun to the murder? No
2. Does it contribute to the evidence that DM killed Tim Bosma? No
3. Does it contribute to the evidence that MS was not in the RAM during the shooting? No

Unless DM admits something, all can be implied is that at some point, perhaps between 1995 and 2013 DM held the gun in his hands for some (possibly very short) period of time. Even if they find the bullet that went through the window and, say, lodged in one of the buildings or a tree, it can't be linked with any confidence to that crime. Ok, may be MWJ held his own gun registry and he could testify that this is the gun that he sold to DM in Feb 2013. But that means nothing. While bringing the gun to the court would be sensational, the effect it would have on the outcome is about 0.

 

[paris_paris]

I've read that defense will cross and then the Crown. I'm surprised TD made that mistake....interesting that MS caught it....doubt it was a planned thing....something is making me think TD was off his game today.....the mic drop moment with CN (the you deserve each other thing) and even yesterday pointing out that TB meant everything to HIS family when MS claimed he didn't go to the police because he wanted to go to his sister's wedding and his family meant everything to them....he was almost antagonistic with MS.....at least pointing out what the rest of us were thinking.... today's testimony did MS no favours and IMO was not a strong closing by TD,....something seems off....

Doesn't TD get one more shot with MS after the Crown and DM's lawyer are done with him? I expect that's where he will close.

 

[RandomName479]

Doesn't TD get one more shot with MS after the Crown and DM's lawyer are done with him? I expect that's where he will close.

Hadn't thought of that......legal people may need to weigh in here....I have never followed a trial so closely and I'm not sure what protocol is.....having 2 defendants complicates matters too....

That being said, even the legal people don't agree on certain aspects of how this case will progress....ie: DM testifying......will be interesting to see how that develops......MOO

ETA - maybe someone with tweeting capability could ask SC this (I don't do twitter).....she is usually really good about answering questions......

 

[don_quixote]

@susanclairmont was reported new evidence from Smitch now gives Millard team chance to re-open their case. Is this true? May still hear him?

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
Crown and Dungey say it's impossible.

They don't explain why, due to the procedure, or because his testimony could not possibly do him any good (therefore, impossible).

 

[CJPRINCESS]

Doesn't TD get one more shot with MS after the Crown and DM's lawyer are done with him? I expect that's where he will close.

I don't see why it would be any different then the Crown witnesses.

 

[RandomName479]

They don't explain why, due to the procedure, or because his testimony could not possibly do him any good (therefore, impossible).

I understand it as he no longer has that option because he declined to present any evidence or testify when it was his turn. Not that his testimony won't do him any good (although I don't believe it could.....) MOO


ETA - if you check out SC's twitter she explains to a question about why Crown/Dungey say DM won't be allowed to testify (I know I can't post it here....but it's specific and cites a case)

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont 7m7 minutes ago

I guess we'll see. Not sure any "unexpected" evidence came from Smich's testimony. That's the test. #Bosma

 

[JuneBug67]

Hadn't thought of that......legal people may need to weigh in here....I have never followed a trial so closely and I'm not sure what protocol is.....having 2 defendants complicates matters too....

That being said, even the legal people don't agree on certain aspects of how this case will progress....ie: DM testifying......will be interesting to see how that develops......MOO

I'll weigh in here, loudly and confidently with my 50/50 record of understanding the legal system correctly. I think he gets a redirect if he wants just like the crown did with it's own witnesses.

 

[Claroon]

Sounds like CN, I don't know? Very convenient. Doesn't even have a general idea so LE can begin to search for the murder weapon? Come on.
Oakville is his "hood". I call BS

I agree, he would at least know which forest. And, IMO that is something you commit to memory unless being stoned and drunk all the time wiped his memory. IMO

 

[SuperSpy]

Nah, I doubt that. In reality, the gun is of no importance. Even if Dungey brought it in a ziploc bag full of DM's fingerprints and saliva, it wouldn't add to the case.
1. Is there any way to match the gun to the murder? No

Matching it to the shell casing ? Matching it to the pictures ?

2. Does it contribute to the evidence that DM killed Tim Bosma? No
3. Does it contribute to the evidence that MS was not in the RAM during the shooting? No

Agreed, but it is another feather in MS's cap in helping provide the truth to a trial in which it has been lacking.

Unless DM admits something, all can be implied is that at some point, perhaps between 1995 and 2013 DM held the gun in his hands for some (possibly very short) period of time. Even if they find the bullet that went through the window and, say, lodged in one of the buildings or a tree, it can't be linked with any confidence to that crime. Ok, may be MWJ held his own gun registry and he could testify that this is the gun that he sold to DM in Feb 2013. But that means nothing. While bringing the gun to the court would be sensational, the effect it would have on the outcome is about 0.

Not sure about that.

 

[JuneBug67]

I wonder how thoroughly LE searched the Bobcat area after the video was discovered and analyzed. A little late on the uptake but just realizing now a bullet hole as testified to implies there should have been a bullet out there. I wondered if this testimony has ignited either professional or amateur searching there.

 

[JuneBug67]

I agree, he would at least know which forest. And, IMO that is something you commit to memory unless being stoned and drunk all the time wiped his memory. IMO

Even if he did know a general area that is unlikely to be solicited in open court. That would be a significant public safety issue if it sent a bunch of amateur metal detectors into the generally correct location to find an illegal handgun.

 

[Amoeba]

I really doubt this is the situation, but I wonder if TD put MS on the stand with the presumption or agreement, beforehand, that MS would acknowledge the location of the gun. Then maybe, last night, MS decided to change his mind. If this was the case, I wonder if TD could have said, "then you're own your own, cowboy, and we're gonna make this real short tomorrow morning"!

Just a wild thought.

I thought the same Massassauga Rattler

 

[SuperSpy]

I really doubt this is the situation, but I wonder if TD put MS on the stand with the presumption or agreement, beforehand, that MS would acknowledge the location of the gun. Then maybe, last night, MS decided to change his mind. If this was the case, I wonder if TD could have said, "then you're own your own, cowboy, and we're gonna make this real short tomorrow morning"!

Just a wild thought.

I think something changed between yesterday and this morning. When the judge ended things yesterday, given what happened today, it would have been appropriate for TD to say he could wrap things up in 5 minutes, thus saving the the need to meet today. The judge apologized to the jury this morning for such a short day. It clearly wasn't what either of them were expecting.

Is there any negotiation behind the scenes on charges or outcomes during the trial ? Was MS trying to make a deal with the Crown last night ? Or does that only happen in movies ?

 

[ILoveDateline]

Exactly, why wouldn't he want the gun to be found and he has admitted to touching it so his fingerprints would on it, without it he looks like a liar! LE has a pretty good picture of when and where he has been and the small window of opportunity for him to dispose of it, if it could have been found it would have. Here's a link to what this creek looks like for those who think you can find a dent and look under it!
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4522...PNB5uu0IJe8jFYwHy=w203-h194!7i864!8i828?hl=en

I envisioned dozens of people storming oakville parks with metal detectors and shovels today and that's the reason for the short day. [emoji2]

Honestly though, i don't think it would be responsible if it was released through the media where the gun was buried. If MS did know where he buried it. That should be info for LE only. JMO.

As other posters have said, it isn't a smoking gun. It still has to be linked back to the crime but I believe if MS could identify where it is, and it was recovered, and ballistics matched the shell in the bosma truck, that's not circumstantial anymore. But It doesn't prove which version of events is true. JMO. Doesn't matter because I don't think the gun will be recovered and the case is strong enough as it is.

 

[don_quixote]

I understand it as he no longer has that option because he declined to present any evidence or testify when it was his turn. Not that his testimony won't do him any good (although I don't believe it could.....) MOO

But there was a material change to the situation. IMO, if he wanted to get on the stand, he still could. Who sets the turns? It's not like they toss a coin when it comes to such serious charges. What if MS was to make the election first? And then DM would get on the stand and say absolutely opposite. That MS was driving and DM thought they are going to Timmie's. I'm not a lawyer but I am 90%+ confident that he'd still be allowed to testify.

 

[Kamille]

Doesn't TD get one more shot with MS after the Crown and DM's lawyer are done with him? I expect that's where he will close.

Was just about to post this. So far, MS hasn't really provided any new evidence, with the exception of the "sheet" at the barn perhaps. So that may be why it's being done this way. So that DM can NOT reopen his case?

So now DM's defense and the Crown will take a turn at MS. And probably open up a LOT of new evidence, but that also does not give DM the chance to reopen his case? It would, however, allow TD to address every new piece of "evidence" that either introduce on cross and try to discount it. And he would end up with the final word on all of it.

MOO