Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #17 [06.03.16 to 06.09.16]

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  • #101
Please excuse me if my formatting doesn't turn out right.

Thank-you XiolaBlueX you bring up a very good point
MS would have much rather just stayed in the Yukon and listened to tunes and then pulled in behind the Bosma truck as it drove past.
Rather he walk half a km. and risked being seen by whom ever.
It might have been part of the plan that he be in the Bosma truck on the way back to the field or as they pulled into it.
You have an interesting angle on this.
Crown might be right as to where the murder actually happened.

I know cases are not won on gutt feelings but for the life of me I can't shake this. I know I've said this theory before and feel I'm just in repeat mode here.
IMO, MS was needed in the TB truck to restraint TB. This theory couldn't be proven so it wasn't tossed into the Crowns theory. Tape (MS text) to restrain TB and MS f-ed up because he didn't do his part well enough. I don't think they planned on killing TB in the truck, too messy. I also believe MS was truthful that TB was shot by DM near the Bobcat on the way to the highway. TB'S body put into the truck box (those luminol pics show alot of glow..why?!) This could also explain why there wasn't any blood/DNA on the trailer or incinerator body (just door opening). Truck backed up to incinerator with TB in the box. U-Turn on video, plans changed from highway and back roads taken to the farm. My theory would make DM the trigger man=1st degree and MS the restraint man=forcible confinement=1st degree as well. I believe murder was the plan for this "mission".
 
  • #102
"
I know cases are not won on gutt feelings but for the life of me I can't shake this. I know I've said this theory before and feel I'm just in repeat mode here.
IMO, MS was needed in the TB truck to restraint TB. This theory couldn't be proven so it wasn't tossed into the Crowns theory. Tape (MS text) to restrain TB and MS f-ed up because he didn't do his part well enough. I don't think they planned on killing TB in the truck, too messy. I also believe MS was truthful that TB was shot by DM near the Bobcat on the way to the highway. TB'S body put into the truck box (those luminol pics show alot of glow..why?!) This could also explain why there wasn't any blood/DNA on the trailer or incinerator body (just door opening). Truck backed up to incinerator with TB in the box. U-Turn on video, plans changed from highway and back roads taken to the farm. My theory would make DM the trigger man=1st degree and MS the restraint man=forcible confinement=1st degree as well. I believe murder was the plan for this "mission".
"

I agree with a few of your points but not all.
I can't see a test drive lasting 35 kms. and still going farther away.
Down the hiway a few clicks and back but not 70 plus.
moo.
 
  • #103
""

I agree with a few of your points but not all.
I can't see a test drive lasting 35 kms. and still going farther away.
Down the hiway a few clicks and back but not 70 plus.
moo.

If one is confined and has no say? Then it's totally possible to make it from the field to the farm.
 
  • #104
I understand that trials can't go on forever. I was just wondering about why TD mentioned in his close that neither the Crown or DM's defence challenged some things MS asserted, and then when TL said that TD refrained from asking MS certain questions, so I wondered then why didn't the Crown use that opportunity to re-examine some witnesses to challenge MS's story.

Sorry I bothered to raise the question. I didn't expect it to cause controversy.

All MOO.

You asked a question, a good question for clarification for yourself and perhaps other members.
No need for apologies.
I enjoy reading your posts and your thoughtful questions.
You are a valued member here. :).
 
  • #105
1) If murder was the plan, DM would have to think that he could do it all alone - take control of TB, shoot him and drive all at the same time - with no assistance, then MS could have been that lost friend and stayed away from the house in the Yukon. There would have been no reason for both of them to go on the actual test drive. It makes no sense for them to walk up together if DM was just going to drop MS off as soon as they left the driveway. Even if murder wasn't the plan, it still makes no sense to drop MS off immediately. Just another reason why MS's story is not believable.

2) If they had been allowed to take the test drive alone, which would be unlikely without leaving some assurance behind but if that did happen, I think they would have just driven away. But then, I'm not convinced that murder was the plan.


Why would DM have to be driving while shooting TB? I've seen this "theory" mentioned many times over the past three years. Shooting while driving would have been risky if TB caught him pulling the gun out and a struggle ensued, but DM wouldn't have really had to take his eyes off the road other than to glance over to make sure he was aiming the gun at his victim. Nothing hard about glancing over considering many people do that a lot when they have a passenger in the car and are talking to them. Matter of fact DM did it when they were on the test drive with Igor. He would glance back at MS. The action of holding the gun in his left dominant hand, with his finger on the trigger would not be difficult, he would just want to be pretty darn confident in his aim. If some people can text and read their phones, apply make up, eat, read a book, shave and all those stupid things some people do while driving, I don't imagine pulling a gun out of his man purse, pointing it in the direction of Tim and pulling the trigger would be that difficult. Being a semi automatic gun, DM might have pulled the trigger more than once consecutively for good measure. Perhaps that is why they overlooked the one casing forensics found in Tim's truck. On the other hand, DM could have made up some excuse for pulling over and then shot TB. He needed to take a leak, check his phone to see if his non existing buddy had text him, needed to adjust the seat, steering wheel, heat controls, radio, or even a stop at a stop sign.

IMO DM took MS to the Bosma's with him as a distraction from himself figuring IF they were ever caught, DM could spin his story just as his defense did...it was MS who brought the gun shot TB. I can see why DM would want to drop MS soon after leaving the Bosma's laneway. They were parked on someone's private property. Wouldn't that have been something if they went back to get the Yukon a half hour or so later and the property owner, LE or a tow truck and driver was there?! The longer the Yukon sat on private property, the chances increased someone would take notice of it.

I don't believe a lot of what MS said in his testimony. He twisted the story to fit the evidence. He is guilty for going along with everything they planned and carried out together, including murder and incinerating their victim. I do not believe MS was the shooter. If he was in the back seat when either of them shot Tim, MS would have been covered in blood and matter. The fact forensics found absolutely no blood or DNA of Tim's in the Yukon speaks volumes. The only other logical explanation would be is that DM pulled over somewhere, DM got out of the backseat, DM got out of the driver's seat, the two of them stood outside the truck on the driver's side and MS then shot TB. I lean more to the speculation DM was the one who shot TB. At this point in time I am past caring about who shot TB. The fact they acted together to carry their wicked and warped plans out makes them both evil, disgusting and guilty of murder. One without the other...Tim would still be alive today. My greatest hope now is they are both found guilty of first degree murder. ALL MOO.
 
  • #106
Why would DM have to be driving while shooting TB? I've seen this "theory" mentioned many times over the past three years. Shooting while driving would have been risky if TB caught him pulling the gun out and a struggle ensued, but DM wouldn't have really had to take his eyes off the road other than to glance over to make sure he was aiming the gun at his victim. Nothing hard about glancing over considering many people do that a lot when they have a passenger in the car and are talking to them. Matter of fact DM did it when they were on the test drive with Igor. He would glance back at MS. The action of holding the gun in his left dominant hand, with his finger on the trigger would not be difficult, he would just want to be pretty darn confident in his aim. If some people can text and read their phones, apply make up, eat, read a book, shave and all those stupid things some people do while driving, I don't imagine pulling a gun out of his man purse, pointing it in the direction of Tim and pulling the trigger would be that difficult. Being a semi automatic gun, DM might have pulled the trigger more than once consecutively for good measure. Perhaps that is why they overlooked the one casing forensics found in Tim's truck. On the other hand, DM could have made up some excuse for pulling over and then shot TB. He needed to take a leak, check his phone to see if his non existing buddy had text him, needed to adjust the seat, steering wheel, heat controls, radio, or even a stop at a stop sign.

IMO DM took MS to the Bosma's with him as a distraction from himself figuring IF they were ever caught, DM could spin his story just as his defense did...it was MS who brought the gun shot TB. I can see why DM would want to drop MS soon after leaving the Bosma's laneway. They were parked on someone's private property. Wouldn't that have been something if they went back to get the Yukon a half hour or so later and the property owner, LE or a tow truck and driver was there?! The longer the Yukon sat on private property, the chances increased someone would take notice of it.

I don't believe a lot of what MS said in his testimony. He twisted the story to fit the evidence. He is guilty for going along with everything they planned and carried out together, including murder and incinerating their victim. I do not believe MS was the shooter. If he was in the back seat when either of them shot Tim, MS would have been covered in blood and matter. The fact forensics found absolutely no blood or DNA of Tim's in the Yukon speaks volumes. The only other logical explanation would be is that DM pulled over somewhere, DM got out of the backseat, DM got out of the driver's seat, the two of them stood outside the truck on the driver's side and MS then shot TB. I lean more to the speculation DM was the one who shot TB. At this point in time I am past caring about who shot TB. The fact they acted together to carry their wicked and warped plans out makes them both evil, disgusting and guilty of murder. One without the other...Tim would still be alive today. My greatest hope now is they are both found guilty of first degree murder. ALL MOO.
Good theory. I would quibble with the reason for MS being in the backseat though. IMO i don't believe DM ever thought about what would happen if he was caught. He thought he had the perfect plan and didn't consider that part of it.
 
  • #107
Why would DM have to be driving while shooting TB? I've seen this "theory" mentioned many times over the past three years.

So is driving tired and super high with CN in his lap. DM was a risk taker.

MOO
 
  • #108
If this trial ends as many expect with first degree murder convictions for both do you think the Crown will proceed with the LB and WM trials? Obviously it is important for those close to the case but I just can't see any REAL time being added to the sentence of DM and MS if they are found guilty of other crimes. Do they even have consecutive sentences in Canada? I would love to see psycho DM put away for 50 or 75 years but I don't think it would work out that way. He'd do the Bosma 25 and anything else would be concurrent (served at the same time)
Anyways justice sure isn't free and it's not as if Ontario is rolling in the money these days so it's a fair question to ask if the Crown would want to proceed with these other trials if there is no chance of the guilty serving more time.
 
  • #109
If this trial ends as many expect with first degree murder convictions for both do you think the Crown will proceed with the LB and WM trials? Obviously it is important for those close to the case but I just can't see any REAL time being added to the sentence of DM and MS if they are found guilty of other crimes. Do they even have consecutive sentences in Canada? I would love to see psycho DM put away for 50 or 75 years but I don't think it would work out that way. He'd do the Bosma 25 and anything else would be concurrent (served at the same time)
Anyways justice sure isn't free and it's not as if Ontario is rolling in the money these days so it's a fair question to ask if the Crown would want to proceed with these other trials if there is no chance of the guilty serving more time.

This is what I found on that topic...

The maximum determinate sentence is a life sentence with a 25-year parole ineligibility period. For offences committed prior to December 2, 2011 all life sentences and related parole ineligibility periods are served concurrently (at the same time). In cases of multiple murder, where the offence occurred after December 2, 2011 (the date new legislation came into force), a court may, after considering any jury recommendation, order consecutive parole ineligibility periods for each murder. There are also options for an indeterminate sentence. There is no death penalty in Canada.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_sentencing_in_Canada



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  • #110
<modsnip> Still curious as to why Arthur wasn't called as a witness, considering he was apparently the one who fetched the toolbox for MS, he would have known first-hand what he had been told about it in advance, estimated the weight of the box, asked why his mom was yelling about it, asked if he opened it and looked inside, asked if he was present when MS opened it, asked what MS said about it afterward, etc.
 
  • #111
If this trial ends as many expect with first degree murder convictions for both do you think the Crown will proceed with the LB and WM trials? Obviously it is important for those close to the case but I just can't see any REAL time being added to the sentence of DM and MS if they are found guilty of other crimes. Do they even have consecutive sentences in Canada? I would love to see psycho DM put away for 50 or 75 years but I don't think it would work out that way. He'd do the Bosma 25 and anything else would be concurrent (served at the same time)
Anyways justice sure isn't free and it's not as if Ontario is rolling in the money these days so it's a fair question to ask if the Crown would want to proceed with these other trials if there is no chance of the guilty serving more time.

I remember reading that people (family members of the additional victims) were upset when the pig farmer out west wasn't pursued in court with murder charges for additional murders he was known to have committed, but the Crown decided not to pursue the additional charges since he had already been convicted of the largest sentence he could get, which at the time was 'life' with no chance of parole sooner than 25 years, and I believe it was the most expensive trial in Canada's history IIRC. The law has changed since then as mentioned above, so that now the judge has the ability to issue consecutive sentences, and so of course there would be a trial for each of the 3 murders that DM is charged with.
 
  • #112
Sometimes, the more one thinks on something, the more confusing it gets? Can someone please lay out the sequence of events in regard to burning the seats at the farm? ie on which day, at what time, in which vehicle did they transport the seats to Ayr for burning? Afterward, did they go back to the hangar, or straight to Oakville to drop MS off and pick up CN? TIA!
 
  • #113
Looking back, I'm curious why the crown didn't ask MS who emptied the incinerator, when, and what was done with the cremains.
 
  • #114
They did ask - Smich denied it.

From Molly Hayes twitter:
Fraser says the other thing going on there..."you had to clean The Eliminator." Smich says "no sir." #Bosma

And then he asked about it being too hot on the night on the murder to clean.
 
  • #115
Sometimes, the more one thinks on something, the more confusing it gets? Can someone please lay out the sequence of events in regard to burning the seats at the farm? ie on which day, at what time, in which vehicle did they transport the seats to Ayr for burning? Afterward, did they go back to the hangar, or straight to Oakville to drop MS off and pick up CN? TIA!

Probably be able to see that on billandrew's timeline - https://goo.gl/URpYBy
 
  • #116
Why would DM have to be driving while shooting TB? I've seen this "theory" mentioned many times over the past three years.

I wasn't posting a "theory". I was simply answering a question posed by the OP and basing my opinion on MS's story of what happened.

Shooting while driving would have been risky if TB caught him pulling the gun out and a struggle ensued, but DM wouldn't have really had to take his eyes off the road other than to glance over to make sure he was aiming the gun at his victim. Nothing hard about glancing over considering many people do that a lot when they have a passenger in the car and are talking to them. Matter of fact DM did it when they were on the test drive with Igor. He would glance back at MS. The action of holding the gun in his left dominant hand, with his finger on the trigger would not be difficult, he would just want to be pretty darn confident in his aim. If some people can text and read their phones, apply make up, eat, read a book, shave and all those stupid things some people do while driving, I don't imagine pulling a gun out of his man purse, pointing it in the direction of Tim and pulling the trigger would be that difficult. Being a semi automatic gun, DM might have pulled the trigger more than once consecutively for good measure. Perhaps that is why they overlooked the one casing forensics found in Tim's truck. On the other hand, DM could have made up some excuse for pulling over and then shot TB. He needed to take a leak, check his phone to see if his non existing buddy had text him, needed to adjust the seat, steering wheel, heat controls, radio, or even a stop at a stop sign.

Again, my opinion was based on MS's version, which did not include anything about stopping to do the actual shooting. But if you're going to compare it to using a phone, eating, reading, or any of those other things, I would have to guess that you've never actually shot a gun.

IMO DM took MS to the Bosma's with him as a distraction from himself figuring IF they were ever caught, DM could spin his story just as his defense did...it was MS who brought the gun shot TB. I can see why DM would want to drop MS soon after leaving the Bosma's laneway. They were parked on someone's private property. Wouldn't that have been something if they went back to get the Yukon a half hour or so later and the property owner, LE or a tow truck and driver was there?! The longer the Yukon sat on private property, the chances increased someone would take notice of it.

I would think the chances of anyone coming across the Yukon, parked in a field on a country road, in the approximately 20 minutes between leaving on the test drive and heading back to the farm would have been pretty slim. The chances of a tow truck showing up in those 20 minutes would have been almost non-existent.

I don't believe a lot of what MS said in his testimony. He twisted the story to fit the evidence. He is guilty for going along with everything they planned and carried out together, including murder and incinerating their victim. I do not believe MS was the shooter. If he was in the back seat when either of them shot Tim, MS would have been covered in blood and matter. The fact forensics found absolutely no blood or DNA of Tim's in the Yukon speaks volumes. The only other logical explanation would be is that DM pulled over somewhere, DM got out of the backseat, DM got out of the driver's seat, the two of them stood outside the truck on the driver's side and MS then shot TB. I lean more to the speculation DM was the one who shot TB.

I'm not sure why people think the person in the back seat would be covered in blood and matter no matter who shot TB. Here is a recent shooting in Toronto that was done at close range. WARNING: GRAPHIC VIDEO. How much blood do you think was on this shooter when he ran away?

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/06/02/shocking-video-released-in-shooting-of-cyclist

At this point in time I am past caring about who shot TB. The fact they acted together to carry their wicked and warped plans out makes them both evil, disgusting and guilty of murder. One without the other...Tim would still be alive today. My greatest hope now is they are both found guilty of first degree murder. ALL MOO.

This part I agree with. It doesn't matter who pulled the trigger. It also doesn't matter whether the correct charge is first degree or second degree. Both were there before, during and after, and acting together, and both are equally guilty.

All JMO.
 
  • #117
Why would DM have to be driving while shooting TB? I've seen this "theory" mentioned many times over the past three years. Shooting while driving would have been risky if TB caught him pulling the gun out and a struggle ensued, but DM wouldn't have really had to take his eyes off the road other than to glance over to make sure he was aiming the gun at his victim. Nothing hard about glancing over considering many people do that a lot when they have a passenger in the car and are talking to them. Matter of fact DM did it when they were on the test drive with Igor. He would glance back at MS. The action of holding the gun in his left dominant hand, with his finger on the trigger would not be difficult, he would just want to be pretty darn confident in his aim. If some people can text and read their phones, apply make up, eat, read a book, shave and all those stupid things some people do while driving, I don't imagine pulling a gun out of his man purse, pointing it in the direction of Tim and pulling the trigger would be that difficult. Being a semi automatic gun, DM might have pulled the trigger more than once consecutively for good measure. Perhaps that is why they overlooked the one casing forensics found in Tim's truck. On the other hand, DM could have made up some excuse for pulling over and then shot TB. He needed to take a leak, check his phone to see if his non existing buddy had text him, needed to adjust the seat, steering wheel, heat controls, radio, or even a stop at a stop sign.

IMO DM took MS to the Bosma's with him as a distraction from himself figuring IF they were ever caught, DM could spin his story just as his defense did...it was MS who brought the gun shot TB. I can see why DM would want to drop MS soon after leaving the Bosma's laneway. They were parked on someone's private property. Wouldn't that have been something if they went back to get the Yukon a half hour or so later and the property owner, LE or a tow truck and driver was there?! The longer the Yukon sat on private property, the chances increased someone would take notice of it.

I don't believe a lot of what MS said in his testimony. He twisted the story to fit the evidence. He is guilty for going along with everything they planned and carried out together, including murder and incinerating their victim. I do not believe MS was the shooter. If he was in the back seat when either of them shot Tim, MS would have been covered in blood and matter. The fact forensics found absolutely no blood or DNA of Tim's in the Yukon speaks volumes. The only other logical explanation would be is that DM pulled over somewhere, DM got out of the backseat, DM got out of the driver's seat, the two of them stood outside the truck on the driver's side and MS then shot TB. I lean more to the speculation DM was the one who shot TB. At this point in time I am past caring about who shot TB. The fact they acted together to carry their wicked and warped plans out makes them both evil, disgusting and guilty of murder. One without the other...Tim would still be alive today. My greatest hope now is they are both found guilty of first degree murder. ALL MOO.

I can't see any way TB could have made it that far alive unless he was restrained. If he came to and tried to escape his restraints when the driver is alone, there is tons of time to pull over and shoot.
 
  • #118
Sometimes, the more one thinks on something, the more confusing it gets? Can someone please lay out the sequence of events in regard to burning the seats at the farm? ie on which day, at what time, in which vehicle did they transport the seats to Ayr for burning? Afterward, did they go back to the hangar, or straight to Oakville to drop MS off and pick up CN? TIA!

I was under the impression, from MS testimony that he was putting evidence into the red Ram. His testimony differed from the supposed timeline where burning was noticed in the morning. He doesn't admit to being on his own though the cell pings suggest otherwise. I wonder if the paper shredding with CN happened later and if it actually referred to cleaning the incinerator? Was there a lot of paperwork that needed to be disposed of that was fireproof? And if so, why forget the most damning piece, the incinerator receipt?
Whether it was CN or MS who cleaned it out, it shows that when you want to hire a cleaner you should get your candidate to bring a snapshot of their bedroom first.
 
  • #119
If this trial ends as many expect with first degree murder convictions for both do you think the Crown will proceed with the LB and WM trials? Obviously it is important for those close to the case but I just can't see any REAL time being added to the sentence of DM and MS if they are found guilty of other crimes. Do they even have consecutive sentences in Canada? I would love to see psycho DM put away for 50 or 75 years but I don't think it would work out that way. He'd do the Bosma 25 and anything else would be concurrent (served at the same time)
Anyways justice sure isn't free and it's not as if Ontario is rolling in the money these days so it's a fair question to ask if the Crown would want to proceed with these other trials if there is no chance of the guilty serving more time.

Keep in mind that if guilty of the other murders they could be labeled as dangerous offenders and be kept in jail much longer , if not forever.
 
  • #120
Keep in mind that if guilty of the other murders they could be labeled as dangerous offenders and be kept in jail much longer , if not forever.

They can be kept in jail forever on the murder convictions too. There is no statutory release date and parole wouldn't necessarily be granted just because they become eligible to apply. Interestingly, parole for a dangerous offender can be requested after 7 years (4 years for day parole). If granted parole, offenders are monitored for life, regardless of whether the conviction was murder or whether deemed a dangerous offender. Hence why the designation of a dangerous offender is usually reserved for other violent crimes and rarely comes up for murder charges.

http://www.lop.parl.gc.ca/content/lop/researchpublications/prb0613-e.htm#E-Sentencing
 
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