Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #17 [06.03.16 to 06.09.16]

[Variant]

So who initiated the gun in the toolbox from MH to MS? MS? DM?

All circumstantial evidence provided by LE and witnesses related to the gun movement put MS as the one who instructed getting the gun from MH. BD added that MS said it was his gun. MS also didn't hesitate to put DM's gun up for sale, if it was DM's gun.

MOO

But DM was the one who had the gun in the toolbox and started it on its travels.

 

[cansleuther]

DM as described by the witnesses was wearing more than a t-shirt.

WDB could not remember what DM was wearing:

De Boer doesn't recall what he wore, but remembers his demeanour.

SB recalled DM was wearing a long-sleeved orange shirt - she did not specify if it was a long-sleeved t-shirt or a button-down.

She remembers him wearing blue jeans, a long-sleeved orange shirt.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6260487-bosma-trial-hears-one-friendly-man-one-reclusive-showed-up-for-test-drive/


And, according to the Crown's opening address, DM was wearing an orange t-shirt on the test drive with IT the previous day:

He was wearing light blue jeans, orange t-shirt and carrying an “Indiana Jones” style satchel bag.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2016/02/tim-bosma-trial-the-crowns-opening-statement.html

 

[brightii]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/bosma-closing-argument-crown-1.3612291

I agree with TL when he said to the jury "If you are spending your time trying to decide who did what, you are missing the point." It is not necessary to figure out which one - DM or MS - shot TB to find them both guilty of first degree murder. They both planned to rob TB of his truck and had a gun and TB ended up dead within minutes of having met MS and DM, and then within a couple of hours, TB was incinerated.

Sometimes the devil really is in the details and that devil is tempting to distract people from seeing the totality of the evidence clearly. Every detail when piled one upon the other adds up to a huge mountain of evidence against both accused. It's a mountain of evidence that LE and the Crown expertly compiled, but there's no doubt in my mind that it was DM and MS who built the mountain together! Thankfully, by their mutual carelessness and overconfidence both, DM and MS lead LE and the Crown directly to the base of the mountain and practically gave them a guide map to climb it. Thanks to these two vicious killers the mountain of evidence was built on a very firm foundation and when the Crown started at the bottom they found their way to the top and once the guilty verdicts are formalized, I hope the Crown will place it's victory flag on top in honour of Tim Bosma.

Neither accused nor their counsel could climb over the mountain to dispute its existence or make it disappear simply by denial or wishful thinking. No amount of creative writing by DM in his letters or earnest story telling on the stand by MS could change the facts or challenge the overall outcome of this trial. We don't have to know all the details, all the where's and why's or why not's to accept what the Crown has convincingly concluded. We just have to believe that the Crown is acting with integrity in their thorough presentation of the facts in their totality, and advocating for justice for Tim Bosma with genuine conviction in their belief that the mountain of evidence makes a first degree murder conviction for both accused the right decision for the jury in the end. I trust that in this very complicated murder case the Crown got it just right.

All MOO.

 

[KayCherry]

This case is so disturbing - I can only check in, I get sick reading the sheer malice these culprits had. Sad.

 

[Variant]

WDB could not remember what DM was wearing:




SB recalled DM was wearing a long-sleeved orange shirt - she did not specify if it was a long-sleeved t-shirt or a button-down.




http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6260487-bosma-trial-hears-one-friendly-man-one-reclusive-showed-up-for-test-drive/


And, according to the Crown's opening address, DM was wearing an orange t-shirt on the test drive with IT the previous day:




http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2016/02/tim-bosma-trial-the-crowns-opening-statement.html

Whatever DM is wearing in the hangar walk video looks like it has lots of room to conceal a gun.

 

[brightii]

Whatever DM is wearing in the hangar walk video looks like it has lots of room to conceal a gun.

Great observation. I agree.

All MOO.

 

[Redwing]

I know cases are not won on gutt feelings but for the life of me I can't shake this. I know I've said this theory before and feel I'm just in repeat mode here.
IMO, MS was needed in the TB truck to restraint TB. This theory couldn't be proven so it wasn't tossed into the Crowns theory. Tape (MS text) to restrain TB and MS f-ed up because he didn't do his part well enough. I don't think they planned on killing TB in the truck, too messy. I also believe MS was truthful that TB was shot by DM near the Bobcat on the way to the highway. TB'S body put into the truck box (those luminol pics show alot of glow..why?!) This could also explain why there wasn't any blood/DNA on the trailer or incinerator body (just door opening). Truck backed up to incinerator with TB in the box. U-Turn on video, plans changed from highway and back roads taken to the farm. My theory would make DM the trigger man=1st degree and MS the restraint man=forcible confinement=1st degree as well. I believe murder was the plan for this "mission".

Awful to think about but your theory makes a lot of sense

 

[Errrr]

I have yet to see a holster that would conceal a weapon under a tee shirt. Then there would be getting it out of a hidden holster while driving.

I agree with TL, there is no way he would have been able to drive and keep a gun on someone while driving. And I agree with an earlier poster who said that if one thinks that they can drive and shoot a person at the same time, that person has likely never fired a gun.

I imagine that LE checked the roads where footage of the Ram was spotted for broken glass, and the field as well. They would have looked for spots where a truck pulled off the road and onto the shoulders. Pulling over would have given Tim a chance to escape.

MS was desperate to get his hands on the weapon to get rid of it without ever allowing for it to be recovered. It could be used to kill other people whther he gets out of jail or not. BD said MS told him it was his gun in the toolbox, and he had no reason to lie about that, unlike MS who contradicted him. The crown showed that DM didn't have his satchel and wouldn't have been able to retrieve it without arousing major suspicion in Tim. MS acted shady, hid from the witnesses and told everyone he f'ed up.

DM could have observed TB coming to and trying to free himself from tape.
Everyone has pretty well agreed there was a gun and it was used to kill Tim. Having the actual gun at this point is academic.
Didn't Sachak say DM had the satchel at the Bosma house in his closing?

 

[canadiangirl]

Interesting poll done in another group. Out of approx 1000 people who took the poll. 89% said DM would be found guilty of first degree. Also out of approx 1000 people 43% said MS would be found guilty of M1.

 

[Errrr]

Interesting poll done in another group. Out of approx 1000 people who took the poll. 89% said DM would be found guilty of first degree. Also out of approx 1000 people 43% said MS would be found guilty of M1.

Well, it stands to reason that the more complicated the case, the more instruction would be required for the average person (not a legal professional) to make a decision involving reasonable doubt.

 

[Claroon]

Whatever DM is wearing in the hangar walk video looks like it has lots of room to conceal a gun.

And the gun described is very small and lightweight if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Claroon]

I know cases are not won on gutt feelings but for the life of me I can't shake this. I know I've said this theory before and feel I'm just in repeat mode here.
IMO, MS was needed in the TB truck to restraint TB. This theory couldn't be proven so it wasn't tossed into the Crowns theory. Tape (MS text) to restrain TB and MS f-ed up because he didn't do his part well enough. I don't think they planned on killing TB in the truck, too messy. I also believe MS was truthful that TB was shot by DM near the Bobcat on the way to the highway. TB'S body put into the truck box (those luminol pics show alot of glow..why?!) This could also explain why there wasn't any blood/DNA on the trailer or incinerator body (just door opening). Truck backed up to incinerator with TB in the box. U-Turn on video, plans changed from highway and back roads taken to the farm. My theory would make DM the trigger man=1st degree and MS the restraint man=forcible confinement=1st degree as well. I believe murder was the plan for this "mission".

My gut feeling is a little similar. I think MS pulled the gun on TB right away and shot him, then they got MS into the Yukon, pulled off at Kemira (where the phone was found) DM pulled out a gun and shot him again to finish him off. There is nothing to say he wasn't shot more than once! Only found one casing, but I'm sure MS would have moved any found in his cleanup or others could be on the road somewhere. Then they pulled over to Bobcat to regroup, celebrate, shake it off, wrap him in the tarp, figure out where the heck they were, and then turn around, throw the phone and head to the farm. Evil and only out for murder to prove they could do it. IMO

 

[Claroon]

DM owned a concealment holster he bought from eBay specifically to hold the Walther. Quite possible that DM was wearing it, and it is marketed for concealment under light clothing and for easy withdrawal of the gun even when sitting.

No need for MS to carry or try to conceal the weapon.

It's possible for DM to shoot while driving or any time he stopped the truck along the route.

And he very well could have stopped anywhere along the route that LE didn't have an image of. IMO

 

[Claroon]

Hey all - I have a couple of completely hypothetical and purely speculative questions if that's ok ---- curious of different points of view. I drove by the field/TB residence area today, and my mind was moving around on a couple of things
1) why do you think MS didn't just drop off DM at the house and be that friend 'lost, trying to find a Tim Hortons' msged of parking it nearby like that and having to both show up
2) when MS and DM got to the TB residence, what if TB had just given them the keys for the truck to take a quick test drive (a stretch, I know, but I'm sure some people have done it) Do you think they would have (obviously) just taken the truck.... and been happy about that? Or do you think that they were premeditating it to the extent that they would be disappointed that they didn't get to kill somebody?

bbm Good questions. the first one I'd say because they planned for MS to be in the truck too.

The second one is different and one I never thought of. I have no idea.

What if TB had asked him for a driver's license? That would have really put DM on the spot. He wouldn't let him drive without one I bet. But if they planned to kill him anyhow, it wouldn't matter if he showed it unless TB wrote it down and left it in the house.

 

[Claroon]

I am hoping that WSer Juballee might be able to answer my question as it pertains to something she posted a couple of months ago. But, if anyone else knows the answer, please feel free to step in [emoji846]

I also realize that this isn't of importance, it is simply curiosity on my part, due to a few of the text messages we have seen.

I was searching the threads to see if I could find anything about "Scott" or "Scotty". I came across this post from Juballee for which I made a screenshot, because Tapatalk doesn't seem to let me post a link to a WS comment.

Anyhow, Juballee, you mention Scotty in this post, and that the Crown asked LW2 his last name and other info and was satisfied with LW2's answers (paraphrasing), but that the media didn't fully tweet or explain about Scotty, thus keeping him a mystery.

I am guessing that you must have attended court that day in order to know this?

If that is the case, could you please share anymore info about what you heard about Scotty's relationship with DM and LW2, or was this something that was discussed without the jury present?

TIA

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There is a SM mentioned in billandrew's timeline 4 times. "May 9 8:21 pm Scott Moose texts Millard: "are you available?" Day 37: Harrison testimony
May 9 8:28 pm Millard texts Scott Moose: "something just turned very sour, gonna be busy until at least midnight."

Since LW also mentioned him I assume it is a mutual connection. IMO

 

[Claroon]

""

I agree with a few of your points but not all.
I can't see a test drive lasting 35 kms. and still going farther away.
Down the hiway a few clicks and back but not 70 plus.
moo.

The problem is the test drive after the first 10 min. or even sooner was probably no longer a test drive, but an under duress escapade with a gun on TB and a lunatic behind the wheel.

 

[Juballee]

Whatever DM is wearing in the hangar walk video looks like it has lots of room to conceal a gun.

I don't remember seeing room for a holster in that video, but I do remember that what MS was wearing in that video looked like it had plenty of room to conceal a weapon.

If DM was wearing a secret hidden holster that the crown didn't mention, why did he need his satchel? Isn't his satchel seen in the video? That would have been after he had had time to visit the Yukon to retrieve it, after TB was already dead and could no longer be surprised and put on guard by stopping at an empty Yukon. MS's story was the only one who had DM wearing the satchel on the test drive, neither Sharlene or her tenant saw a man with a purse.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

There is a SM mentioned in billandrew's timeline 4 times. "May 98:21 pmScott Moose texts Millard: "are you available?"Day 37: Harrison testimony
May 98:28 pmMillard texts Scott Moose: "something just turned very sour, gonna be busy until at least midnight."

Since LW also mentioned him I assume it is a mutual connection. IMO

Thank you Claroon! I just always wondered if Scotty Moose was also involved in some kind of nefarious activity, being as Millard texted Whidden to tell Scotty to stay away from him because he was hot. What reason would Scotty have to stay away from Millard because he was in trouble? It seems to me like it was a warning to Scotty, meaning that Scotty could also face some kind of trouble if caught with Millard.

If that is true, and Scotty was a mutual acquaintance of Millard and Whidden, she sure knows how to pick them, doesn't she? Wonder what is going through her mind now, knowing she slept with such a vile killer who, without a care in the world, took the life of a loving husband, father, son and brother? And possibly two other human beings as well. The world lost such a fine, decent man, and the world has been left with two vile monsters, their gifts of life intact, who couldn't give a damn about any other person's life. What can be more senseless, more unjust or sadder than that?

I wonder the same about Noudga. And both CN and LW2 were so haughty and arrogant on the stand, and seemed to have no respect/regard for the justice system or empathy for the Bosmas. It is almost as if they aren't able to comprehend the seriousness or horror or senselessness of what happened ... Much more interested in how this has effected THEM. IMO, both Whidden and Noudga display a huge disconnect from understanding the enormous tragedy that has unfolded. They must be very self-centred people, IMO.

Anyhow, I see I have gone off on a tangent here, lol. In my original post to WSer Juballee I said it was only a matter of curiosity on my part about Scotty, because she had said in her post that the media held back tweets and information about Scotty in order to create a mystery to sell more papers. Nothing important at all [emoji4]

Hope you're all enjoying a fine weekend!

As always MOO.

 

[Inspector_North]

But DM was the one who had the gun in the toolbox and started it on its travels.

That is very true, but something caused MS to take ownership of the gun the moment DM was arrested. Was it something both planned during the 52 minute visit from DM? Was it DM trying to get the gun into MS's hands to frame MS? Was it MS trying to get his gun back to get rid of it?

IMO, it was the visit and what MS interpreted he could do with the gun if DM was arrested. There is something about that toolbox that both wanted its contents gone, and not just the shooter(s).

MOO

 

[JuneBug67]

I don't remember seeing room for a holster in that video, but I do remember that what MS was wearing in that video looked like it had plenty of room to conceal a weapon.

If DM was wearing a secret hidden holster that the crown didn't mention, why did he need his satchel? Isn't his satchel seen in the video? That would have been after he had had time to visit the Yukon to retrieve it, after TB was already dead and could no longer be surprised and put on guard by stopping at an empty Yukon. MS's story was the only one who had DM wearing the satchel on the test drive, neither Sharlene or her tenant saw a man with a purse.

DM's satchel just seemed to be a frequent part of his apparel, and I don't know that we need to figure out a special reason for him having it. IF the holster had anything to do with this crime and IF he was really seen putting a gun in his satchel, that's not inconsistent with the fact that holsters are designed for quick, easy, one-handed access to a weapon, and satchels are not. Maybe it was just easier to take out of the holster, but once used easier to put back in to the satchel, at least temporarily.