Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #17 [06.03.16 to 06.09.16]

[deugirtni]

We only have his best friend's testimony that it was his gun. I think a few other witnesses could have shed more light on that but for some reason they were not called.

I wonder what such a reason could be?

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

What was DM's reply to MS talking about contacting Isho, I forget? Why don't we have MS's phone records to verify that he did contact Isho? And didn't Isho also sell drugs? Maybe MS was just looking to score.

I would have thought that the meeting on the Thursday was to make their plans in case DM got arrested, I wonder what changed about the plan overnight? If MS thought he could be arrested at any minute too, I'm surprised he would have wanted the gun anywhere near himself unless he thought it could be useful to him or if he thought it could incriminate him if he didn't get rid of it.

My opinion only

I am posting a screenshot from billandrew's fantastic timeline. These are all from Friday, May 10.

Of note from this timeline with reference to your post:

1. Just after dropping of the toolbox to Hagerman, Millard texts Smitch:

Retooled for stormy weather, all clear, getting some sleep now ...

2. Shortly after that, Smitch sends multiple messages to Millard from his iPad which had been deleted and were unrecoverable.

3. Later in the afternoon, Smitch messages Millard:

Check Squishy soon ttyl ..Ima link him today.

4. Later that evening, Millard visits Smitch for 50 minutes.

Shortly thereafter, Millard is arrested.


IMO, #1 -- beyond a doubt, DM is telling MS that he has taken care of the gun(s)

IMO, #2 -- shows that there was much more communication between DM and MS, and they were certainly not discussing the weather. Unfortunately we will never know, but we can say that most probably it was to do with getting rid of the evidence, because, after all, what was most pressing to them at this point? Hiding evidence, planning how not to get caught.

IMO, #3 -- Without a doubt, MS was contacting Squishy Isho about the gun(s) ... We can make a strong valid assumption that because MS is mentioning this to DM, they had spoken about this together earlier ... NO WAY, in all the chaos they are currently in would they be contacting Squishy about drugs ... The gun(s) were purchased from Isho. They wanted Isho's help to somehow get them out of a huge mess.

IMO, #4 -- A great deal can be discussed in 50 minutes ... There is no doubt that they were planning how to fix the massive problems they had created for for themselves. Probably even discussed fleeing.

Neither one of them knew when or even if they were going to be arrested ... DM, at least, more than likely thought he had covered all the bases, and/or was clever enough to outsmart LE ... In his incomprehensible mind he believed he was entitled and infallible.

My screenshot trimmed off the times ... For a better read please visit billandrew's timeline:


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hb6kEtpLa8cHCVorBuy4yqfHymGvhfHeM6s8QMWGVW8/pubhtml


P.S. Perhaps they didn't have MS phone call records to Isho because MS got rid of his SIM card, or used an unknown person's phone ... Regardless, I am sure LE tried their utmost to gather all the info and evidence they could, but, unfortunately, criminals enact criminal behaviour, which includes disappearing evidence, leaving it impossible for LE to find.

MOO

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[MrsThreadgoode]

Welcome, Teamsundin, and thanks for the thoughtful post. I had forgotten about the shell casing, and what an unlikely spot it was found in.

I agree with most of what you are saying except for the burner phone and the incinerator.

I can see having the burner phone if he had lots of drugs he was probably selling, and using it to set up the appointment if he was planning on possibly stealing the truck later would make sense in my opinion. As you say, he seem like a calculating planner who would have thought ahead, but the phone was apparently used for contacting all kinds of other people, so I wouldn't be able to say that it was bought for this crime. If the phone had been bought that weekend, and only used for that, I would fully agree with you on that point though.

I am not sure on what the limits are for premeditation when it comes to how long ago something was bought in advance of a crime. Nor am I sure what the laws are regarding buying something that one planned to use in a particular crime but then happened to use it in a later subsequent crime. Or even the laws around buying something that one planned to use for another purpose but then got used in a crime. I'm uncertain about the premeditation factor for the incinerator because of those questions, I suppose.

BBM

Are you saying that the Lucas Bate burner phone, proven to be purchased by DM, was used for contacting lots of other people? Do you have a link to that information?


MOO



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[andreww]

If you compare the evidence against MS and the evidence against DM, sure it might not look like they have enough to convict MS. Personally, I think the amount of evidence they have towards DM is totally unusual, as he left evidence and paper trails everywhere. MS was a little more careful but he still left enough crumbs for the Crown, IMO.

So without comparing the amount of evidence they have between the two accused, IMO they still have plenty of evidence to convict MS of 1st degree.

I get the feeling that MS was hurt by being tried alongside Millard. Would the case against him look so strong without all the evidence against Millard as support?


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[andreww]

The debate isn't whether he had the satchel in the hanger later or with him that night at all, it is whether or not we belive SB, her tenant, and the crown who all say he wasn't wearing it when he picked up Tim. Evidence that he had it after or before doesn't dispute the crown or SB who said he didn't have it at that time. Washing it after doesn't mean he was wearing it in the Bosma's driveway either. It could have transferred blood or GSR after just as easily as during the crime, it isn't proof of being the gunman or not.

Not sure why this is such a contentious point or why SB and the crown have to be proven wrong on this, it's not like the crown's case hinges on DM being the holder of the gun or not. Perhaps we should agree to disagree.

Sorry, when did the crown ever say he wasn't wearing the satchel?


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[CJPRINCESS]

There is confusion here because SB, nor WDB, did not ever testify that DM was NOT wearing his satchel when he went into the car. It is only the prosecution who is stating this as fact, and unfortunately for DM, the Crown's questions and remarks are not evidence. This is not a contentious point, because I think everybody gets this, but that is only my opinion, perhaps some do not.

Jumping off your post as well

I remember going back and looking at the trial blogs for this on the last debate. You are correct. SB wasn't asked about the satchel nor did she offer anything on it. WB was asked about the satchel and the backpack but could not say yes or no for certain. He and SB were in the garage engaged in conversation (as per testimony) so complete focus was not on DM and MS.

It's also possible that DM had his satchel slung on him but the content part on his back area and not his hip. This could also make it unnoticeable or not so obvious. Or maybe even under his shirt which could explain such a small spot of blood.

So there is nothing here to suggest who we should believe. Of course we'd believe SB and WB if they actually said they had seen it or didn't see it

The video only proves that he had his satchel that night but not that he had it on earlier. However I'm believing he did have it. There was blood on the satchel but was diluted and no DNA could be distracted from it. Forensic suggested it had been washed. Being washed would also clear the GSR.

Also, who's to say that even if MS had the gun (in his hoodie) that he didn't pass it to DM? Taken from behind at gunpoint, gun switches hands, MS restrains TB. I know I'd be terrified and probably not put up a fight with a gun pointed at me. Unless someone is distracted (driving maybe) and I got out of the shabby tape job and tried to escape.

All MOO

 

[CJPRINCESS]

BBM

Are you saying that the Lucas Bate burner phone, proven to be purchased by DM, was used for contacting lots of other people? Do you have a link to that information?


MOO



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I was thinking the same thing. The only people I remember hearing about were just the truck sellers DM contacted. Maybe I missed something as well?

 

[andreww]

Jumping off your post as well

I remember going back and looking at the trial blogs for this on the last debate. You are correct. SB wasn't asked about the satchel nor did she offer anything on it. WB was asked about the satchel and the backpack but could not say yes or no for certain. He and SB were in the garage engaged in conversation (as per testimony) so complete focus was not on DM and MS.

It's also possible that DM had his satchel slung on him but the content part on his back area and not his hip. This could also make it unnoticeable or not so obvious. Or maybe even under his shirt which could explain such a small spot of blood.

So there is nothing here to suggest who we should believe. Of course we'd believe SB and WB if they actually said they had seen it or didn't see it

The video only proves that he had his satchel that night but not that he had it on earlier. However I'm believing he did have it. There was blood on the satchel but was diluted and no DNA could be distracted from it. Forensic suggested it had been washed. Being washed would also clear the GSR.

Also, who's to say that even if MS had the gun (in his hoodie) that he didn't pass it to DM? Taken from behind at gunpoint, gun switches hands, MS restrains TB. I know I'd be terrified and probably not put up a fight with a gun pointed at me. Unless someone is distracted (driving maybe) and I got out of the shabby tape job and tried to escape.

All MOO

The way I look at it, the IT test drive was aborted only because of IT's size and military training, not because of any sort of flaw in their plan, so it would seem logical that the exact same plan would have been in effect on the TB test drive. Millard wore the satchel to the IT test drive, it makes sense that he would wear it to the TB test-drive as well. The hangar video confirms he was wearing it. I don't see any logical reason why Millard would have had the satchel with him but not started wearing it until sometime after 10:00 PM.

IMO he wore it the entire night and it likely held the gun.

 

[CJPRINCESS]

We only have his best friend's testimony that it was his gun. I think a few other witnesses could have shed more light on that but for some reason they were not called.

I believe was asked and she said no, she didn't know that MS had a gun. You'd think she'd know, she was with him practically 24/7. Who knows, maybe she's still lying for him.

 

[ABro]

It could very well be, however I am not convinced of that.. because:
-DM was beginning to conjure up a framing scenario even before his arrest, it was like it was the first thing for his mind to think of, he just hadn't decided who the fallguy would be yet (personally it makes me wonder if DM had earlier thoughts about trying to frame AJ for this crime)
-according to testimony MS was taken aback when he realized the gun was in the toolbox when he was apparently expecting drugs
-there is apparently no evidence that MS knew 'the thing' had a gun inside
-MS apparently took the discovery of the gun in the toolbox as a sign that DM was out to frame him, and acted paranoid from then on
-DM's lawyer was on the news alluding to a 'framing aspect', although I'm not sure on the timing in relation to the toolbox content discovery

MS may have been bewildered, confused, scared, paranoid, not knowing what to think about his friend at that point.. not knowing whether to try to protect his friend who turned loony and still owed him money for participating in the theft, or to risk being charged with more crimes than he believed he was guilty of by turning on DM if he thought DM was framing him. He may have heard tales of how the original gun dealers may come down on buyers who risk exposing them through being caught by LE with one of their guns. I am just saying that MS making the gun disappear forever is not proof or evidence that MS was the shooter, nor the gun's ability to prove who the shooter was, nor even who owned the gun. moo

This seems to be a bit of a repeated theme here -- the idea that because DM was conjuring up framing scenarios MS must be innocent.

Crooks, thieves and killers turn on each other all the time.

And as soon as DM was arrested, MS lost no time telling Marlena that DM was responsible for everything.

They both pointed the finger at each other.

DM's lawyer's framing story was given on Wednesday May 15. The toolbox moved four days earlier.

 

[ILoveDateline]

IMO, #3 -- Without a doubt, MS was contacting Squishy Isho about the gun(s) ... We can make a strong valid assumption that because MS is mentioning this to DM, they had spoken about this together earlier ... NO WAY, in all the chaos they are currently in would they be contacting Squishy about drugs ... The gun(s) were purchased from Isho. They wanted Isho's help to somehow get them out of a huge mess.


P.S. Perhaps they didn't have MS phone call records to Isho because MS got rid of his SIM card, or used an unknown person's phone ... Regardless, I am sure LE tried their utmost to gather all the info and evidence they could, but, unfortunately, criminals enact criminal behaviour, which includes disappearing evidence, leaving it impossible for LE to find.

MOO

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Snipped for space.

I agree with everything you said, except, I have issues believing Isho would help, or want the gun back. I don't know the underground gun blackmarket in the slightest but I can assume Isho would ask why the gun needed to be gone and, if told the truth, wouldn't want to get involved. I could be wrong. If the idea is that Isho is a bad mamma jamma and crossing him could be dangerous, then you wouldn't bring him evidence that could get him in trouble. Unless it's very easy to sell guns to gang members, who don't care if the gun is clean, but that would have to be done lickity spit. So, perhaps they tried Isho and he said, no way Jose.

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[robynhood]

JHMO...I agree with the CROWN ...BOTH were there taking TB for the test drive and BOTH took TB truck back to the hanger . NO one report TB death so I feel it really does not matter who shot the FINAL BULLET and killed Tim Bosma ...JMHO again I think the jury will find BOTH guilty and BOTH should spend the rest of their LIFE IN JAIL...again JMHO ...they were both heavily involved in the murder ! there was planning on stealing a truck and TB lost his life as they are both involved.I have been reading all of the threads for days...I felt the need to just state my opinion. I also think JMHO that BOTH of their GF were hevily involved in hiding evidence as their phone recorders indicate...I was just reading them too....IMO Robynhood.....been reading and following this case since it happened too...

 

[Juballee]

Thanks. I see your point about the burner phone but if I were legitimately looking to buy a truck as suggested by Millard I would need no reason to use a disposable phone. After all I'm only buying a truck from this guy not dealing drugs with him. I would have no reason to hide.

As for the incinerator I look at the lies about it being used for animal cremation, garbage, and none of them appearing to be true. It was purchased a while ago but this is also not the sort of thing that can be bought and setup in days or weeks either. It's also that it seemed as though there was no deciding what they should do with the body, no deliberation, certainly smich didn't attest to it. It was almost like a forgone conclusion that that was where he was going to go next and that's why it looks like it must have been planned. It would be an awful convenient situation to have a body you need to get rid of and conveniently dellen has an incinerator ready and available for use which does not need to be maintained or altered after its alleged animal or garbage use

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At trial, the pretence of buying a truck was dropped in favour of admitting it was a plan to steal a truck, so the disposable phone was still a logical choice, in my opinion.

The incinerator was something that was bought and set up in a couple of weeks, if I recall correctly.

We don't know what deliberations they had about covering up the crime after the fact, but I feel that if it were a planned murder for that night, that there is no reason why they would have both walked up the the door to both be seen by witnesses, and then leave the Yukon near his house, and then come back for it with a dead body in the truck, to me that is a crazy risk that I can't see someone who likes to plan things making.

But that's just my personal opinion, and I respect yours.

 

[andreww]

Snipped for space.

I agree with everything you said, except, I have issues believing Isho would help, or want the gun back. I don't know the underground gun blackmarket in the slightest but I can assume Isho would ask why the gun needed to be gone and, if told the truth, wouldn't want to get involved. I could be wrong. If the idea is that Isho is a bad mamma jamma and crossing him could be dangerous, then you wouldn't bring him evidence that could get him in trouble. Unless it's very easy to sell guns to gang members, who don't care if the gun is clean, but that would have to be done lickity spit. So, perhaps they tried Isho and he said, no way Jose.

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We already saw from texts between Millard and Isho that he had no problems dealing non clean guns. Clean guns are obviously of higher value and are of less risk to carry.


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[Juballee]

Idk, IMO, it's all very simple. DM knew he was " Hot" at this point. He knew police were watching him and during that meeting they most likely made arrangements/a plan, to get that gun to MS via someone who wasn't likely under surveillance by LE. Once MS had the gun, it would then be disposed of to hide All evidence. Both sets of prints were likely on that gun as evidence shows they both handled it. Personally, I believe that gun found its way back to MWJ's peeps . It's also evidence in his case, No?


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We know that DM had heard that AJ had called crime stoppers on the 9th, but he ends the day in a text to MS telling him everything is fine. I belive he didn't feel like he was "Hot" until,the 10th when LE showed up at the hanger. That was when his message about being too hot was sent. On the 9th he had ample time and opportunity to give the gun to MS if he wanted him to have it.

Although I don't belive MS's tale of amnesia in regards to hiding the gun, I doubt MWJ would take it back. Anyone found with it could be facing life in jail as a murderer, who would want that piece? I bet the guy who tried to buy it from MS but didn't have enough money is damn glad he didn't end up with it.

 

[musicaljoke]

... I have issues believing Isho would help, or want the gun back. I don't know the underground gun blackmarket in the slightest but I can assume Isho would ask why the gun needed to be gone and, if told the truth, wouldn't want to get involved. I could be wrong. If the idea is that Isho is a bad mamma jamma and crossing him could be dangerous, then you wouldn't bring him evidence that could get him in trouble. Unless it's very easy to sell guns to gang members, who don't care if the gun is clean, but that would have to be done lickity spit. So, perhaps they tried Isho and he said, no way Jose.

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Your comment, combined with a comment in ABro's blog, and a remark made by a friend of mine who is a retired police chief detective, is fanning the spark of a thought in my mind. Professional, criminal gang members do care if a gun is clean. It's the amateur gastas who don't care, and who behave dangerously.

According to the police detective, guns can be rented or leased from illegal sources, for a fee, plus a deposit which is refunded when the gun is returned. The guns are clean. If the gun is used in a crime, it can't be returned but must be destroyed. I don't know all the details of such a transaction, but you can bet that care is taken so that the gun can't be traced to the supplier.

The comment from ABro's blog is related to this: "[Joseph Michael Horth aka Spiken Mike] ... testified at the prelim that a guy called John Low had given him the AK-47 as collateral for a small loan and that he had tried to destroy it with a hammer. When that failed he hid it in the crawl space under the house where he was living in Mississauga. Police raided the house and found the gun in January 2014." From the article: Crown asks for review of Justice Antonio Di Zio ruling in Matthew Ward-Jackson case http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/matthew-ward-jackson

"Collateral for a small loan?" Does that sound like a deposit?

There are a few questions that linger in my mind. What did MS mean when he said that he'd f'd up? To whom was he referring when he said that he was afraid "they were out to get him", or "they don't don't mess around". I forget his exact wording. Surely he was not afraid of the Bosma family. Why was MS in such a state about getting rid of the gun? Why did he so stubbornly refuse to say where it is? Is it possible that the gun was rented and now, having been used in a crime, had to be paid for and destroyed? When MS needed money so desperately, was it really in order to hire a lawyer?

 

[andreww]

At trial, the pretence of buying a truck was dropped in favour of admitting it was a plan to steal a truck, so the disposable phone was still a logical choice, in my opinion.

The incinerator was something that was bought and set up in a couple of weeks, if I recall correctly.

We don't know what deliberations they had about covering up the crime after the fact, but I feel that if it were a planned murder for that night, that there is no reason why they would have both walked up the the door to both be seen by witnesses, and then leave the Yukon near his house, and then come back for it with a dead body in the truck, to me that is a crazy risk that I can't see someone who likes to plan things making.

But that's just my personal opinion, and I respect yours.

What does it matter that they walked to TBs door? Dead men don't identify mugshots. Did it make a difference that the other two witnesses saw them? Not at all. The only reason these guys are in jail is because IT noticed the Ambition tattoo. That is it. So <modsnip> they did do it and it didn't hurt them at all.

 

[andreww]

Your comment, combined with a comment in ABro's blog, and a remark made by a friend of mine who is a retired police chief detective, is fanning the spark of a thought in my mind. Professional, criminal gang members do care if a gun is clean. It's the amateur gastas who don't care, and who behave dangerously.

According to the police detective, guns can be rented or leased from illegal sources, for a fee, plus a deposit which is refunded when the gun is returned. The guns are clean. If the gun is used in a crime, it can't be returned but must be destroyed. I don't know all the details of such a transaction, but you can bet that care is taken so that the gun can't be traced to the supplier.

The comment from ABro's blog is related to this: "[Joseph Michael Horth aka Spiken Mike] ... testified at the prelim that a guy called John Low had given him the AK-47 as collateral for a small loan and that he had tried to destroy it with a hammer. When that failed he hid it in the crawl space under the house where he was living in Mississauga. Police raided the house and found the gun in January 2014." From the article: Crown asks for review of Justice Antonio Di Zio ruling in Matthew Ward-Jackson case http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/matthew-ward-jackson

"Collateral for a small loan?" Does that sound like a deposit?

There are a few questions that linger in my mind. What did MS mean when he said that he'd f'd up? To whom was he referring when he said that he was afraid "they were out to get him", or "they don't don't mess around". I forget his exact wording. Surely he was not afraid of the Bosma family. Why was MS in such a state about getting rid of the gun? Why did he so stubbornly refuse to say where it is? Is it possible that the gun was rented and now, having been used in a crime, had to be paid for and destroyed? When MS needed money so desperately, was it really in order to hire a lawyer?

Certainly MWJ was a concern. This guy is obviously a real gangster and now two guns that he sold to Millard and Smich have been used to kill at least two people. If the cops have Millard, they'll certainly be on to MWJ pretty quickly. Even if Smich managed not to get arrested, he'd be living in fear of retaliation from MWJ. IMO the drama over the gun was just as much about keeping MWJ out of jail as it was about getting rid of the gun.

Another point being, yes MWJ said the gun was clean, but is he to be believed? If the gun finds its way in to police hands, is the ballistics test going to tie the gun (and MWJ) to yet another killing?

 

[ILoveDateline]

Your comment, combined with a comment in ABro's blog, and a remark made by a friend of mine who is a retired police chief detective, is fanning the spark of a thought in my mind. Professional, criminal gang members do care if a gun is clean. It's the amateur gastas who don't care, and who behave dangerously.

According to the police detective, guns can be rented or leased from illegal sources, for a fee, plus a deposit which is refunded when the gun is returned. The guns are clean. If the gun is used in a crime, it can't be returned but must be destroyed. I don't know all the details of such a transaction, but you can bet that care is taken so that the gun can't be traced to the supplier.

The comment from ABro's blog is related to this: "[Joseph Michael Horth aka Spiken Mike] ... testified at the prelim that a guy called John Low had given him the AK-47 as collateral for a small loan and that he had tried to destroy it with a hammer. When that failed he hid it in the crawl space under the house where he was living in Mississauga. Police raided the house and found the gun in January 2014." From the article: Crown asks for review of Justice Antonio Di Zio ruling in Matthew Ward-Jackson case http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/tag/matthew-ward-jackson

"Collateral for a small loan?" Does that sound like a deposit?

There are a few questions that linger in my mind. What did MS mean when he said that he'd f'd up? To whom was he referring when he said that he was afraid "they were out to get him", or "they don't don't mess around". I forget his exact wording. Surely he was not afraid of the Bosma family. Why was MS in such a state about getting rid of the gun? Why did he so stubbornly refuse to say where it is? Is it possible that the gun was rented and now, having been used in a crime, had to be paid for and destroyed? When MS needed money so desperately, was it really in order to hire a lawyer?

Interesting, thanks.

 

[Juballee]

Sorry, when did the crown ever say he wasn't wearing the satchel?


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In his closing.