Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #17 [06.03.16 to 06.09.16]

[Juballee]

I believe was asked and she said no, she didn't know that MS had a gun. You'd think she'd know, she was with him practically 24/7. Who knows, maybe she's still lying for him.

Not MS's girlfriend, his best friend Brandon Daly. He said MS told him it was his gun in the toolbox. The only one to dispute that was MS himself, and he had reason to lie about that, whereas BD did not. Therefore I personally take his testimony as having far more weight than MS's.

My opinion only.

 

[Juballee]

We already saw from texts between Millard and Isho that he had no problems dealing non clean guns. Clean guns are obviously of higher value and are of less risk to carry.


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Wait, we saw evidence that Isho was selling guns that had previously been used in other murders? How many murderers is he friends with?!? Do all his gangsta friends have to commit a murder to get into his group? Maybe that's why MS killed TB, perhaps it was a gang initiation as some here have postulated previously.

 

[RandomName479]

In his closing.

do you have a link for this? I wasn't able to follow as closely as I would have liked.....but I don't recall this.....thanks

 

[canadiangirl]

What does it matter that they walked to TBs door? Dead men don't identify mugshots. Did it make a difference that the other two witnesses saw them? Not at all. The only reason these guys are in jail is because IT noticed the Ambition tattoo. That is it. So lets not play the "They wouldn't have done this or that" game because they did do it and it didn't hurt them at all.

Why do people keep saying this? I'm not sure that too many murders would casually walk up to someone's door. Unless the were taking everyone out. Not the brightest move. Jmo

 

[Juballee]

What does it matter that they walked to TBs door? Dead men don't identify mugshots. Did it make a difference that the other two witnesses saw them? Not at all. The only reason these guys are in jail is because IT noticed the Ambition tattoo. That is it. So <modsnip> they did do it and it didn't hurt them at all.

It did hurt them though, they have been in jail for 3 years so far because of it.

It matters that they walked up to the door together for a couple of reasons. Although dead men cannot identify people, the witnesses who were not killed can.

It did make a difference that the other two witnesses saw them, because they were able to testify to that in court.

It also matters because it is inconsistent with the scenario that they were there to commit a murder and not get caught. If they had a plan to get a driver in a truck and then shoot him for his keys, why would both need to be seen at the house? Why not leave MS with the Yukon to follow, or to even pretend that he was stranded on the side of the road and pull over to help him. Surely TB would not have found that suspicious because he was naturally the kind of person who would offer help to a stranded motorist, I feel. Any tiny bit of forethought and pre-planning would have come up with a better plan than to both be seen by the intended victim's wife and tenant. If eliminating witnesses was the reason that they didn't fear showing their faces, then logic would follow that they would eliminate every witness who saw their faces. They obviously didn't.

 

[Juballee]

Certainly MWJ was a concern. This guy is obviously a real gangster and now two guns that he sold to Millard and Smich have been used to kill at least two people. If the cops have Millard, they'll certainly be on to MWJ pretty quickly. Even if Smich managed not to get arrested, he'd be living in fear of retaliation from MWJ. IMO the drama over the gun was just as much about keeping MWJ out of jail as it was about getting rid of the gun.

Another point being, yes MWJ said the gun was clean, but is he to be believed? If the gun finds its way in to police hands, is the ballistics test going to tie the gun (and MWJ) to yet another killing?

If you can't trust a gangster with tattoos on his face about the cleanliness of a gun, who can you trust?



Good point though.

 

[redheart]

We already saw from texts between Millard and Isho that he had no problems dealing non clean guns. Clean guns are obviously of higher value and are of less risk to carry.


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No, we didn't see that.

What we saw was DM asking as an afterthought if the gun was clean. He'd already negotiated and made arrangements for price and pickup time.

Feb 9 ?? Millard and Isho negotiate (via text) price of gun. Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 9 ?? Isho texts Millard: "I can get him to bring me it now would u like it foreal?" Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 9 ?? Millard texts Isho: "let's do it. Pick it up tonight?" Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 9 ?? Isho texts Millard: "22 cash plz I'm doing ya a big favour trust. I'm not making a penny." Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 9 ?? Isho texts Millard: "My guys comn from Niagara so plz be on time." Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 9 ?? Isho texts Millard: "if u need lessons tomorrow I'm free and we can go over every piece ok?" Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 10 ?? Millard texts Isho: "btw is it clean or dirty?" Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 10 ?? Isho texts Millard: "clean." Day 37: Falconer testimon

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hb6kEtpLa8cHCVorBuy4yqfHymGvhfHeM6s8QMWGVW8/pubhtml

Maybe Isho does deal with dirty guns, but we certainly don't know that from the evidence.

 

[Variant]

Why do people keep saying this? I'm not sure that too many murders would casually walk up to someone's door. Unless the were taking everyone out. Not the brightest move. Jmo

From Adam Carter's report on Leitch's closing statement:

"Why show your face?

Both Millard's lawyers and Smich's lawyers have raised the same question to the jury: Why would the two accused killers show their faces at Bosma's home if they planned to kill him?
Leitch told the jury that for these two, the fear of being identified was a "non issue" because they "planned to kill the target."

"Dead men don't do photo lineups," Leitch said.

Millard and Smich didn't count on being seen by Bosma's wife, Sharlene, and the couple's downstairs tenant, Wayne De Boer, Leitch said. That's why Smich had his hood up, and was hanging back from the others.

Millard, by contrast, was OK with taking the chance, Leitch said.

"He's overconfident. He thinks he's untouchable."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/bosma-closing-argument-crown-1.3612291

 

[andreww]

do you have a link for this? I wasn't able to follow as closely as I would have liked.....but I don't recall this.....thanks

Neither could I, and why would they even say that?

 

[CJPRINCESS]

I believe was asked and she said no, she didn't know that MS had a gun. You'd think she'd know, she was with him practically 24/7. Who knows, maybe she's still lying for him.

Not sure how MM'S initials disappeared on me but this was in regards to MM.

 

[andreww]

No, we didn't see that.

What we saw was DM asking as an afterthought if the gun was clean. He'd already negotiated and made arrangements for price and pickup time.

Feb 9 ?? Millard and Isho negotiate (via text) price of gun. Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 9 ?? Isho texts Millard: "I can get him to bring me it now would u like it foreal?" Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 9 ?? Millard texts Isho: "let's do it. Pick it up tonight?" Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 9 ?? Isho texts Millard: "22 cash plz I'm doing ya a big favour trust. I'm not making a penny." Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 9 ?? Isho texts Millard: "My guys comn from Niagara so plz be on time." Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 9 ?? Isho texts Millard: "if u need lessons tomorrow I'm free and we can go over every piece ok?" Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 10 ?? Millard texts Isho: "btw is it clean or dirty?" Day 37: Falconer testimony
Feb 10 ?? Isho texts Millard: "clean." Day 37: Falconer testimon

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hb6kEtpLa8cHCVorBuy4yqfHymGvhfHeM6s8QMWGVW8/pubhtml

Maybe Isho does deal with dirty guns, but we certainly don't know that from the evidence.

Thanks for that. After I posted that I started to wonder myself. I've been re-watching Breaking Bad and recently saw an episode where Walt is trying to decide whether to buy a "clean" or "Dirty" gun. I think I got reality and fiction mixed up lol.

 

[teamsundin]

At trial, the pretence of buying a truck was dropped in favour of admitting it was a plan to steal a truck, so the disposable phone was still a logical choice, in my opinion.

The incinerator was something that was bought and set up in a couple of weeks, if I recall correctly.

We don't know what deliberations they had about covering up the crime after the fact, but I feel that if it were a planned murder for that night, that there is no reason why they would have both walked up the the door to both be seen by witnesses, and then leave the Yukon near his house, and then come back for it with a dead body in the truck, to me that is a crazy risk that I can't see someone who likes to plan things making.

But that's just my personal opinion, and I respect yours.

I understand what you mean, ultimately there is risk involved either way. And I think that's why they hid the truck in a side road where it wouldn't be obvious where they came from. And if the timeline when all this happens is reasonably close - I believe all the timestamps would roughly be half an hour apart then it's also not long enough to have raised concerns yet. If they went for an hour, came back then I would agree. But in that short a time frame Tim's wife would not have alerted police or been on the lookout yet so unlikely someone would have been looking for them. They drove around with a dead body regardless and I don't think there was a way around it.

 

[teamsundin]

From Adam Carter's report on Leitch's closing statement:

"Why show your face?

Both Millard's lawyers and Smich's lawyers have raised the same question to the jury: Why would the two accused killers show their faces at Bosma's home if they planned to kill him?
Leitch told the jury that for these two, the fear of being identified was a "non issue" because they "planned to kill the target."

"Dead men don't do photo lineups," Leitch said.

Millard and Smich didn't count on being seen by Bosma's wife, Sharlene, and the couple's downstairs tenant, Wayne De Boer, Leitch said. That's why Smich had his hood up, and was hanging back from the others.

Millard, by contrast, was OK with taking the chance, Leitch said.

"He's overconfident. He thinks he's untouchable."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/bosma-closing-argument-crown-1.3612291

I think the out and open thing was overplayed. How else are you going to do a test drive? Come with a mask? Even if you know how someone's face looks like, without distinct characteristics it will be real hard for police to use that alone to find them. And if not for Millard's tattoos, that's all they would have had to go on, their faces. Those guys were real close to getting away with this. If not the tattoo, if not Arthur Jennings...maybe this case remains unsolved.

 

[Juballee]

From Adam Carter's report on Leitch's closing statement:

"Why show your face?

Both Millard's lawyers and Smich's lawyers have raised the same question to the jury: Why would the two accused killers show their faces at Bosma's home if they planned to kill him?
Leitch told the jury that for these two, the fear of being identified was a "non issue" because they "planned to kill the target."

"Dead men don't do photo lineups," Leitch said.

Millard and Smich didn't count on being seen by Bosma's wife, Sharlene, and the couple's downstairs tenant, Wayne De Boer, Leitch said. That's why Smich had his hood up, and was hanging back from the others.

Millard, by contrast, was OK with taking the chance, Leitch said.

"He's overconfident. He thinks he's untouchable."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/bosma-closing-argument-crown-1.3612291

Thats one of the places where TL losses me because he seems to contradict himself. They didn't care about being seen because they planned to kill the witness, and yet they were seen witnesses by others but didn't kill them, that's a contradiction.

Smitch hid his face from the other witnesses to keep from being seen or identified after the murder, but DM was okay with taking that chance because he was confidant? Did Smitch only put his hood up when he saw that there were other witnesses? Unless he either planned on eliminating those other witness or had no plans to murder a man, I cannot think of any logical reason why DM would feel confident that witnesses couldn't identify him afterwards. To me that is another contradiction of logic.

My opinion only

 

[deugirtni]

I believe was asked and she said no, she didn't know that MS had a gun. You'd think she'd know, she was with him practically 24/7. Who knows, maybe she's still lying for him.

That possibility would sure be easier to believe (that she was lying for him at this point) if she hadn't testified that the two men were all giddy when they picked her up on the morning of the 7th. moo

 

[canadiangirl]

That possibility would sure be easier to believe (that she was lying for him at this point) if she hadn't testified that the two men were all giddy when they picked her up on the morning of the 7th. moo

I personally think the "giddiness" was blown way out of proportion. It's very dramatic. Her first statement said they were happy the mission went well IIRC. And that would make sense if they didn't want to elude to the stuff that just went down and if MS was protecting her. This whole giddy BS I personally don't buy.

 

[Juballee]

Neither could I, and why would they even say that?

The quotes from TL were in a post from a couple of days ago in this thread, I believe. They were also in the reporter tweets of his closing, which was a previous thread. I hope that helps.

I imagine the crown said DM didn't have his satchel that night because TL believed it to be true. He would not have lied in his close, would he?

 

[ABro]

I think the out and open thing was overplayed. How else are you going to do a test drive? Come with a mask? Even if you know how someone's face looks like, without distinct characteristics it will be real hard for police to use that alone to find them. And if not for Millard's tattoos, that's all they would have had to go on, their faces. Those guys were real close to getting away with this. If not the tattoo, if not Arthur Jennings...maybe this case remains unsolved.

Agree with you re identification of the suspects. The descriptions were very generic..

Just a reminder though that Jennings did not go to police until they came to the hangar and he knew the jig was up. He refused to tell Crimestoppers the location of the truck.

The only way I can think of that they could have found Millard and Smich -- without one of their friends and associates talking and tipping -- would have been cell tower dumps based on the burner phone activity. But that would have taken time and search warrants, and much of the evidence would likely have been gone.

So who knows what would have happened if not for Igor.

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Snipped for space.

I agree with everything you said, except, I have issues believing Isho would help, or want the gun back. I don't know the underground gun blackmarket in the slightest but I can assume Isho would ask why the gun needed to be gone and, if told the truth, wouldn't want to get involved. I could be wrong. If the idea is that Isho is a bad mamma jamma and crossing him could be dangerous, then you wouldn't bring him evidence that could get him in trouble. Unless it's very easy to sell guns to gang members, who don't care if the gun is clean, but that would have to be done lickity spit. So, perhaps they tried Isho and he said, no way Jose.

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Oh, yes, I agree, and there are a few possibilities. The only point I was trying to make is that Isho was contacted for some reason, that reason being the gun, not drugs. IMO, I believe that Isho would know how to make a gun clean, or have other possible suggestions for MS/DM, or possibly given back to him or sold back to him. I remember when DM purchased the gun from Isho, he asked if the gun was clean, so there is a possibility that one could purchase a dirty gun from Isho. Regardless, DM and MS wanted MS to contact Isho about something to do with the gun(s).

MOO


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[andreww]

Agree with you re identification of the suspects. The descriptions were very generic..

Just a reminder though that Jennings did not go to police until they came to the hangar and he knew the jig was up. He refused to tell Crimestoppers the location of the truck.

The only way I can think of that they could have found Millard and Smich -- without one of their friends and associates talking and tipping -- would have been cell tower dumps based on the burner phone activity. But that would have taken time and search warrants, and much of the evidence would likely have been gone.

So who knows what would have happened if not for Igor.

If Millard and Smich aren't caught, is Arthur Jennings still alive today?