British student murdered in Perugia, 3 suspects

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Regarding Guede...

I am going to say it again...he was as much "Italian" as a 23 year old person who grows up in the usa from the age of 5 is "american"...

he speaks the language (of course, here someone could grow up in parts of Miami, Texas and speak only Spanish LOL)..

he was educated in Italian schools...and lived with a well to do family who has since disowned him

he CHOSE to be a druggie, small time dealer, small time hanger on dude

I think many americans think that they somehow involved some innocent recent immigrant from Africa...not true at all

also...while Europe is probably not as racially mixed as the USA, and in places like rural Ireland there are probably no Blacks and yes, probably people who have never seen any, Italy is a far different story

Look at a map...Italy has always had dealings with North Africa

Eithiopa ? Italy was the "court" language for government, court, etc...educated and well to do Africans have always learned French and/or Italian since their own countries have so many small tribal languages

It is no "coincidence" that when the Axis was "dividing up" the places they wanted to conquer that Mussollini chose Eithopia and North Africa, and waged the useless and ultimately futile "dessert war" there

Italy has always had ties with Africa...look at a map..

and Africans emigrate there ...legally...some to work, some to do labor type jobs that Italians don't want now (along with Turks)...and there are some middle class and/or well to do African people who CHOOSE to live in Italy if they can afford it or manage it

Patrick was/is a popular musician and Bar owner there

I think it is sort of "resverse" racist to try to pin these crimes on Guede (and Amanda tried to pin them on Patrick)

I think it is far more likely that Amanda and her lover were "friends' and/or drug buddies with Guede and brought him back to the apt for a party....and they tried to include Meredith, were rebuffed, forced her and then it escalated
 
Seriously?? I know LAWYERS who wear green and braid their hair. This is absolutely ridiculous. Oh, she braided her hair-she's GOT to be guilty. OMG! She has on a green coat-GUILTY! :banghead:
I'm not a lawyer, but I know more than one very well. Even I know that a basic rule of court appearance is that you dress conservatively/tastefully to show respect for the court- not "LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!!".
 
I'm not a lawyer, but I know more than one very well. Even I know that a basic rule of court appearance is that you dress conservatively/tastefully to show respect for the court- not "LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!!".

Am I missing the point about her having her hair braided? I personally always thought her braids looked fairly nice and conservative. Occasionally the braid was less than perfect, but other than that I thought it was quite respectful. I mean, a french braid...since when is that flamboyant and in poor taste? Did she sit in court and braid her hair DURING the trial?!? If not, then clearly I'm missing something here about why her braided hair is a negative thing....
 
She and her beaux supposedly had sex the night after the body was discovered.

I can't imagine wanting to have sex after a sight like that had been burned into my memory. I think it would take some time. People do grieve differently but that seems hinky to me. It's almost like they got off on it.
F.Y.I. the guy that killed Daniel Horowitz's wife did the very same thing- immediately went out and had sex with his girlfriend.:sick::sick::sick:
 
Am I missing the point about her having her hair braided? I personally always thought her braids looked fairly nice and conservative. Occasionally the braid was less than perfect, but other than that I thought it was quite respectful. I mean, a french braid...since when is that flamboyant and in poor taste? Did she sit in court and braid her hair DURING the trial?!? If not, then clearly I'm missing something here about why her braided hair is a negative thing....
Take a look at the photos of her in court with the braided hair and the bright green coat. It looks showy- not at all conservative.:twocents:
 
Seriously?? I know LAWYERS who wear green and braid their hair. This is absolutely ridiculous. Oh, she braided her hair-she's GOT to be guilty. OMG! She has on a green coat-GUILTY! :banghead:

I also missed the hair braiding, but the lawyers didn't just walk through a murder scene of someone they knew closely. I think the point is not that those things indicate guilt, but they show an extreme detachment from the horror going on around her, ala Casey Anthony, Scott Peterson, etc. etc.

You can say as much as you want that people grieve differently or that they weren't really that close, but just imagine someone you see every day being murdered in the place where you sleep. Wouldn't you be freaked out? Upset? Scared?

It just doesn't ring true.
 
I believe Guede met Amanda and her roommate due to Guede being the drug dealer for the girls' neighbors.

Wasn't Amanda's lack of cleanliness one of Meredith's complaints about her roommate?
 
I believe Guede met Amanda and her roommate due to Guede being the drug dealer for the girls' neighbors.

Wasn't Amanda's lack of cleanliness one of Meredith's complaints about her roommate?

I thought that as well.
 
You're welcome :) It's just something I've been wondering, but in the end, it really wouldn't have much to do with her falsely naming Patrick, as she herself admitted it was untrue. I'm more curious what led to her doing it ~ something preplanned to get suspicion off herself or the pressure of interrogation and following along with what she thought LE wanted to hear. I'm still inclined to think it was self-preservation on her part. MOO

I don't know about preplanning, but diverting suspicion and trying to please her interrogators by telling them what they want to hear aren't mutually exclusive. On the contrary, it was probably both (whether she is guilty or innocent).

I agree that language difficulties couldn't "make" her falsely accuse PL, but they may have contributed to a breakdown in which she began to invent stories. In the process, of course, she implicated herself by placing herself at the scene of the crime, but in my (admittedly limited) experience, that's how it works. LE gets a suspect to commit to a story, then uses the parts of that story that suit LE's theory and attributes the rest to disception.
 
JMO, but that article focuses on all the things that make her sound innocent. He leaves out all of the evidence that could lead people to believe she's guilty.

But that's what some of us are still looking for.

(ETA please ignore this post. A few posts later, you provided a great list.)
 
...I don't think police should be allowed to ask suspects to speculate or imagine ... or in fact interrogate for so long w/o a lawyer present....

I doubt we'll see a court impose such a restriction, but we should all of us remember not to respond to such questions if we are ever interrogated.

Since U.S. courts have ruled that lying to the police is a crime and prosecution of such does not violate the Fifth Amendment, I'm not sure anyone should talk to the police without a lawyer present. I am sure one shouldn't try to "help" the police by speculating in response to their requests.
 
I don't know about preplanning, but diverting suspicion and trying to please her interrogators by telling them what they want to hear aren't mutually exclusive. On the contrary, it was probably both (whether she is guilty or innocent).

I agree that language difficulties couldn't "make" her falsely accuse PL, but they may have contributed to a breakdown in which she began to invent stories. In the process, of course, she implicated herself by placing herself at the scene of the crime, but in my (admittedly limited) experience, that's how it works. LE gets a suspect to commit to a story, then uses the parts of that story that suit LE's theory and attributes the rest to disception.

And then again Amanda could just be lieing about that like she does everything else.

Weird thing is...a lot of foreigners must get arrested in Italy and yet others dont make the accusations she has against the cops. Just look at the people who took her into court daily..they couldnt be nicer to them and she would laugh at them. She hardly seemed scared of them.
 
But that's what some of us are still looking for.


Not me. Ive seen more than enough to convince me.

In my opinion shes totally psychotic. She has to be. No one normal would shower in a room with blood in it. But maybe that was the cops fault too "shrugs"
 
She and her beaux supposedly had sex the night after the body was discovered.

I can't imagine wanting to have sex after a sight like that had been burned into my memory. I think it would take some time. People do grieve differently but that seems hinky to me. It's almost like they got off on it.

When was the last time you saw an action movie where the hero and heroine did NOT stop to have sex in the middle of the slaughter? Those aren't real people, of course, but the stories are archetypal and are shaped the way they are because they resonate with a lot of people.

We may not like to admit it, but psychological accounts, war journals and world literature are filled with countless examples of people finding relief from death in sex. It isn't necessarily death that turns them on, it may very well be surviving death, as sex can be very life-affirming, even if unconsciously.

Freud was well aware of this: he described the life (eros) and death (thanatos) impulses as in constant opposition, but also in a sort of partnership.

I just finished watching Dateline and there are some things I didn't know before.

1. AK and RS's cellphones were found discarded. RS said he had called 911 before he actually did.

I heard this on 48 Hours. I'm not sure what the discarded cell phones mean. Do you (or anyone else) have a theory?

As for the 911 call, police everywhere jump on such inconsistancies as "proof" of guilt. Yet human beings are fallible in the extreme; when prosecution witnesses make mistakes, the errors are always portrayed as "incidental" to the truth.

2. Computer forensic experts could find no evidence that RS was downloading movies at the time he claimed. AK claimed to be with him watching those movies.

Again, people make mistakes. But that includes cops and prosecutors.

3. When AK first came home she found the door open and proceeded to go in and take a shower without noticing the blood until she got out of the shower and dressed. (that doesn't pass the smell test. You come home find the door open, which is unusual, you don't notice anything wrong. You undress and take a shower. Get dressed and then notice the blood?! (In my best Judge Judy) If it doesn't make sense, it's not true!!

Apparently, Judge Judy was never a college-age youngster. The lifestyles of that age group can be surprisingly casual, particularly when they live together away from parents. The open door may have been unusual, but that doesn't prove AK thought it required immediate action from her. Hindsight, of course, is 20/20.

4. Her multiple stories, which IMO, could be signs of coerced information. I don't think that happened but it does fit how things like that can happen. JMO. Her multiple stories have been mentioned here by others and I don't want to go looking for them. Hopefully someone will post them and you can see how convoluted her stories were.

You and I have discussed the possibility of coercion and I'll join you in declining to rehash.

But I have a question: what is the time period of her multiple stories? Do they all stem from the general time of the initial interrogation? To me, that isn't as damning as switching stories and conveniently remembering and forgetting after one has been prepped for trial. (See Darlie Routier transcript.)

5. Her boss was planning on firing her and rumor was he was going to hire Meredith.

Since the job at the bar wasn't a longtime one and hardly a career-path position, that's a pretty thin motive for murder, don't you think? (Not saying it couldn't be true, just that it isn't an experienced professional facing the destruction of her career.)

6. She tried to clean up the blood.

Do you know how well she tried, how long she spent trying? I'm wondering because not everyone reacts to violence by immediately thinking to preserve the crime scene. Some people react to shock instinctively by trying to remove the source of that shock.

7. If she was railroaded then why did her super rich, Italian, beaux get convicted too?

Um, guilt by association? The conviction of the boyfriend may suggest that more is going on here than anti-American feeling, but there's no particular reason why he can't have been railroaded, too.

8. She made claims of being hit by police officers and yet there is no evidence it ever happened. Only her word for it.

I understand skepticism toward her claim, but how is that evidence of her guilt in the murder? As I wrote above, in the trial snip I saw, she said being hit frightened her, not that it scarred her. As for collaboration, who was going to do that? I assume you don't expect police officers to come out and announce, "Yeah, we slapped her around a bit."

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Isabella knows a lot more about this than I do. Hopefully she'll be able to help.

But that's a lot, Dan. I really appreciate you and Isabella and your efforts to bring the rest of us up to date.
 
Seriously?? I know LAWYERS who wear green and braid their hair. This is absolutely ridiculous. Oh, she braided her hair-she's GOT to be guilty. OMG! She has on a green coat-GUILTY! :banghead:
First of all, it wasn't the fashion police who convicted her! They've got far more on her than what she was wearing.
Regardless of whether or not she actually stabbed Meredith, which I believe she's capable of, she knowingly let both of the guys into the apartment- she supposedly heard Meredith's screams, and who takes a shower in a bathroom full of blood???
My point in regards to her court appearances, were not that- she wore a coat, or even that it was green. The point is that she chose to wear bright colors and fix up her hair as an FU, I don't care/look at me attitude towards the court. Also, how else do you explain her doing cartwheels and the splits in the police station, and going lingerie shopping the day after Meredith was killed???
I believe Foxy Knoxy knew exactly what she was doing and Justice has been served for Meredith!

P.S. we're talking what the Defendant in a Murder Trial was wearing, not lawyers!
 
...(Newser) – A witness in the Amanda Knox murder trial testified that she waved a knife at him outside the house where Meredith Kercher was killed, the AP reports. The Albanian witness, at times mumbling and interrupted by the judge, said he “bumped into a big black trash bag” that turned out to be Knox and boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito. The witness said he “threw olives and a cell phone” at Knox when she brandished the knife.

Thanks so much for the links, Dan.

Could this entire case get any odder?

He "'threw olives and a cell phone'" at Knox when she brandished the knife"?!?!

I repeat: ?!?!
 
I assume cartwheels in America is the same as here. Kinda like a gymnastic movement.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, Isabella.

In American English, "doing cartwheels" indicates the gymnastic movement, but it is also one of the most common ways of saying "acting happy."

I think when we English-speaking readers see that phrase, we always see both meanings to some extent. I'm wondering whether the phrase has a similar double meaning in Italian.

In other words, while the cartwheels were certainly odd, they may or may not indicate that AK was inappropriately joyful after the death of her roommate. Yet the double meaning (in English) makes the action seem doubly damning.

In fact, of course, one need not feel happy to perform a cartwheel. I imagine overworked gymnasts prove as much everyday.
 
There is a witness who testified Amanda threatened him with a knife the day before the murder. That is AMANDA not Guede. Also..a neighbour testified several people ran away from the apartment. Not just one. In addition...a local shop keep er testified that Amanda was waiting for his shop to open early the next morning. She went immediately to the cleaning section and bought cleaning goods. These goods were found in the apartment afterwards.

So sorry but no...it wasnt Guede solo.

Of the evidence you list, only the cleaning supplies strike me as particularly incriminating. We have no evidence that AK went around wielding a knife, but she is said to have suddenly done so on the day before the murder. Possible but very convenient for the prosecution.

Similarly, I find the neighbor's "ear-witness" testimony problematic. CBS explored the building and found it unlikely she could hear what she claimed to hear. I'm not at all convinced anyone but an experience Cherokee scout could distinguish the sound of two from three or more people running. Again, possible but hearing three runaways is very convenient for the prosecution.

On the other hand, the cleaning supplies... In my experience, young women living as AK and the victim did don't do a lot of cleaning. Do you know how AK explained the shopping?
 
Sorry if I wasn't clear, Isabella.

In American English, "doing cartwheels" indicates the gymnastic movement, but it is also one of the most common ways of saying "acting happy."

I think when we English-speaking readers see that phrase, we always see both meanings to some extent. I'm wondering whether the phrase has a similar double meaning in Italian.

In other words, while the cartwheels were certainly odd, they may or may not indicate that AK was inappropriately joyful after the death of her roommate. Yet the double meaning (in English) makes the action seem doubly damning.

In fact, of course, one need not feel happy to perform a cartwheel. I imagine overworked gymnasts prove as much everyday.


It was cartwheels..as in the gymnastic movement. And no you dont have to be happy to do cartwheels but Merediths friends testified they thought Amandas behaviour was odd because while they was shocked and horrified...Amanda stood there laughing and cuddling and kissing her boyfriend.
 
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