British student murdered in Perugia, 3 suspects

[LadyL]

my understanding is they use some kind of dye stain afterwards but I'm with you - I don't know why it would be used in a bathroom

Advances in Fingerprint Technology by Henry C. Lee (google books):

talks about using in motor vehicles & small, enclosed spaces - which are not necessarily airtight

http://books.google.ca/books?id=duUJEp4WbQ8C&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=ester+cyanoacrylate+latent+prints&source=bl&ots=Hh9nWZe2MM&sig=YL4O0wVcu_znMBcxPF-08B-kRvc&hl=en&ei=crsdS5q2B8GplAffwsnyCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CC8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=ester%20cyanoacrylate%20latent%20prints&f=false

also I discovered that some kind of flourescent powder can be used in addition to or instead of the dye stain

 

[Isabella]

raf also admitted to telling the policia a load of b.s.

who knows, they both confuse me, which is why I'm trying to ferret out more details

Lol i think they all told the police a load of B.S.

 

[Isabella]

Advances in Fingerprint Technology by Henry C. Lee (google books):

talks about using in motor vehicles & small, enclosed spaces - which are not necessarily airtight

http://books.google.ca/books?id=duU...e&q=ester cyanoacrylate latent prints&f=false

Ah isnt he meant to be the dodgy one? And not even Italian lol

I heard he interefered with evidence in a case. Fancy that

 

[LadyL]

But her bf has said she didnt stop with him that night..so...im not sure what living 5 mins apart has to do with anything. I am at a loss to understand if she didnt stay with him..why she would go from wherever she supposedly stayed to get him a mop for a spill the n ight before.

we don't know whether she did or did not stay with him - I personally think they stayed the night together, either innocently at his house or not so innocently at hers, cleaning up after a murder

maybe he denied it trying to distance himself from the crime & throw her under the bus?

anything's possible

she stated she went from his place to hers to have her shower & she grabbed the mop & brought it back to his house - I was replying to someone who questioned why Raf wouldn't just borrow a neighbour's mop or whatever

I said I might just take one from my house to my b/f's place, rather than have to knock on a neighbour's door or go to the store

and the point in another post about the maid not leaving a mop there is a good one, perhaps it's possible the maid actually took her mop with her to clean another house?

idk, like I said ... so much speculation, very little evidence

 

[Isabella]

we don't know whether she did or did not stay with him - I personally think they stayed the night together, either innocently at his house or not so innocently at hers, cleaning up after a murder

maybe he denied it trying to distance himself from the crime & throw her under the bus?

anything's possible

she stated she went from his place to hers to have her shower & she grabbed the mop & brought it back to his house - I was replying to someone who questioned why Raf wouldn't just borrow a neighbour's mop or whatever

I said I might just take one from my house to my b/f's place, rather than have to knock on a neighbour's door or go to the store

and the point in another post about the maid not leaving a mop there is a good one, perhaps it's possible the maid actually took her mop with her to clean another house?

idk, like I said ... so much speculation, very little evidence

The thing is..if they was at his house innocently..why lie about what they was doing at the house that night and WHY say he didnt know where she stayed when it was put to him they knew he had been lieing?

 

[jjenny]

we don't know whether she did or did not stay with him - I personally think they stayed the night together, either innocently at his house or not so innocently at hers, cleaning up after a murder

maybe he denied it trying to distance himself from the crime & throw her under the bus?

anything's possible

she stated she went from his place to hers to have her shower & she grabbed the mop & brought it back to his house - I was replying to someone who questioned why Raf wouldn't just borrow a neighbour's mop or whatever

I said I might just take one from my house to my b/f's place, rather than have to knock on a neighbour's door or go to the store

and the point in another post about the maid not leaving a mop there is a good one, perhaps it's possible the maid actually took her mop with her to clean another house?

idk, like I said ... so much speculation, very little evidence

She says in her e-mail the spill was at dinner. Why go for a mop the next morning to wipe a spill at dinner the previous day?

 

[LadyL]

Ah isnt he meant to be the dodgy one? And not even Italian lol

I heard he interefered with evidence in a case. Fancy that

I think he became well-known during the O.J. case (if it's the same person)

I haven't researched anything on him, except I know I was impressed with him years ago.

Not sure what the gossip was about his supposed dodginess, except that a lot of people involved in that case were 'outed' (lookit Fuhrman).

In the interests of full disclosure, I have to admit openly that I have had some rather frightening exposure to how a system can railroad an individual and how the press can be completely biased and how LE can abuse their power and how a prosecutor and even a judge can allow her political motivations to supercede her common sense and how the public can gobble it all up like it's the truth come down from on high and how even the victims in a case can end up manipulated by their supposed advocates, all in the selfish interests of some and not truth & justice, as we would like to believe and how nothing is as simple as it should be and how we like to paint in black & white and how a monster is a monster is a monster because we are uncomfortable with the gray areas in human nature and that travesties of justice do happen and we should all be suspicious of anything that is not physical evidence

ok, phew - I got it out - sorry for the rant :crazy:

 

[Isabella]

I think he became well-known during the O.J. case (if it's the same person)

I haven't researched anything on him, except I know I was impressed with him years ago.

Not sure what the gossip was about his supposed dodginess, except that a lot of people involved in that case were 'outed' (lookit Fuhrman).

In the interests of full disclosure, I have to admit openly that I have had some rather frightening exposure to how a system can railroad an individual and how the press can be completely biased and how LE can abuse their power and how a prosecutor and even a judge can allow her political motivations to supercede her common sense and how the public can gobble it all up like it's the truth come down from on high and how even the victims in a case can end up manipulated by their supposed advocates, all in the selfish interests of some and not truth & justice, as we would like to believe and how nothing is as simple as it should be and how we like to paint in black & white and how a monster is a monster is a monster because we are uncomfortable with the gray areas in human nature and that travesties of justice do happen and we should all be suspicious of anything that is not physical evidence

ok, phew - I got it out - sorry for the rant :crazy:

No...im not talking about the OJ case. I was told by several sources that he was discredited in another case. Like i said how true it is i dont know and to be honest its not important...just that it shows..there can be dodgy people involved in cases in all countries.

 

[Nova]

The idea is so that the person gets a fair trial and arent judged on previous things they may have done or be charged with. And to be honest when i see what has happened in the Casey Anthony case...i think thats way way out of line and people say how did Amanda have a fair trial..well i dont see how Casey can because for the best part of a year nightly the case was splashed on Nancy Grace etc so how is any juror not going to know about whats been on the net or the tv or the papers etc?

I'm not up on the Anthony case, but I think your criticism that pre-trial publicity may influence a jury is absolutely valid. It's a problem for which I don't have a solution. (And to be fair and clear, I don't have intimate experience with the British alternative. I know what it is, but since I'm not there, I don't assume I know the impact.)

Interestingly, one of the charges of AK defenders is that her case was tried too much "in the media." I assume you don't agree and I admit I don't know.

 

[Nova]

I was on a jury a couple of years ago and I can attest to the adherence of judicial guidance. If anyone brought up something we couldn't consider we'd point it out and throw it aside.

The jurors in the OJ case sure did that.

I can't tell if the OJ reference is ironic, but my jury experience confirms yours: jurors tried very hard to work within the guidelines we were given.

 

[Isabella]

I'm not up on the Anthony case, but I think your criticism that pre-trial publicity may influence a jury is absolutely valid. It's a problem for which I don't have a solution. (And to be fair and clear, I don't have intimate experience with the British alternative. I know what it is, but since I'm not there, I don't assume I know the impact.)

Interestingly, one of the charges of AK defenders is that her case was tried too much "in the media." I assume you don't agree and I admit I don't know.

What happened to Amanda media wise couldnt have happened here as such. Saying that...her defenders say that but the reality is most who agree with the verdict went with the evidence and not her lifestyle choices at all.

 

[annmarie62]

...I've always been impressed with the sophisticated "sleuthing" I see on this site, but never so much as in this case- great job, everyone! I began reading this thread some 2+ hours ago w/the intention to only "stay" for 15 mins. or so, then move on, but the links and advanced/intelligent discussions "had me at 'hello'"!!!! I agree with so many posters that Amanda Knox is one seriously disturbed young lady. The e-mail was soooo enlightening. I agree w/whoever said that they wouldn't be able to eat, much less be "starved," after being made aware of Meredith's death (much less taking a huge part in it). Amanda is so narcissistic/egocentric, God WHO CARES if the vending machine food was awful?! Hellooo!!! YOUR ROOMMATE JUST DIED A HORRIBLE, VIOLENT, AND PAINFUL DEATH!! If Amanda were so, so "innocent," wouldn't she (like anyone else w/a normal sense of horror at the situation) be pretty much catatonic, overwhelmed with questions, fear and grief? Instead, she regales her "buddy list" with ridiculous, self-absorbed minuteae. I have to wonder if any of her family members/oldest friends saw hints of her abnormal psychology years ago. Surely SOMEONE in her past wasn't totally surprised at AK's complete and utter lack of empathy and compassion toward Meredith... And for her and Raffaele to be KISSING and DISCUSSING SEX in a lingerie shop just hours after discovering that her roommate was DEAD!! Totally shocking behavior. Psychopath, imo. God, I feel so, so sorry for poor Meredith's family,not just for the obvious reason that she was brutally murdered, but also because AK's every word and gesture seems coolly designed to take 'center stage' as the "star" of this gruesome show.:banghead:

 

[Nova]

HI ...the cleaning supply "reciept" for am found at Rafaels apt is very "telling" for me...after the store clerk claims to see amanda in the cleaning products aisle

Per the link SleuthyMom provides at post #882 (SM credits the link originally to Isabelle), the rumored "receipt" was never offered at trial.

I don't for a moment believe that such a receipt exists and the prosecution simply chose not to produce it in court. I'm satisfied that this "fact" can be discarded as a false rumor.

That doesn't prove the shopkeeper was mistaken, of course, but the testimony isn't quite the same "slam-dunk" without a dated receipt.

The "window' is a huge factor for me....it was broken OUTWARD....a lot of glass on the window sill and on the ground (some 15 feet below)...the house is old...with a very slanted roof and overhanging eave...one would have to be a "spiderman" to climb up there and over the overhang and go in under the window..just can't be done...so why was it broken??

I agree that the broken window is problematic, but the same (excellent, IMO) link says not that the window was broken outward, but that glass from the window was found under a roommate's dishevelled clothing. Since the roommate claims her room was left in a neat condition, the presumption is that rifling of the room by intruders (if any) must have occurred before the breaking of the window. Both scenarios suggest staging, of course; but there is a difference in the accounts.

I have no way of knowing whether your account or hers is correct. Either way, I appreciate the rest of the info you provided.

 

[Tizzle]

Pardon me for interrupting but....

Oh...some other interesting points
>>> the day after the murder night....Amanda is seen at the little grocery store in the cleaning products section early monring
>>> a reciept from that store, dated and timed early am is found at Rafalle's apt
>>snipped<<

>>snipped<<
or maybe even earlier ...as the shopkeeper saw here there early and the reciept in Rafaelle's apt to that store for cleaning supplies is dated early??
How did only a small amount of blood get in the bathroom when Meredith was literally in a "lake of blood">>??? I think Amanda cleaned it

>>snipped A LOT<<
Well we know she claimed to have come back to the apt. at 10:30am. She said she was asleep til just before then, IIRC. We also know that a shopkeep says he's pretty sure it was her who was waiting for him to open up and ran in for cleaning supplies at 7:45am. The receipt for these supplies with a time stamp matching the shopkeeps memory were found in her or her boyfriends possession.
My opinion is that they committed the murder and looked around. They realized there was a lot of evidence and decided to clean it up. AK got the cleaning supplies and they tried to clean it up. However, it was too much for them to do and so she popped into the shower to clean herself up while her boyfriend went home. Then...

The "pink" color is not blood, its luminal. While the picture may be misleading, the jury was shown both the "pre-luminal" and the "post luminal" photos so they knew what was going on. The phots prove there had recently been a great deal of blood; both Merideth's and Amanda's that had been cleaned up. There could have been an "innocent" explaination for this but there was also very strong evidence that Amanda bought "cleaning supplies" at 7:45 that morning.

Can someone please provide a link where it states definitively that cleaning supplies were bought that morning? Because according to this link, which I believe is a pro-prosecution site and has been mentioned on this thread, the bleach receipt was found to be a receipt from a month prior. TIA
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&p=23868
Michael wrote:
COMPREHENSIVE TIMELINE (PRIMARY)*
(LAST EDIT: Michael, Oct 5, 2009 - Removed Nov 2nd 08:30 and 0915 slots for bleach receipts. It is now known that the bleach receipt found in RS' apartment originated over a month beofre the murder)

>>snipped again<<
The discarded cell phones are a mystery. I'm not sure what they mean, it's just another brick of the circumstantial case. I don't think AK ever gave an answer for why were there.

Also worth mentioning, earlier reports indicated that there was heavy phone activity between the AK & RS, then reports say they turned their phones off, now we are hearing something about "discarded phones? So which is it? Seems to me like LE has had just as much trouble keeping their story straight as Amanda has.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xt-message-predicted-students-sex-murder.html

Phone records have already proved vital in the police investigation and it is known that in the hours after the killing there was heavy text and call traffic between Amanda Knox and boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito.

(To me, this article is just another example of the careless reporting that led to A & R being found guilty via the press and their outlandish tales since the text the article was referring to was about a doctor on Grey's Anatomy...JMO, but it was careless to leak this and many other details to the press without thoroughly investigating their relevance, first.)

 

[Tizzle]

These are interesting links about the broken window.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/216903/page/1 Very informative article and from page 2..

The prosecution alleges that a break-in was staged by Knox and Sollecito in Romanelli's room: the window was broken with a large rock and the room was ransacked, but nothing was taken&#8212;even though expensive sunglasses and jewelry were in plain sight. Clothes were pulled from Romanelli's dresser drawers but the glass shards from the broken window were found on top of them, leading police to believe that the window was broken after the ransacking took place, not before.

and.....
http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/archives/172993.asp

Prosecutors Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi have made much of Filomena Romanelli's testimony, in which she describes finding glass on top of her clothes, meaning the window would have broken after the murder--not before. A detective made the same contention. But crime scene photos do not support this contention. And, in any case, Filomena disturbed the crime scene (through no fault over her own) at least three times.

and...
http://clintvanzandt.newsvine.com/_news/2009/11/23/3533889-amanda-knox-guilty-or-innocent
from link...

The prosecution, for its part, argued that the glass from the broken window was on top of items in the room that was already in disarray, i.e., the window was broken after the assault and murder, probably to give the appearance that someone had entered the residence via the broken window.

 

[Isabella]

Pardon me for interrupting but....









Also worth mentioning, earlier reports indicated that there was heavy phone activity between the AK & RS, then reports say they turned their phones off, now we are hearing something about "discarded phones? So which is it? Seems to me like LE has had just as much trouble keeping their story straight as Amanda has.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xt-message-predicted-students-sex-murder.html


(To me, this article is just another example of the careless reporting that led to A & R being found guilty via the press and their outlandish tales since the text the article was referring to was about a doctor on Grey's Anatomy...JMO, but it was careless to leak this and many other details to the press without thoroughly investigating their relevance, first.)

Nope the problem is you have the wrong end of the stick. Meredith had two mobiles ( her own and one her Italian flat mate lent her ) and it was these phones that were found discarded and not Amandas or her boyfriends. These phones were reported to be in some ones garden and ir was when returning the phones to Meredith that she was found.

 

[jjenny]

Pardon me for interrupting but....






Can someone please provide a link where it states definitively that cleaning supplies were bought that morning? Because according to this link, which I believe is a pro-prosecution site and has been mentioned on this thread, the bleach receipt was found to be a receipt from a month prior. TIA
http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&p=23868
Michael wrote:
COMPREHENSIVE TIMELINE (PRIMARY)*
(LAST EDIT: Michael, Oct 5, 2009 - Removed Nov 2nd 08:30 and 0915 slots for bleach receipts. It is now known that the bleach receipt found in RS' apartment originated over a month beofre the murder)



Also worth mentioning, earlier reports indicated that there was heavy phone activity between the AK & RS, then reports say they turned their phones off, now we are hearing something about "discarded phones? So which is it? Seems to me like LE has had just as much trouble keeping their story straight as Amanda has.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xt-message-predicted-students-sex-murder.html


(To me, this article is just another example of the careless reporting that led to A & R being found guilty via the press and their outlandish tales since the text the article was referring to was about a doctor on Grey's Anatomy...JMO, but it was careless to leak this and many other details to the press without thoroughly investigating their relevance, first.)

I think the poster refers to the two discarded call phones found in the morning, one of which belonged to Meredith, the ones postal police brought over.

 

[Brwnigirl]

The problem we have in this country is that people call the paps or have there agents to do it..and arrange for them to be at a certain place then when they arrive complain there being stalked etc. Likewise with Diana there were reports the papers would just happen to know where she was before she would go out. Whether true or not i dont know. As for her death..i dont know thats still a big talking point over here but she should have been wearing a seatbelt in any case.

Yes tabloids are popular here but ...there not like the Enquirer or Globe are there and for the most part i dont think our paparazzi are as bad as yours. I know several times ive been following stories on big events on TMZ and been shocked at some scenes they have shown because to me they was way to intrusive.

I beg to differ Isabella. In my opinion, some of the rags in the UK are comparable to some in the US and just as bad. Paparazzi in England are well known to stalk celebrities, politicians and the Royals including wiretapping them.
Princess Diana was stalked..day and night.

 

[Tizzle]

Regardless of the meaning of "discarded phones"...what's up with the earlier reports of numerous texts to later reports of their phones being turned off completely? WHICH is it?

 

[SleuthyGal]

I wish there were a place where EACH POINT of evidence was available and discussed. I understand there are lots of opinions about Italy, the Italian system, feelings, etc. However, I just want to dissect each piece of evidence and see what there really is that points to AK and/or RS at the end. I have snippets of evidence info but nothing that is officially listed.

I would like to separate out the behavior of the defendants and first look at the physical evidence because if the physical evidence doesn't clearly point to AK and/or RS as being involved then in my mind it doesn't matter if they acted correctly or not. There needs to be forensic evidence that is clear and convincing.

I've heard about the knife found in Sollecito's apt. Some say it was cleaned by bleach. Is that a fact? Was it tested for bleach? If yes, then how did ANY DNA survive on that knife?

I want to separate fact from fiction and from inferences and from rumor. I want to know if these 2 were involved. Without looking at all the evidence and keeping out rumors and feelings and opinions, we won't really know.

So....is there any place (if not here on this forum) where the evidence that the prosecution presented, item by item, exists?