British student murdered in Perugia, 3 suspects

[Brwnigirl]

I personally dont think people have a right to criticise how interviews are done in another country. I personally think the way interviews are done in America..or at least in some states totally sucks and especially the way statements to the police end up on Nancy Grace. No wonder people think its wrong that other countries actually believe more in privacy.

But regardless..if your in another country you abide by there laws and infact there is a famous saying

"When in Rome do as the Romans do".

So if a woman goes to a police station and says "I was raped" and after the police interview she is then jailed or worse because she is considered the guilty party we cannot criticize that, because we should respect the ways of the country?
I know that is extreme but my problem with accepting practices carte blanche is that it is women that are treated as second class citizens in other parts of the world. Not saying that happened here, just making a point.

The saying "When in Rome do as Romans do" was not referring to legal procedures in foreign countries.
I don't care if someone is from Timbucktoo, you deserve to be treated with fairness whether you are in Timbucktoo or Italy or anywhere else.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Here are a couple examples of what gets all twisted around.

1. The police see that Patrick Lumumba & AK texted each other and because AK texted, "Okay see you later" when told she didn't have to come to work, they think that means she will see him later...like at the house...to commit murder. So they grill her over and over and over. "Why are you protecting him?" "Admit that he was there!" "If you were to IMAGINE what might have happened, what in your imagination do you think could have happened during such a crime?" So it's not that AK thought she'd throw P.L. under the bus...the polizia TOLD HER he must be involved then had her spin a story in her imagination of what might have happened after 14 hrs of interrogation. So she used his name because they told her he was there! Now it becomes a 'fact' where AK has 'confessed and fingered P.L.' welll....not really, but that's how they spun it. She recanted that statement. But here the rest of the world is repeating this story without any of the context and as if this edited version is the gospel truth. I want the truth exactly as it went down!

2. AK was said to be "doing splits and cartwheels" in the police station. But WHY? WHY was she doing this? I heard that the police saw her stretching her back out after sitting for hours waiting for R.S. to be released after questioning. Supposedly one of the polizia asked her if she was a gymnast and/or if she could do a cartwheel and she said yes, she could. Then she did one to show she could. Well if that's how it really went down then she wasn't "turning cartwheels" the way the media portrays it, as if she was in a gleeful/joking mood. Sure it was stupid to do it, but if she was asked by the police to do it or asked if she *could* do it, then she was answering them back by demonstrating. Stupid? Absolutely, yes. Proof of her being a murderer or a cold-blooded killer? Nope!

This is why we need to get the entire truth out of exactly how each of these things went down. I'm not saying she's innocent (I surely don't know), but what I am saying is there is more rumor being spun than cold/hard facts. If I'm going to respect this verdict then I need to learn about each facet of the evidence and of the REAL story behind each of these 'tales' told. I want the entire context! And you all should want that too!

I want the scientific DNA stuff, I want each piece of evidence in a list, I want to know the story behind each behavior that the prosecution points to as hinky or as some proof of her guilt. I want to see for myself what the real deal is! Right now all I see are rumors flying to and fro. Not good enough!

 

[Brwnigirl]

it has also been written that Raf had a cleaning lady who could've left that receipt at his place

the shop owner's assistant (who was actually at the register) also supposedly denied ever seeing Amanda in the store

so we have a bunch of speculation as to who was in the store and a shop owner who reported his sighting a year later b/c a reporter urged him to

my point is, is that it is all speculation and not conclusive evidence


the blog is written by an Italian lawyer who has actually been in the courtroom seeing the evidence, unlike us, and is very credible IMO as I've seen him attack the system and the sensationalism and the evidence and both sides and dispel myths & unsubstantiated rumours

IMO, the hysteria in this case does not create an atmosphere where fairness & justice can prevail

Thank you for these snippets you have provided. I am going to check out that blog too.

 

[Steely Dan]

absolutely not - none of that necessarily makes sense to me, except to say that they did live only 5 min. from each other & I might grab a mop from home to take back to my b/f, esp. if I was at home anyway taking a shower, rather than go to a strangers house or a store

on the other hand, I don't know why a mop would be necessary the next day, unless he had some kind of flooring that it would leave a water-mark on?

yeah, I do find it strange but that's as far as I'm willing to go in my judgment of it; I don't think strange necessarily = guilty

If he had some type of flooring they'd need to get the water off pronto or the glue could start to peel. At the very least I have yet to come into contact with someone who doesn't clean up a spill right away. Her words were that there was a lot of water. It bothers me quite a bit.

That is one thing i didnt get. Didnt she even try and open the door?

Also one of the articles linked on here today reminded me of something else. She said she didnt go in there cos her bf pulled her back..and they didnt go in before the cops got there and yet she told people the description of Merediths body. How if she hadnt seen it?

I don't find that so hard to believe. She was probably told by then. JMO

Nope the problem is you have the wrong end of the stick. Meredith had two mobiles ( her own and one her Italian flat mate lent her ) and it was these phones that were found discarded and not Amandas or her boyfriends. These phones were reported to be in some ones garden and ir was when returning the phones to Meredith that she was found.

My bad. I thought they were hers and his. Makes a lot more sense now. Thanks.

 

[Brwnigirl]

Because I am under the impression that the English paparazzi is as equal to or even worse than it is in the U.S. I could be wrong about my impression of course but it stems from the time of Princess Diana's death (I lived in Germany at the time) and all the press that followed for years. After that, English men would be on an American talk show, explaining how the reporters misrepresent stuff and hound the Royal Family similar to how our press hounds famous people. imo It's gotten worse in both countries since the death of Lady Di. She died while trying to escape the cameras in France.

We have mainstream papers in the U.S. and what we call "rags". Rags do print all kinds of garbage. I've probably purchased only two in my life years ago when I was much younger. A lot of people must buy them though because they are in business. The NE has gained some credibility over the past few years for uncovering stories that turn out to be true but half the stuff is still b.s. imo and why do they want/need to do this? Anyway, I was under the impression that tabloids were popular in England.

You're absolutely right WBG:

When I wanted the lowdown on Tiger I went online to get the UK tabloid - "News of the World" to read the interview one of his mistresses gave -pure dirt. lol

 

[Steely Dan]

Here are a couple examples of what gets all twisted around.

1. The police see that Patrick Lumumba & AK texted each other and because AK texted, "Okay see you later" when told she didn't have to come to work, they think that means she will see him later...like at the house...to commit murder. So they grill her over and over and over. "Why are you protecting him?" "Admit that he was there!" "If you were to IMAGINE what might have happened, what in your imagination do you think could have happened during such a crime?" So it's not that AK thought she'd throw P.L. under the bus...the polizia TOLD HER he must be involved then had her spin a story in her imagination of what might have happened after 14 hrs of interrogation. So she used his name because they told her he was there! Now it becomes a 'fact' where AK has 'confessed and fingered P.L.' welll....not really, but that's how they spun it. She recanted that statement. But here the rest of the world is repeating this story without any of the context and as if this edited version is the gospel truth. I want the truth exactly as it went down!

2. AK was said to be "doing splits and cartwheels" in the police station. But WHY? WHY was she doing this? I heard that the police saw her stretching her back out after sitting for hours waiting for R.S. to be released after questioning. Supposedly one of the polizia asked her if she was a gymnast and/or if she could do a cartwheel and she said yes, she could. Then she did one to show she could. Well if that's how it really went down then she wasn't "turning cartwheels" the way the media portrays it, as if she was in a gleeful/joking mood. Sure it was stupid to do it, but if she was asked by the police to do it or asked if she *could* do it, then she was answering them back by demonstrating. Stupid? Absolutely, yes. Proof of her being a murderer or a cold-blooded killer? Nope!

This is why we need to get the entire truth out of exactly how each of these things went down. I'm not saying she's innocent (I surely don't know), but what I am saying is there is more rumor being spun than cold/hard facts. If I'm going to respect this verdict then I need to learn about each facet of the evidence and of the REAL story behind each of these 'tales' told. I want the entire context! And you all should want that too!

I want the scientific DNA stuff, I want each piece of evidence in a list, I want to know the story behind each behavior that the prosecution points to as hinky or as some proof of her guilt. I want to see for myself what the real deal is! Right now all I see are rumors flying to and fro. Not good enough!

That's the main problem with this case. The reporting of it. Since the vast majority of us don't speak Italian and weren't at the trial news reports are all we have.

This is why I defer to the British press more. They have less of an axe to grind. They are looking for justice. I believe that if they thought she didn't do it they would have defended her. They weren't reporting, IMO, about her just because they were in cahoots with the Italian justice system.

 

[Steely Dan]

You're absolutely right WBG:

When I wanted the lowdown on Tiger I went online to get the UK tabloid - "News of the World" to read the interview one of his mistresses gave -pure dirt. lol

We have the NYPost and Daily News here. They are not all like that in England, I would believe. Isabella may be able to name the credible ones.

 

[SleuthyGal]

This is why I defer to the British press more. They have less of an axe to grind. They are looking for justice. I believe that if they thought she didn't do it they would have defended her. They weren't reporting, IMO, about her just because they were in cahoots with the Italian justice system.

If only that were true! I don't trust media/newspaper reports. I want to see a factual list of the evidence, the tests run on each, the results, and how each piece of evidence was handled! For instance, seeing the video of the Polizia passing around the bra clasp, 6 weeks after the crime, when they finally went back to collect it, there is NO WAY that piece of evidence can or should be considered valid. NO WAY. Right there on video is evidence of possible contamination. And that's just what we do see.

If your life were on the line would YOU feel good about how each piece of evidence was handled? I know I'd want to make sure there was no contamination and I'd darn well show where there could be an issue. And from what I've seen in this case there *are* some issues with some of the evidence.

And it's not about belief and opinion...it really is (or should be) what you can PROVE! I can BELIEVE that AK did the crime but if the evidence doesn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, then she should be "not guilty!" Yes, even if it goes against my 'beliefs.' THAT is the only way a trial can be fair.

 

[jjenny]

I wish there were a place where EACH POINT of evidence was available and discussed. I understand there are lots of opinions about Italy, the Italian system, feelings, etc. However, I just want to dissect each piece of evidence and see what there really is that points to AK and/or RS at the end. I have snippets of evidence info but nothing that is officially listed.

I would like to separate out the behavior of the defendants and first look at the physical evidence because if the physical evidence doesn't clearly point to AK and/or RS as being involved then in my mind it doesn't matter if they acted correctly or not. There needs to be forensic evidence that is clear and convincing.

I've heard about the knife found in Sollecito's apt. Some say it was cleaned by bleach. Is that a fact? Was it tested for bleach? If yes, then how did ANY DNA survive on that knife?

I want to separate fact from fiction and from inferences and from rumor. I want to know if these 2 were involved. Without looking at all the evidence and keeping out rumors and feelings and opinions, we won't really know.

So....is there any place (if not here on this forum) where the evidence that the prosecution presented, item by item, exists?

What physical evidence was there against Scott Peterson? There is not always clear forensic evidence to show that someone did what that someone is accused of.
Scott Peterson is sitting on death row.
You can say that behavior of the defendant doesn't have anything to do with anything, but that just isn't so.

 

[LogicalMinds]

I actually think that since Meredith was English that their papers do have an "axe to grind"

BUT....I find that some of the American media is spouting off, putting out jingoistic dribble

This is ITALY....not some Arab country with Islamic crazy laws.....not some "banana republic"

The Italians gave a 25 year sentence to her Italian lover....son of a promenant wealthy family....and brother of an Italian policewoman

The "time" that both of them got was less than they would have gotten in the USA, and they have a chance to shorten their sentences.....plus two appeals

I think it is really insulting for Americans to act this way.....our state department should back off and back off and respect the Italian system IMHO

Turn the situation around...imagine it was Amanda murdered and that her roomie was the suspect.....oh my we would hear lots of peopple wanting Italy to change their laws and bring back the death penalty

 

[LogicalMinds]

Regardless of the meaning of "discarded phones"...what's up with the earlier reports of numerous texts to later reports of their phones being turned off completely? WHICH is it?

The phones were both in Meredith's possession...stolen from her...

and thrown away in a neighbor's yard...


one was her own British phone...one a phone lent to her by one of her Italian roommates

The elderly neighbor saw the phones and called the "postal police"....who brought them to the house at 12:30 PM ....they were apparently able to "trace" the italian phone to that address......and there they saw Amanda and Rafaelle standing around outside....and so with went from there

the fact is that Amanda never called the police

 

[SleuthyGal]

What physical evidence was there against Scott Peterson? There is not always clear forensic evidence to show that someone did what that someone is accused of.
Scott Peterson is sitting on death row.
You can say that behavior of the defendant doesn't have anything to do with anything, but that just isn't so.

Laci's hair was found in the pliers that was in the boat. Scott placed himself in the bay, on the day she went missing, not realizing her body would wash ashore 4 months later. You can't compare these 2 cases as they are very different.

I'm saying we don't know all the context behind AK's behavior. We are hearing selective bits and rumors and what is reported by the media. We don't have access to the trial transcripts, the forensic reports, etc. We do have access to all those documents in U.S. cases. To evaluate a defendant properly, wouldn't it be necessary to know all the facts? WE armchair sleuthers don't have all the facts and that is a problem.

 

[LogicalMinds]

What physical evidence was there against Scott Peterson? There is not always clear forensic evidence to show that someone did what that someone is accused of.
Scott Peterson is sitting on death row.
You can say that behavior of the defendant doesn't have anything to do with anything, but that just isn't so.

Excellent point.....and yes, I think Scott is guilty too

 

[claudicici]

...I also wonder if americans would doubt the italian system so much if Amanda Knox was a black american male...I doubt it.
...I also think if the same thing would have happened in the states and Amanda's victim would have been a pretty american girl the same people that are speaking out against the italian justice system now would put Amanda on the same level as casey anthony...they would want her to "fry"...

 

[jjenny]

Laci's hair was found in the pliers that was in the boat. Scott placed himself in the bay, on the day she went missing, not realizing her body would wash ashore 4 months later. You can't compare these 2 cases as they are very different.

I'm saying we don't know all the context behind AK's behavior. We are hearing selective bits and rumors and what is reported by the media. We don't have access to the trial transcripts, the forensic reports, etc. We do have access to all those documents in U.S. cases. To evaluate a defendant properly, wouldn't it be necessary to know all the facts? WE armchair sleuthers don't have all the facts and that is a problem.

Have you ever heard of hair transfer? Hair isn't really a "clear forensic evidence," is it?
I am not sure why would you be convinced by hair and not by DNA evidence prosecution has presented in the Knox case? And the prosecution did present DNA evidence even though defense argued it is not convincing. Like the dead girl's DNA prosecution says was on the knife. I fail to see why hair would be more convincing to you.

 

[Steely Dan]

If only that were true! I don't trust media/newspaper reports. I want to see a factual list of the evidence, the tests run on each, the results, and how each piece of evidence was handled! For instance, seeing the video of the Polizia passing around the bra clasp, 6 weeks after the crime, when they finally went back to collect it, there is NO WAY that piece of evidence can or should be considered valid. NO WAY. Right there on video is evidence of possible contamination. And that's just what we do see.

If your life were on the line would YOU feel good about how each piece of evidence was handled? I know I'd want to make sure there was no contamination and I'd darn well show where there could be an issue. And from what I've seen in this case there *are* some issues with some of the evidence.

And it's not about belief and opinion...it really is (or should be) what you can PROVE! I can BELIEVE that AK did the crime but if the evidence doesn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, then she should be "not guilty!" Yes, even if it goes against my 'beliefs.' THAT is the only way a trial can be fair.

That's gonna be difficult to do unless you go to Italy and get permission from the Polizi to peruse the evidence. 99.9% chance of that not happening. JMO

The only way to get information is through the sifting newspapers and other news outlets provide.

I actually think that since Meredith was English that their papers do have an "axe to grind"

BUT....I find that some of the American media is spouting off, putting out jingoistic dribble

This is ITALY....not some Arab country with Islamic crazy laws.....not some "banana republic"

The Italians gave a 25 year sentence to her Italian lover....son of a promenant wealthy family....and brother of an Italian policewoman

The "time" that both of them got was less than they would have gotten in the USA, and they have a chance to shorten their sentences.....plus two appeals

I think it is really insulting for Americans to act this way.....our state department should back off and back off and respect the Italian system IMHO

Turn the situation around...imagine it was Amanda murdered and that her roomie was the suspect.....oh my we would hear lots of peopple wanting Italy to change their laws and bring back the death penalty

I believe the British really only care about who killed her. If they thought AK didn't do it they'd want her found not guilty so the Italians would look other places or provide evidence against someone else themselves. They, IMO, are looking for justice for Meredith.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Have you ever heard of hair transfer? Hair isn't really a "clear forensic evidence," is it?
I am not sure why would you be convinced by hair and not by DNA evidence prosecution has presented in the Knox case? And the prosecution did present DNA evidence even though defense argued it is not convincing. Like the dead girl's DNA prosecution says was on the knife. I fail to see why hair would be more convincing to you.

I'm not going to argue the merits of the Peterson case. It's a completely different case with very different evidence.

The point I'm making is that I don't KNOW if the DNA evidence is valid or not. Some of it probably is, but I don't trust the bra clasp since I know it was left for 6 weeks and passed around. So that one I can discard. As for the knife, which DNA and other tests were run? Were they repeated? If no, why not? Was bleach confirmed to have been used on the knife? I don't have the info and that's what I'm asking for...the info!

The discarded phones that were MK's: were they tested for fingerprints? What were the results? Was there any DNA on the phones? I have no info on this.

I 'heard' there was a combined spot of MK's blood + AK's DNA found in the roommate's room--the one with the broken window. Is this true? Rumor? Again, I don't know.

This is why I'd like to see a comprehensive list of each item of evidence, rather than the bits and pieces that are mentioned in the news/media. I feel like I'm only seeing a few puzzle pieces and I'm craving the whole picture so I can decide for myself.

 

[Steely Dan]

What physical evidence was there against Scott Peterson? There is not always clear forensic evidence to show that someone did what that someone is accused of.
Scott Peterson is sitting on death row.
You can say that behavior of the defendant doesn't have anything to do with anything, but that just isn't so.

Everyday trials are won on only circumstantial evidence. Forensics is much better to have but circumstantial evidence is very powerful.

...I also wonder if americans would doubt the italian system so much if Amanda Knox was a black american male...I doubt it.
...I also think if the same thing would have happened in the states and Amanda's victim would have been a pretty american girl the same people that are speaking out against the italian justice system now would put Amanda on the same level as casey anthony...they would want her to "fry"...

:clap:

 

[LogicalMinds]

I'm saying we don't know all the context behind AK's behavior. We are hearing selective bits and rumors and what is reported by the media. We don't have access to the trial transcripts, the forensic reports, etc. We do have access to all those documents in U.S. cases. To evaluate a defendant properly, wouldn't it be necessary to know all the facts? WE armchair sleuthers don't have all the facts and that is a problem.

I am sure the transcripts are in Italian <grin>

I don't know what their system is......they may not be set up to satisfy "armchair sleuths"

Just because we have "access to all those documents in US cases" doesn't mean zip there.....they may or may not allow access


and if they don't, so what?? that is THEIR system, it is their country....

I am sure they don't approve of the death penatly that we still have here

I bet the idea of televised trials shocks them....

they are probably amazed that we let a bunch of average Americans form a jury ...with no Judges on the panel to guide them

Some European countries like France don't even have juries....they use a panel of 3 judges


Different countries have different laws....one DUI in some Scandanavian countries results in a year in prison....and they can lose their license for life

when you travel outside the USA you are subject to the laws of whatever country you are in


If you go to Barbados, don't wear "camoflauge" printed clothing...it is illegal there....they can and will arrest you, even if you are a tourist or just off a cruise ship <grin>

 

[darnudes]

Good sites for research on this case,

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

http://perugiamurderfile.org/index.php

http://missrepresented.net/blog/

There is a lot there to keep you busy.