Burlap and Forensics

[curiosityscat]

Please take a look at the specs of material found at an unsolved homicide in BC and posted by Dotr in post #2. Could this material be burlap?
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ey-Serial-Killer-of-prostitutes1995-Vancouver

Just my humble opinion (& I am certainly not a materials or fabric industry expert); however, burlap is a woven fabric consisting of interwoven threads alone. With the weight of the burlap based upon the size of the interconnected threads, and/or the size of the holes within the weaving.

Whereas, the yellowish material specks shown in those photos do NOT strike me as at all being burlap.

THREE THEORETICAL POSSIBILITIES:

ONE, it could be a plastic of some sort, that has the impression of burlap pressed into it from the long term contact between the two materials (plastic pressed against a burlap fabric, causing the plastic to pick up the weave pattern impression).

TWO, and this one struck me as I looked more closely at the photos. A type of Safety (potentially reflective) Fabric. Often, Safety/Outdoor fabrics consist of a flexible plastic, that has thin woven threads pressed within the plastic itself. Giving the plastic a type of internal structure, yet allowing the light plastic to remain flexible, and sewable like a fabric, therefore, as a fabric for making clothing, outdoor gear, etc., the resulting item would have a degree of waterproofing to it, while the manufacturer doesn't incur the higher cost of other types of weather or waterproofing options (like regular clothing fabric with special chemical coatings, or using more expensive water/weather proof fabrics like gortex, etc.), making safety, water "resistant" or "proof" plastic threaded fabric a low cost option.
To my own eyes, that is what the 'impression' or specks look to be, either the impression of safety water resistant or proof fabric (OR) an aged/weathered & therefore BRITTLE piece of that type of safety/outdoor plastic fabric.

THIRD, A type of low cost plastic fabric (with?) and/or without the internal threading can also be found as bags for food stuff, such as a rice bag, or a potatoes, or vegetable sack. The term for it is polypropylene...and I believe Option 2 & This Option 3, can both also be used to make outdoor gear like tents, but also tarps! (Many people will be familiar with blue tarps to cover furniture when moving, etc.), Which are cheap and available at any hardware store, and also gets brittle with age & exposure to the elements.

Could not post the image examples but do a google search for:
1) BURLAP FABRIC IMAGE
2) SAFETY FABRIC IMAGE (yellow or orange)+reflective and you should see what I mean (items like a 'safety vest')
3) POLYPROPYLENE (PLASTIC) WEAVE EXAMPLE IMAGES + food industry

===> MY GUESS? Option 3, as a tarp would make sense; or Option 2, as safety/outdoor gear would also make logical sense.

The TRUTH WILL OUT!, and There will be a Reckoning, in this Life or the Next!

 

[marble]

Not sure if this is the correct forum thread to put this in but here it is: Has LISK Recommenced His Killing Again?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1283293561759927/permalink/1426269474129001/

I believe this is a hoax . The sundaypost.org where this story originated does not appear to be a legit site but puts out "news" that is unverifiable and area papers have no mention of this.

 

[WesternArtist]

I believe this is a hoax . The sundaypost.org where this story originated does not appear to be a legit site but puts out "news" that is unverifiable and area papers have no mention of this.

I agree. I noticed that the tweet screenshot from
Nassau County PD in the article isn't on the Nassau County PD's official twitter.

 

[curiosityscat]

THE ASSOCIATED LINK POST, and associated body that was found on Jones Beach, was determined after a few days, to be UNRELATED to the LISK case, and unfortunately, one of domestic abuse, that culminated in her murder. I submitted to the Admin/Mod the associated posts to be removed, including the original posting of the FB link that began this issue...fyi., and my apologies for the confusion. I did check the post, and left it when I found mention of similar bia google from legtitimate media sites, although they varied slightly...a few days later, after I learned they determined the body in the suitcase at Jones Beach was unrelated, is when/why, I requested removal.

 

[curiosityscat]

Not a complete hoax, there was a body, in a suitcase discovered at/off Jones Beach. (which is why I initially left it), but not completely accurate (they twisted & added some details), and a it later it was determined to be unrelated, (it turned out to be a woman killed by her long term boyfriend and said killer was/is in LE custody), which is why I requested the link(s) removal.

 

[marble]

No worries, curiousitycat- I didn't realize it was a hoax either at first

 

[Patience]

I have been researching textiles in Ancient times and the uses of the jute plant (which burlap is made out of) in burials very interesting stuff here. Lots of it.
. http://nyp-corp.com/blog/plant-fibers-for-natural-burial/

In a green burial process, a body is not prepared with embalming fluids or other chemicals and can completely decompose and recycle naturally. The body is put in a biodegradable coffin or shroud with no concrete burial vault. These coffins and shrouds can be made from 100 percent jute mixed with natural starch and then compressed to make a strong, easily biodegradable board that resembles wood. They are suitable for cremation and burial for the eco-friendly consumer concerned about the environment.

This too.
[h=3]Plant Fibers Like Jute, Flax and Hemp in Medical Science[/h]

---

Tuesday, March 14th, 2017
Posted in All Natural, Jute, Plant Fiber | No Comments »
Plant-based fibers such as flax, jute, and hemp are being used to engineer medical use bio-composites. The National Institutes of Health Consensus Development Conference defines biomaterials as a natural or manufactured material that can be used for any interval of time to treat, enhance or replace a tissue, organ, or function of the body. They are used in implants and medical devices and must be compatible to interact with biological systems without rejection. As complicated as it sounds, humans have been doing this throughout history.
(more&#8230

 

[Bannfspring]

The use of Burlap material is camouflage in the brown dense wood line. I used these Bags in the Military for a Ghillie Suit for Infantry forward observation tactics. It is easy that once the LISK placed the remains inside that they would be camo'd out of eye site.

 

[deedee21]

Parabon should be the next step used in identifying the victims. Especially Peaches. We have no idea what she looks like. Parabon can change that. It can produce an image of what she looks like using her DNA.
The technology can also produce an imagine of what both parents look like by using the DNA of a child.

 

[SageRhiannon]

Parabon should be the next step used in identifying the victims. Especially Peaches. We have no idea what she looks like. Parabon can change that. It can produce an image of what she looks like using her DNA.
The technology can also produce an imagine of what both parents look like by using the DNA of a child.

It would be great if they put some resources toward this. Sadly, I don’t think they will considering they haven’t haven’t done skull/face reconstructions or even released identifying factors such as Jane Doe 6’s tattoo or Asian Male’s clothing. I believe they should be putting more resources into identifying the unidentified, as that could break this case open IMO.

 

[Canaille]

Ok, I’ve loosely followed this case and would like to know...

Are there any photos of any burlap bags used in this case? Does any one know if these were plain bags without any kind of business name or logo on them. Or could these be plain bags made for his purpose. Thanks in advance

 

[coldcaser]

I have to go through the entirety of this thread but I wanted to mention this in case it hasn’t been discussed before:

I apologize if this sounds impolite but I don’t understand why there’s such a mystery regarding the use of burlap. Burlap isn’t hard to come by and yes, it might give us clues as to the killer’s profession, but it isn’t a special or unique material.

That being said, I think it was used for purely practical reasons. When it comes to hiding a body almost in plain sight (yes they were obscured by the brush but they were still close to OP), you need to ideally cover it in something that closely resembles the surrounding scenery. The brush on OP is shades of brown during fall, winter, and part of spring. The rest of the time it’s shades of green and of course still a lot of brown. So burlap was an ideal choice being that it’s brown and looks “earthy” and isn’t a material you’d question too much if you saw it out there.

The other reason I believe burlap was used is more graphic and gruesome. Burlap has hundreds and hundreds of holes in its fabric which allows for aeration. Whether there’s a plant wrapped in it or a body, there will be ample aeration due to the weave of the fabric. Burlap both allowed the bodies to be more or less hidden in plain sight, but also allowed them to decompose more quickly due to the aeration.

If he was smart and this was his angle with burlap, he’d know that 1. it blends in with the environment, 2. that it allows aeration so decomposition is accelerated which means 3. that if and when the bodies were found (which they obviously were), the accelerated decomposition due to the use of burlap would make finding evidence a lot more difficult.

 

[dotr]

I have to go through the entirety of this thread but I wanted to mention this in case it hasn’t been discussed before:

I apologize if this sounds impolite but I don’t understand why there’s such a mystery created regarding the use of burlap. Burlap isn’t hard to come by and yes, it might give us clues as to the killer’s profession, but it isn’t a special or unique material.

That being said, I think it was used for purely practical reasons. When it comes to hiding a body almost in plain sight (yes they were obscured by the brush but they were still close to OP), you need to ideally cover it in something that closely resembles the surround scenery. The brush on OP is shades of brown during fall, winter, and part of spring. The rest of the time it’s shades of green and of course still a lot of brown. So burlap was an ideal choice being that it’s brown and looks “earthy” and isn’t a material you’d question too much if you saw it out there.

The other reason I believe burlap was used is more graphic and gruesome. Burlap has hundreds and hundreds of holes in its fabric which allows for aeration. Whether there’s a plant wrapped in it or a body, there will be pretty ample aeration due to the weave of the fabric. Burlap both allowed the bodies to be more or less hidden in plain sight, but also allowed them to decompose more quickly due to the aeration.

If he was smart and this was his angle with burlap, he’d know that 1. it blends in with the environment, 2. that it allows aeration so decomposition is accelerated which means 3. that if and when the bodies were found (which they obviously were), the accelerated decomposition due to the use of burlap would make finding evidence much, much more difficult.

Excellent post, thanks!

 

[coldcaser]

Excellent post, thanks!

Thank you! I wasn’t sure if this angle was considered before. I think the aeration of burlap angle might be very important. If my thinking is in fact why he used it, that shows a lot of thought and organization put into these murders. Burlap allowing the acceleration of decomposition also reminds me of what he said about Melissa Barthelemy to her sister: “I’m watching her rot”. Maybe he was literally watching her rot. It’s a very disturbing prospect.

 

[coldcaser]

This leads me to ask, and sorry if this is the wrong thread, but in what state of decomposition exactly was every GB4 victim found?

 

[Blueeyedbrowngirl]

This leads me to ask, and sorry if this is the wrong thread, but in what state of decomposition exactly was every GB4 victim found?

When interviewed for the LISK podcast, Dave Schaller said he identified Amber Costello’s body by a tattoo on her arm. Amber disappeared on September 2, 2010 and was found a few months later in December. September on Long Island is still warm and sunny - both of which would contribute to quicker decomposition, especially near the water - so if a tattoo was still visible/identifiable 3 months after she disappeared, I wonder if she was kept alive for awhile or if her body was kept in a cold storage type of environment for a period of time before being left on Ocean Parkway. Lost Girls author Robert Kolker said on the same podcast that he thinks the GB4 were placed along the Parkway at the same time.

I don’t know what stage of decomposition the other GB 4 victims were in; I don’t recall reading anything about it and I think law enforcement has been tight lipped regarding the subject.

 

[coldcaser]

When interviewed for the LISK podcast, Dave Schaller said he identified Amber Costello’s body by a tattoo on her arm. Amber disappeared on September 2, 2010 and was found a few months later in December. September on Long Island is still warm and sunny - both of which would contribute to quicker decomposition, especially near the water - so if a tattoo was still visible/identifiable 3 months after she disappeared, I wonder if she was kept alive for awhile or if her body was kept in a cold storage type of environment for a period of time before being left on Ocean Parkway. Lost Girls author Robert Kolker said on the same podcast that he thinks the GB4 were placed along the Parkway at the same time.

I don’t know what stage of decomposition the other GB 4 victims were in; I don’t recall reading anything about it and I think law enforcement has been tight lipped regarding the subject.

After I posted this I felt like it was maybe a dumb question, since their state of decomposition can all be estimated by how long they were there. That's very surprising he was able to identify her by her tattoo... she was there for months, certainly long enough for putrefaction to occur. Long Island is hot in September and warm well into October often. Maybe her remains were kept somewhere, but honestly Schaller could also not be telling the truth. I have no idea why someone would lie about something like that, but I also don't trust his account of what happened the night she disappeared.

I really don't think they were all placed at Gilgo at the same time though. That would require unsub to have a place where he was able to keep multiple corpses for 3 years, from 2007 to 2010, without anyone noticing... seeing the corpses, smelling them, etc. He'd need somewhere big enough to do this and isolated enough to do this, both from neighbors and any family members who might stumble across a mass grave. Someone able to keep a mass grave a secret for multiple years would probably be someone very socially isolated with little contact with friends or family members. Someone who wouldn't have visitors over who might smell dead bodies or stumble across them. Someone who lived a lifestyle that would enable keeping a mass grave wouldn't be someone socially adept enough to persuade sex workers into the situations the GB4 ended up in. Doing out calls, leaving phones behind, not telling people where they're going or who they're meeting, etc. IMO that theory isn't supported by the profile or MO of LISK. But never say never!

 

[Blueeyedbrowngirl]

I don’t think the GB4 were placed along the parkway at the same time; LISK is too calculated to take that risk.

 

[Deleted member 96356]

The other reason I believe burlap was used is more graphic and gruesome. Burlap has hundreds and hundreds of holes in its fabric which allows for aeration. Whether there’s a plant wrapped in it or a body, there will be ample aeration due to the weave of the fabric. Burlap both allowed the bodies to be more or less hidden in plain sight, but also allowed them to decompose more quickly due to the aeration.

RSBM

This is an excellent observation! A good reason why the burlap might have been used for a reason besides "easy access" - after all, any person would also have easy access to trash bags, cardboard boxes, etc. The breathable, natural fabric (which might also have had an interplay with the salinity of the soil and water, wrt decomp?), the equal spacing of the G4 bodies... the method of disposal was somehow important or significant to this person imo, and imo he chose the burlap on purpose as opposed to using it on a lark. I think he didn't want to simply leave his victims' remains to putrefy in trash bags, or be burned to ashes, or lost to the ocean.

It sickens me this [censored] hasn't been caught yet. He/they chose victims who were uniquely vulnerable. I cannot abide that.

 

[Laura Avery]

Hi, quick questions re the Burlap. I have just re-read the lost girls book.
There is something i'm not sure I have seen mentioned anywhere.
The four first victims they found wrapped in burlap, do we know the state of decomp for the actual material itself? Given there is a little time between each victims disappearance/murder, burlap should degenerate with expose to the elements and body fluids.
Because if the material was all in various states of decomp, it would be totally different if the material all looked fresh and the same age roughly. ie could they have all been "dumped" suddenly which means the burlap would all look fresh?
Secondly do we know what type of burlap it was there are quite a few varieties one finer softer type used for crafting mostly and one thick one used for sacking (Although you can use it for crafting also it's not as nice to the touch). One wonders where someone would get a load of burlap from without raising suspicion. It's quite expensive here in the UK by the meter. A lot would have printing on if from maybe flour/coffee sacks, but it's obviously bought by the meter/yard as there is no mention of advertising prints. Our local fisherman use large amounts, as do gardeners, I think road constructions for cement?
Thanks.