By Accident Or On Purpose Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?

[kanzz]

We know John took melatonin...Does anyone know if any other sleeping pills were found in the house?

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hmm...

:thinking:



(Gee, I guess you could always google that.)

 

[Pinkland]

hmm...

:thinking:



(Gee, I guess you could always google that.)

I suppose I could. I find no shame in it. Though...I was asking to save some time. As I usually do not Google on my phone. Also, I have no issue asking about something I do not know.

I'm very glad for the suggestion though, as it is very considerate from someone whom is usually bitter, rude, and condescending.



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[kanzz]

I suppose I could. I find no shame in it. Though...I was asking to save some time. As I usually do not Google on my phone. Also, I have no issue asking about something I do not know.

I'm very glad for the suggestion though, as it is very considerate from someone whom is usually bitter, rude, and condescending.



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bbm

That's pretty rich, coming from someone who replied to me, "Though I'm glad you took the time to Google it."

So, I thought I'd throw a little humor at ya. :sigh:

 

[Pinkland]

bbm

That's pretty rich, coming from someone who replied to me, "Though I'm glad you took the time to Google it."

So, I thought I'd throw a little humor at ya. :sigh:

Yes very humerous, considering your type of humour is evident in separate threads long before the Google comment.

The point of the Google comment was that....unless you're a doctor who specializes in the neurological or the central nervous system...who are you to state what is or isn't "medically sound information" in regards to breathing patterns in trauma patients.

Even if you are a RN, you were not present at the murder scene. Nor does it make you an expert. Perhaps you worked in pediatrics, a clinic, or a Dr's office in your years of experience. 2-4 years of college education does not make you qualified in all fields of medical expertise. Thus, it would be extremely foolish to just rely on what you find to be "medically sound"; just because you said so.

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[kanzz]

Yes very humerous, considering your type of humour is evident in separate threads long before the Google comment.

The point of the Google comment was that....unless you're a doctor who specializes in the neurological or the central nervous system...who are you to state what is or isn't "medically sound information" in regards to breathing patterns in trauma patients.

Even if you are a RN, you were not present at the murder scene. Nor does it make you an expert. Perhaps you worked in pediatrics, a clinic, or a Dr's office in your years of experience. 2-4 years of college education does not make you qualified in all fields of medical expertise. Thus, it would be extremely foolish to just rely on what you find to be "medically sound"; just because you said so.

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bbm

With a primary background in the ER, I can tell you that we work as a team and that docs rely heavily on input from nurses (who see the patient first).
Neuro docs don't work in ER unless they're called in on consult after we've already figured out what's going on.
I've not only been an RN for 37 years, but also a CEN (Certified Emergency Nurse) & a TNS (Trauma Nurse Specialist), with ACLS (Advanced Cardiac Life Support) provider & instructor status, & a TNCC (Trauma Nurse Core Course) provider.
So, when you question who I am to state what is medically sound... Check yourself.
I'll say again - what you stated was not medically sound. I stand by that. If I see something that is off base, I sometimes feel compelled, as a medical professional, to state what is correct.

 

[BBB167893]

Sounds like a fancy term for inventive staging. Lets do a fugue today, we will have Blunt Force Trauma, a sexual assault and a fancy asphyxiation, i.e. an act in three parts.

,

Okay, forget I ever mentioned it!

 

[BoldBear]

kanzz,

The discussion on this thread has my curiosity peaked. I've seen discussion about agonal respiration and have been able to get a very basic understanding. I expect this type of breathing to occur prior to death when the pressure increases in the brain. I'm curious if before this happens, if JB could not have appeared to be dead--heart rate decreased and very weak or shallow breathing where she may have appeared to be dead or very near death.

From sportsinjuryclinic.net in describing a concussion:

Severe cases will more than likely result in mental confusion lasting for 5 minutes or more. Severe ringing in the ears or tinitus may be experienced. Prolonged loss of memory of events before the accident may occur. Loss of consciousness for more than 5 minutes is possible along with an increase in blood pressure and a decrease in heart rate.

From a site that calls itself: The Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago

Children, and people in general, with severe traumatic brain injury have high pressure inside their skull due to brain swelling. If not treated, death can occur. Decreasing consciousness, extremely uneven pupils that do not react to light stimulus, slow heart rate and respiratory slowing are all serious signs of traumatic brain injury, as is abnormal posturing. It is extremely important to have a physician or other trained health care professional be aware of the young child's symptoms to insure that treatment is provided and the risk of further damage to the brain is illiminated.*

I bolded parts of the quotes and don't know if these sites are accurate.

So somewhere in the timeline, could JB have gone from appearing to be dead by have very slow heart rate and shallow breathing to agonal respiration as she got closer to death?

Also, thank you for your input to these forums.

 

[kanzz]

kanzz,

The discussion on this thread has my curiosity peaked. I've seen discussion about agonal respiration and have been able to get a very basic understanding. I expect this type of breathing to occur prior to death when the pressure increases in the brain. I'm curious if before this happens, if JB could not have appeared to be dead--heart rate decreased and very weak or shallow breathing where she may have appeared to be dead or very near death.

From sportsinjuryclinic.net in describing a concussion:

Severe cases will more than likely result in mental confusion lasting for 5 minutes or more. Severe ringing in the ears or tinitus may be experienced. Prolonged loss of memory of events before the accident may occur. Loss of consciousness for more than 5 minutes is possible along with an increase in blood pressure and a decrease in heart rate.

From a site that calls itself: The Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago

Children, and people in general, with severe traumatic brain injury have high pressure inside their skull due to brain swelling. If not treated, death can occur. Decreasing consciousness, extremely uneven pupils that do not react to light stimulus, slow heart rate and respiratory slowing are all serious signs of traumatic brain injury, as is abnormal posturing. It is extremely important to have a physician or other trained health care professional be aware of the young child's symptoms to insure that treatment is provided and the risk of further damage to the brain is illiminated.*

I bolded parts of the quotes and don't know if these sites are accurate.

So somewhere in the timeline, could JB have gone from appearing to be dead by have very slow heart rate and shallow breathing to agonal respiration as she got closer to death?

Also, thank you for your input to these forums.

A few things I want to share about abnormal breathing patterns:

The patient is mouth-breathing, and there are mouth movements occurring as air is being exchanged.
For example, in Agonal breathing - there will be a few seconds of apnea (no breathing) during which time the mouth is closed, followed by a gasp.
In Cheyne-Stokes, Agonal, or most of the abnormal breathing patterns - accessory muscles are used, including neck, shoulders, chest, and abdominal muscles.
Abnormal breathing is audible.

Even as respirations slowed, I don't think JB would have appeared dead. I've never seen a person "look dead" until after they have taken their last breath, no matter what kind of injuries, illness, or breathing pattern they had. And I've been with a lot of people as they were dying.

I hope this helps. I'm hoping this graphic will help, too, but I remember the first time I saw one I was a little confused by it. If you just look at the first line as you breathe in and out normally, it might help to put perspective on the other patterns. After you've done that for 30 seconds or so, look at the others and experiment.
The inflection of the wave indicates the volume of air into the lungs (the up wave) and the deflection is the air out of the lungs (the down wave).

 

[AlGx]

I highly doubt this was an accident. The garrote and how deep it was furrowed into her neck just doesn't sound like an "accident" to me.

I dont understand why this intruder would have to crack her skull then killer. Why not just use the supposed "stun gun" then garrote- job done? I know it's horrible to say like..

 

[andreww]

I highly doubt this was an accident. The garrote and how deep it was furrowed into her neck just doesn't sound like an "accident" to me.

I dont understand why this intruder would have to crack her skull then killer. Why not just use the supposed "stun gun" then garrote- job done? I know it's horrible to say like..

Because there was no intruder another was no stun gun.

 

[icedtea4me]

I highly doubt this was an accident. The garrote and how deep it was furrowed into her neck just doesn't sound like an "accident" to me.

I dont understand why this intruder would have to crack her skull then killer. Why not just use the supposed "stun gun" then garrote- job done? I know it's horrible to say like..

Nice rhetorical questions.

 

[Annapurna]

I highly doubt this was an accident. The garrote and how deep it was furrowed into her neck just doesn't sound like an "accident" to me.

I dont understand why this intruder would have to crack her skull then killer. Why not just use the supposed "stun gun" then garrote- job done? I know it's horrible to say like..

Also worth noting that a stun-gun does not incapacitate someone, it just zaps em and it hurts. If a stun gun was used on her she would have screamed and woke the whole house up. There are videos online of a Taser (the brand that Lou Smit says was used) being used on people and you can see how it would actually look. Essentially it was ridiculous for Lou Smit to even suggest it was a stun gun, but he was never one to let evidence get in the way of a good theory.


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[AndHence]

Also worth noting that a stun-gun does not incapacitate someone, it just zaps em and it hurts. If a stun gun was used on her she would have screamed and woke the whole house up. There are videos online of a Taser (the brand that Lou Smit says was used) being used on people and you can see how it would actually look. Essentially it was ridiculous for Lou Smit to even suggest it was a stun gun, but he was never one to let evidence get in the way of a good theory.


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Exactly. Also, stun guns are LOUD. A kidnapper would have used chloroform or something.

 

[icedtea4me]

Exactly. Also, stun guns are LOUD. A kidnapper would have used chloroform or something.

Not to be confused with Colorforms.

 

[UKGuy]

I highly doubt this was an accident. The garrote and how deep it was furrowed into her neck just doesn't sound like an "accident" to me.

I dont understand why this intruder would have to crack her skull then killer. Why not just use the supposed "stun gun" then garrote- job done? I know it's horrible to say like..

AlGx,
I reckon you are right, it was no accident. The ligature furrow might be deliberate staging.

That's its purpose, to demonstrate how the ligature was used.

Looks like someone went postal on JonBenet, all those superficial injuries on her body, the abrasions and contusions, on her arms, back, face, etc, then you have the blunt force to the head.


Seems like someone went berserk and poor JonBenet was in the firing line?

Later one of the parents would apply the ligature, probably Patsy, and fake a horrible death.

Kolar thinks it was premediated , suggesting JonBenet was the target of someones rage and along with the sexual assault means this was how someone decided they would attack JonBenet?

You have to wonder what the sequemce was, i.e. blunt force first, sexual assault second, or was it in reverse.

If so why should should sexual assault lead to blunt force trauma, particularly for those who think the same person had assaulted JonBenet on numerous occasions?

They way I read it, is the parents staged the wine-cellar crime-scene to mask the fact that a family member was sexually molesting JonBenet, so with no medical assistance called, they decided to kill JonBenet?

.

 

[Gigitmdy]

I believe Burke smashed her on the head, and was responsible for choking her in some manner that actually killed her. I think Patsy found her in that condition, which would explain why there some staging necessary. I have come to believe Burke did more than just hit her in the head in a rash moment.

 

[Ambitioned]

Seems like someone went berserk and poor JonBenet was in the firing line?
.

*Almost* like Zeke Holmes? (Aged 12) It's odd really. Even though Zeke did the deed, dad is making excuses for him much like JR and PR did with BR, IMO.

 

[BoldBear]

[Snip]
Looks like someone went postal on JonBenet, all those superficial injuries on her body, the abrasions and contusions, on her arms, back, face, etc, then you have the blunt force to the head.

[Snip]

Where there abrasions and contusion on her arms? There were abrasions and contusions on her shoulders. There were two marks on her back and some rust color scratches on her leg.

The face, the neck, the ear, the shoulders, two marks on her back, and scratches on her leg and a really big bruise near her collar bone coming off of the neck. Have I missed something?

 

[andreww]

Where there abrasions and contusion on her arms? There were abrasions and contusions on her shoulders. There were two marks on her back and some rust color scratches on her leg.

The face, the neck, the ear, the shoulders, two marks on her back, and scratches on her leg and a really big bruise near her collar bone coming off of the neck. Have I missed something?

The face (Train track poke marks)
the neck (Ligature marks and posible marks from manual strangulation)
the ear (???)
two marks on her back (Train track poke marks)
scratches on her leg (???)
really big bruise near her collar bone (possibly from a knee holding her down as the garrotte was pulled)

So I don't think anyone went "postal" on her, I think most of these marks occurred after she was unconscious.

 

[UKGuy]

Where there abrasions and contusion on her arms? There were abrasions and contusions on her shoulders. There were two marks on her back and some rust color scratches on her leg.

The face, the neck, the ear, the shoulders, two marks on her back, and scratches on her leg and a really big bruise near her collar bone coming off of the neck. Have I missed something?

BoldBear,
Probably not. Going postal is an exaggeration on my part, typing too fast.

The abrasions and contusions might have arrived via JonBenet being moved, redressed, whatever.

For a minimal BDI I'm thinking manual strangulation, followed by blunt force to the head?

With the parents adding the rest as fake crime-scene staging, this is why Patsy's fibers are embedded into the knotting on the ligature.

Even if the case were PDI, Patsy does not need to knot the ligature to asphyxiate JonBenet.

JonBenet might even have been internally assaulted with the paintbrush, then wiped down as part of the staging?

Coroner Meyer is ambiguous on the sexual assault, i.e. he cites sexual contact and digital penetration, then later seeks a second opinion.

So maybe he and colleague agree there was an assault, but it might have been fake, and Meyer has changed his opinion on the sexual contact?

Or he has upgraded it to include both events e.g. a sexual assault and a staged assault?

.