By Accident Or On Purpose Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey?

[Meara]

Fathers of murder victims do not stage basements for strangers who murder their children.

:yesss:
hahahahahahaha!

Merry Christmas to you and all!:santahat:

Happy Hanukkah! :menorah:

:getwell: for me - sick as a dog : p

 

[Ambitioned]

What would you fight with your sister about?

Burke: Um...Ah.....about not wanting her to play video games.

You don't like to share with her?

Burke: I-- cause I just don't like the music, it's like de, de, da, de, de, de, de so

He clearly hates the repetitive music of video games. Nowadays a lot of games have real music from actual bands/artists but in the 90s, a lot of games had some irritating sound effects that was just a continuous wall of noise on a loop. Different levels would feature some different music and this comment from Burke reinforces my earlier point about Jonbenet being too young to play most Nintendo games. She would keep "dying" on the first level, so this means Burke(or anyone in the room) would continually have to hear that same audio over and over and over again.

Wow! Excellent sleuthing!!! I personally know some children who have sensory processing disorder. Annoying sounds and lights trigger them. This is why many classes have to reduce the lighting, put slit tennis balls on the bottoms of chairs, reduce extra noise, place writing paper on top of a soft book or tablet to reduce noises when writing, etc.

I do remember that music and it WAS annoying. I'm sure it's multipled 1000x for a child with SPD.

As for sharing, we know he bristled at Dr. Bernhard taking a drink from his soda. It's possible he didn't like JB touching ANY of his things. He may not have liked her playing video games period if he viewed that as "his" thing.

Great find again on the sharing. Merry Christmas!! :christmastree::santahat:

 

[BBB167893]

That definitely implies premeditation.


Those PDI theories of a religious sacrifice and that whole Prime of Miss Jean Brodie thing are bizarre. You basically have to use the Hubble telescope to view the Deep Field to detect anything realistic about it but some of it does make sense. My main problem with it(besides it being outlandish in general), is that its simply too complicated and requires you to connect so many dots that may not even exist in the first place. They're trawling a net full of red herrings and claiming they're serving up halibut filets. You must also take every single coincidence and somehow loop them in Patsy's direction.

I'm more inclined to believe Patsy was an unstable, middle aged cancer survivor, abuser of prescription drugs who was suffering a mid life crisis of sorts and knew the sand in her hourglass was running out. She was living a life in a whirlwind of dysfunctional chaos, living vicariously through her young beautiful daughter she was molding into a miniature version of herself, a perfect marriage on the surface that was likely anything but perfect, an awkward son who may have been slipping through the cracks due to so much focus on Jonbenet, and then add the cherry on top of the strong possibility one or both children had been suffering from sexual abuse on a regular basis.

Patsy was the aging beauty queen who is fading from existence. Jonbenet was young, full of promise, and had an entire lifetime ahead of her. A vicarious link can bring out envy, jealousy, and even rage. How dare she get to be so beautiful, happy, carefree, and draw the attention of boys and light up a room! That should be me damnit!

I cant even imagine the mindset of Jonbenet and the confusion she must have felt. On one hand she is acting very mature, assertive, confident, etc. but on the other hand she is regressing at the same time. A girl who has the charisma and courage to perform in front of hundreds of people at a mall or pageant doesn't even know how to wipe herself. A girl who is so confident(some may call it arrogant) that she will order adults around and tell people where they can sit in the car is incapable of reading her own name on a gift tag.

Her priorities were all out of whack. None of this is her fault. This quirky personality coming to the surface is Patsy's creation and due to the environment she lived in. She is learning quickly that her looks are what matter and open all doors. Education has taken a back seat and may not have even been much of a factor at all.

The housekeeper's descriptions of Patsy taking Jonbenet to the bathroom and then she hears Jonbenet screaming are disturbing. Supposedly John and Patsy did not spank their children. Obviously this is where the corporal cleansing theory of Thomas comes in but if he's wrong, what else is she doing to her in there? There are very few options.....none of them paint a picture of family bliss. Is it corporal cleansing, some other abuse(sexual?), or Patsy venting rage in general at Jonbenet?

The irony of any such negative feelings towards Jonbenet would be that its Patsy herself responsible for creating and molding the person she now covets.

There appear to be multiple layers to this family's dysfunction. All the issues with Jonbenet, Burke is acting out as well, both adults drink and least one of them is using drugs, and IMO this house was no stranger to domestic quarrels.

A perfect storm was in the forecast. IMO even if she wasn't murdered Christmas night, something tragic was eventually going to happen in this family. I believe the people in their circle knew this as well. Kinda interesting how just when their clique is considering an intervention of sorts over the "mega Jonbenet" issue, she winds up dead.

On the surface the crime is a paradox within a paradox thanks mainly to the staging but underneath it all....what I see is a dysfunctional family in the midst of domestic violence and it went too far. The abuse could have been a motive or had absolutely nothing to do with it. This issue needed to be investigated more thoroughly because it just muddies already muddy water and could be a red herring as far as murder is concerned or be the key that unravels the mystery.

Patsy didn't need to offer up her six year old daughter as a sacrifice to Jesus or be obsessed with the Prime of Miss Jean Brodie to have killed Jonbenet. Such theories are just way too complicated. Those types of scenarios happen in movies. This wasn't a movie.

Just to add to what you said, singularity, I've run into a few people who do "like" Burke for this, and almost all of them say the same thing: he was the quiet kid. How many times do we hear that one? "It's the quiet ones you gotta watch." No! No it's not!

Let me lay this scenario on you: if you're in a bar with two other people, and one is sitting quietly at a table sipping a Budweiser, and the other whips out a machete screaming, "I'll kill the next m*****f***** who comes in here!" which one are you going to watch?

Same thing here. To me, Patsy was the most visibly unstable person in that family.

 

[ElleElle]

I have a silly question for seasoned JBR posters.

Why do I read in several places that PR was on high doses of benzos and ADs? Where does this information come from?

 

[Meara]

So what we have to do is refute Kolars BDI All, even demonstrating that BR was a normal healthy nine year old would do the trick?

Surely you jest.

 

[singularity]

I have a silly question for seasoned JBR posters.

Why do I read in several places that PR was on high doses of benzos and ADs? Where does this information come from?

For starters....from John and Patsy's own mouths(the "interrogations"). I would've known she was a pill popper even if they had never said a peep just by watching her interviews. So would anyone else who has been at the bottom of a pill bottle before or known others who have.

Watch this clip....

[video=youtube;kOfATfILHys]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOfATfILHys[/video]

Patsy is stoned out of her mind on either xanax or valium. Flip a coin. In my former drug user's opinion, she's at least on 5-6 mg xanax or 50-60 mg valium. If she's got a really high tolerance, you can double that estimate.

 

[Tortoise]

Add in the fact that she made sure to get Dr Beuf, family friend, straight over to the Fernies that afternoon, to prescribe her valium, not her own doctor. Is that because she had left her own pills at home?

Merry Christmas All.

 

[Tortoise]

Do her pupils look unusually large in this photo?

 

[singularity]

Is that because she had left her own pills at home?

Or because she had run out, couldn't get an early refill from her own doctor, so she needed Jonbenet's doctor to give her a new prescription?

 

[Tortoise]

Or because she had run out, couldn't get an early refill from her own doctor, so she needed Jonbenet's doctor to give her a new prescription?

You never know, but I suspect she was getting her pills from Dr Beuf. Maybe that's why there were so many visits and phone calls to Beuf. Especially on the 17th December when she couldn't remember why she called him 3 times.

 

[singularity]

Do her pupils look unusually large in this photo?

A bit but I've always wanted to see a HQ version of this photo. Its one of the most interesting and controversial photos for a variety of reasons. Some think the smile is forced, she's holding Jonbenet tight, Jonbenet's smile is forced, etc.

Her face also appears to be flushing and this is one of the early and common symptoms of benzo withdrawal..... a reddening of the face and forehead, chest, or hands. Severe agitation is next on tap if not already in progress.

Of course her face could be red for a number of other reasons as well.

There are tons of benzo withdrawal symptoms but pulled this list from one site.....


Common Side Effects:



Anxiety, possible terror and panic attacks
Agitation and restlessness
Hypochondriasis
Dilated pupils
Impaired concentration
Nightmares
Insomnia
Muscular spasms, cramps or fasciculations
Electric shock sensations
Blurred vision
Dizziness
Dry mouth
Aches and pains
Hearing impairment
Taste and smell disturbances
Chest pain
Flu like symptoms
Impaired memory and concentration
Increased sensitivity to sound
Increased urinary frequency
Numbness and tingling
Hot and cold flushes
Headache
Rebound REM sleep
Stiffness
Fatigue and weakness
Hyperosmia
Restless legs syndrome
Metallic taste
Photophobia

Paranoia

Hypnagogia-hallucinations
Nausea and vomiting
Elevation in blood pressure
Tachycardia
Hypertension
Postural hypotension
Depression (can be severe)

possible suicidal ideation
Tremor
Perspiration
Loss of appetite and weight loss
Dysphoria

Depersonalization

Derealisation (Feelings of unreality)
Obsessive compulsive disorder
Tinnitus
Paraesthesia

Visual disturbances

Mood swings
Indecision
Gastrointestinal problems (Irritable bowel syndrome)


An abrupt or over-rapid discontinuation of benzodiazepines may result in a more serious and very unpleasant withdrawal syndrome that may additionally result in:



Convulsions, which may result in death
Catatonia, which may result in death
Coma
(rare)
Suicide
Attempted suicide
Suicidal ideation
Self harm
Hyperthermia
Delusions

Homicide ideations
Urges to shout, throw, break things or to harm someone
Violence
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
Organic brain syndrome
Psychosis

Confusion

Mania
Neuroleptic malignant syndrome like event

-------

Photophobia

Hmm......is this the reason the family is using flashlights and maybe even night vision goggles Christmas night?

Delusions

Homicide ideations
Urges to shout, throw, break things or to harm someone
Violence

Psychosis

Confusion

Mania

Visual disturbances

Mood swings
Indecision

Depersonalization

Derealisation (Feelings of unreality)
Depression (can be severe)
Paranoia

I'd certainly feel sorry for any child who would have to be near someone experiencing any of those things....

 

[Tortoise]

Did they test her blood for drugs, or was it just for DNA purposes?

Mind you, she was on valium when they went to give samples on 28th, so that would've been pointless.

 

[singularity]

Did they test her blood for drugs, or was it just for DNA purposes?

Mind you, she was on valium when they went to give samples on 28th, so that would've been pointless.

She danced across the end zone on the issue. She admitted to benzo and antidepressant use in the interviews and they never pushed it further or asked her to elaborate. Idiots. The least they could've done was get her to admit using painkillers but she had a legit reason for that habit.....cancer. They never ask, she never says. She was probably shocked when she admitted to taking benzos in the transcript and they move on like she simply announced water is wet.

 

[ElleElle]

Thanks all!

So, since benzo withdrawal can cause agitation, I truly am convinced she wrote the RN. The writing appears to be hers, but shakier.

What day did she call the Dr 3 times?

Maybe she ran out of meds, hence causing a "psycho" moment. (even BR said in an interview, she was psycho).

So, could it possible lost it the night of the 25th and went into a violent rage? Are there any accounts from friends on her behavior the days leading up to Christmas?

I keep swinging from BDI to PDI.

 

[TeaTime]

"...the two gentlemen looking over your daughter. . ."

I couldn't recognize all the movie posters in the basement but one was for "An Officer and a Gentleman" and hung on wall between the train room and the hall/WC.

I have long thought that there was a clue in the RN as to where JBR would be found.

Anyone catch another 'gentleman' on a poster?

 

[LetThemEatCake]

It is shocking to me that Burke being the killer is the most voted option when test after test after test of DNA and circumstantial evidence has cleared Burke and the family over and over and over again for almost 30 years now. The killer will never be found with this blinders on mentality that Burke did it. As a matter of fact, that is exactly how the killer got away, by obsessing over Patsy Ramsey's non-existent guilt. The facts AND the truth, will set you free.

 

[Meara]

It is shocking to me that Burke being the killer is the most voted option when test after test after test of DNA and circumstantial evidence has cleared Burke and the family over and over and over again for almost 30 years now. The killer will never be found with this blinders on mentality that Burke did it. As a matter of fact, that is exactly how the killer got away, by obsessing over Patsy Ramsey's non-existent guilt. The facts AND the truth, will set you free.

LetThemEatCake,

DNA evidence has always been inconclusive, at best. You may want to look at a thread now in the top 12 or so called "New DNA Analysis Suggests Family Should NOT Have Been Cleared". Just for myself, I don't think any IDI theory of the case that doesn't also account for the family's' bizarre behavior can succeed.

Also, since you are emphasizing facts, please note that the case is only 20 years old.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

"...the two gentlemen looking over your daughter. . ."

I couldn't recognize all the movie posters in the basement but one was for "An Officer and a Gentleman" and hung on wall between the train room and the hall/WC.

I have long thought that there was a clue in the RN as to where JBR would be found.

Anyone catch another 'gentleman' on a poster?

Not on a poster but on a previous letter of PR..

 

[UKGuy]

Unaccustomed to or so full of themselves and their pet projects they fail to deal with the big picture?


That's a loaded question for several reasons. You ask what does Burke get? What does Burke want? Many believe he is autistic, has ADHD, or a list of other disorders. Maybe he likes solitude and has no desire for much interaction with other children and prefers the adults in his life to leave him alone. Burke is the enigma in this family equation because we don't know enough about him. If he's truly autistic, there are so many levels of it. I doubt he is on the level of Rain Man going by what little footage we have seen of him and even if he is not autistic, there's clearly something a bit odd going on. He might just be antisocial, shy, and IMO he might be a victim of abuse.

While I have viewed the Burke footage and read the interviews like everyone else, something stuck out to me last night while checking out the shakedown site. THis must have slipped by me the first time I saw it but it waved a red flag last night....

What would you fight with your sister about?

Burke: Um...Ah.....about not wanting her to play video games.

You don't like to share with her?

Burke: I-- cause I just don't like the music, it's like de, de, da, de, de, de, de so




He clearly hates the repetitive music of video games. Nowadays a lot of games have real music from actual bands/artists but in the 90s, a lot of games had some irritating sound effects that was just a continuous wall of noise on a loop. Different levels would feature some different music and this comment from Burke reinforces my earlier point about Jonbenet being too young to play most Nintendo games. She would keep "dying" on the first level, so this means Burke(or anyone in the room) would continually have to hear that same audio over and over and over again.

Since he only had the N64 for mere hours before the murder, he is clearly talking about the NES. The most played game on NES was Super Mario Bros. Since Jonbenet likely would never pass the first level, for those of you who never played Nintendo, here is the first level and listen to the sound effects....

[video=youtube;PsC0zIhWNww]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsC0zIhWNww[/video]


Did Burke actually prefer to play video games with the TV on mute? That would be very strange to say the least. Which leads to the question....why? Is this something that people with various disorders suffer from? Did something ever happen to him while playing video games and the music is a potential trigger? No way to really answer this I suppose. Did he simply hate HER playing it?


If he is the odd duckling, its not surprising that Patsy would focus most of her attention on Jonbenet when going into remission. She could mold Jonbenet into whatever Patsy wanted her to be. Going by the history of Patsy's family, JOnbenet's future was set in stone whether she liked it or not. Its unfortunate we can never know how much she truly enjoyed doing the pageants.

She may not have "discounted his potential" but simply cast him aside as her own interests were not going to be able to include Burke. Maybe she expected John to pick up the slack as far as Burke goes and there are signs they shared some interests.

Obviously I disagree with that and even if I weren't PDI, I wouldn't have an issue with that table not being cleaned up. So much chaos in the house that night and I'm sure that bowl of pineapple and two glasses were not high priority. It may not even have crossed anyones mind.

We know she would occasionally wear Burke's old clothing, some female WS members have also said they've done the same thing in childhood so I don't consider the long johns to be a huge issue. There's a variety of reasons discussed for the use of the size 12s and those panties don't rule anyone in or out. Each "DI" could make a case for them.

JOhn is going to be down there staging whether its JDI, PDI, or BDI. He certainly took huge risks going back down there after 6 am and while many facts show that an intruder never existed, the simple fact John repeatedly goes down there and goes off the grid IMO is the smoking gun as far as no IDI is concerned.

Fathers of murder victims do not stage basements for strangers who murder their children.


Even if I were to get remotely close to believing BDI, I could never fall in line with Kolar's version. he basically places it all on Burke. IMO if Burke did have something to do with it, he bludgeoned her and that's when he exits stage left of this equation. Patsy and/or John take over from there and Burke is sent to her room.

I wanted to go into more detail on Kolar and refuting BDI All but someone just came over. We'll revisit that issue later.


Merry Christmas everyone!

singularity,

That's a loaded question for several reasons. You ask what does Burke get?

Patsy is on record quoting JonBenet as her new project, Burke was dumped, Patsy realized BR was never going to be an alpha male, he had issues.

The NES game playing is futher evidence that BR was in JonBenet's bedroom, whatever caused BR to whack JonBenet on the head, is not going to be divulged to a patently curious interviewer. That why BR replies with what he thinks is an innocuous subject, e.g. game play audio.

I'm not a fan of BDI All, since it is out there in published format it is a good theoretical basis from which to proceed. If anyone can refute BDI then we can move onto PDI or JDI.

I reckon the JonBenet case is an example of a Brother on Sister case gone seriously wrong.

Kolar might be right, i.e. the case is BDI All, its just that it offends our sensibilities that it might be so.

BR might have done it all, and the parents have rearranged the forensic evidence to allow for an intruder?

Obviously I disagree with that and even if I weren't PDI, I wouldn't have an issue with that table not being cleaned up. So much chaos in the house that night and I'm sure that bowl of pineapple and two glasses were not high priority. It may not even have crossed anyone's mind.

We know she would occasionally wear Burke's old clothing, some female WS members have also said they've done the same thing in childhood so I don't consider the long johns to be a huge issue. There's a variety of reasons discussed for the use of the size 12s and those panties don't rule anyone in or out. Each "DI" could make a case for them.

If you do not have an issue with the R's mistakes then you are exhibiting bias, i.e. you are favoring evidence that suits your theory.

Patsy is going to lie about the size-12's and Burke's long johns. Have you read her interviews where she has a memory loss over whether JonBenet changed into clean underwear for the White's party?

The long johns are huge issue because they are male, i.e. belong to Burke, alike the size-12's, again belong to Patsy's niece, do you connect the dots? Answer they do not belong to JonBenet!

We have a homicide and the victim is wearing someone elses clothing.

So it looks like Burke redressed JonBenet in the long johns and size-12's after a Playing Doctor session went badly wrong.

 

[LetThemEatCake]

LetThemEatCake,

DNA evidence has always been inconclusive, at best. You may want to look at a thread now in the top 12 or so called "New DNA Analysis Suggests Family Should NOT Have Been Cleared". Just for myself, I don't think any IDI theory of the case that doesn't also account for the family's' bizarre behavior can succeed.

Also, since you are emphasizing facts, please note that the case is only 20 years old.

It's not what I've read, and how can the DNA be inconclusive when there is a definitive DNA profile found on the crime scene?