CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #11

[al66pine]

The 24 Hour Rule.
@deugirtni Thanks for your post. My thoughts in red. Added some bbm to your post.

I am not convincd that LE would start an investigation questioning other people B knew, *unless* they suspected that RT's story was not true. He reported it, said he was obviously the last to have seen her, knew exactly where he saw her last, he reportedly reported after she'd been missing only one hour, he reported he'd lost sight of her within 5 minutes of the RV.. LE aren't psychics,
LEOs do not have to be psychics. They are LE. LE w written procedures, handbooks, manuals, training, chain of command, etc.
and so they may have taken his report at face value
LE did take RT's report at face value: They arranged for SAR and the whole enchilada immediately. LE can also remain open to other interps.
(although five hours in the back of a police vehicle may suggest that perhaps it wasn't at face value, I don't know?), and carried on with what they would normally do with a person reported missing in the desert. Why would LE imagine for a moment that the MP's husband would NOT have notified her immediate family?
Maybe an few hours after LE arrived, RT said - 'I called her son., & brother, all fam.' and maybe that afternoon LE saw no outgoing calls on RT's phone log.
Do we know exact day polygraph test was administered?
LE has experience w ppl not doing 'the right thing.' LE has to be open to possibilities other than every word-reporting-party-utters-is gospel-truth. LE knows they need to be skeptical about what reporting party says and does.
Depending on many factors, LE may not launch a full blast, all out homicide investigation on the spot, but must be open to that & other possibilities, inc. suicide or BT missing voluntarily.

He even went on TV - which is a big risk to take if the family has not even been notified yet.. But IIRC RT did not do TV interviews until a few (2 - 3? more?) days later after reporting her missing. W her brother & bro's fam in HK, and her son in Ind., and w RT being invisible/silent on soc media AFAIK, (and no mention of other fam of hers, that I've seen), maybe RT anticipated BT's fam would not find out for several days.
so who would've guessed that he had not yet done this?
Me, the immediate doubter. And LE. Not saying LE would immed. phone family that day, but by following LE MisPers procedure book (forgot name of pub, @PaulR cited it), LE would have fam contact info in hand, prob'ly on day one. Maybe call & ask Q's then or a few days later.
When her body was not found after days, or if things started NOT adding up, like say a lie detector test or story lines, or time lines, or whatever, *then* I can imagine and I hope that LE would follow up with other people BT knew, to see if there may be more to the story. imo
Timing. In MisPers cases, LE does not wait days for the other-possibilities light bulb to turn on. LE says, best chance to solve homicide is within first 24 hours of death (or 48 hours, there are a few variations).

jmo

 

[MsBetsy]

Thanks.

There's an incident in my family, and I won't go into specifics, where one family member was convinced that another family member got a lot of money from an inheritance, and I'm still not convinced it happened. People act really strange when it comes to inheritances - that doesn't just include killing but legal motions, people manipulating others into signing over everything to them, people claiming that others manipulated someone into signing everything over to them, believes that elderly people who are on Medicaid still have large bank accounts, etc.

In this case - the VI may be 100% honest about what they heard, but it also depends on their father's estranged brother being truthful, being correct about how much was in the estate, the nature of the asset and how it was evaluated (are we talking bags of money or mineral rights, etc.)

Also, it is very easy to live modestly and have substantial assets. In fact that's how most people get substantial assets. "The Millionaire Next Door" is a great book about this. At the very least it keeps you off the radar of potential thieves.

It's possible that Barbara inherited the money 10 or 15 years ago and much of it was used to buy their house, the RV, vacations, or just to live on.
Maybe that's why it seemed to the VI that she lived modestly. She may have felt uncomfortable talking about all the things they used the money for while her brothers didn't inherit any of it. Imo

 

[cazador]

It's possible that Barbara inherited the money 10 or 15 years ago and much of it was used to buy their house, the RV, vacations, or just to live on.
Maybe that's why it seemed to the VI that she lived modestly. She may have felt uncomfortable talking about all the things they used the money for while her brothers didn't inherit any of it. Imo

I understand money .. Compound Interest on millions ... They were living on that interest and the principle was most likely growing unless somebody was involved in gambling or other things that deteriorate the principle..

 

[katydid23]

You make some good points. Why did the VI's father learn about the inheritance from the estranged brother? Did Barb tell only the one brother? Strange.

We don't know that she only told one brother. Her other brother lives across the globe and is battling some health issues. He may well have known about the inheritance, but had not mentioned it to anyone, as he has been pretty quiet.

 

[katydid23]

I do think they planned to stop there. It's a well known trail, and it has more types of desert plants than anyplace else nearby. I'm also guessing they'd been there before but you're right, perhaps he or they researched that "cave" (apparently the one shown in the SAR pictures, at least that seems to be a viable assumption). Also, the boulders have several small access trails and do look very inviting.

I wish we knew where the panorama/360 photo was taken. It is indeed possible that they went on one walk, came back, then did another. That's not exactly what RT told the VI, IIRC, but perhaps RT didn't think the earlier walk significant?

Yes, I am dying to know more about that 360' photo. Where and when, exactly? And is that where he took the photo, which LE is using as 'proof of life' that day?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

We don't know that she only told one brother. Her other brother lives across the globe and is battling some health issues. He may well have known about the inheritance, but had not mentioned it to anyone, as he has been pretty quiet.

The VI said this.

according to my fathers estranged brother, barb inherited few million(s)? no confirmation on exact amount, but he made it sound like she was set for life after my grandma died.

So either the VI's own father knew about the inheritance and didn't tell his son about it leaving the estranged brother (uncle) to tell him or he didn't know.

I would think if the VI learned about it from his uncle he would have said "uncle" and not "estranged brother." JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes, I am dying to know more about that 360' photo. Where and when, exactly? And is that where he took the photo, which LE is using as 'proof of life' that day?

I thought it was Barbara that took the picture.
According to the VI, LE have all the photos taken that day, so I'm assuming the picture they told him that verified she was there was of Barbara herself.
But it does sound like the picture of the parking lot was taken earlier, but in a different location. Imo

 

[LietKynes]

Yes, I am dying to know more about that 360' photo. Where and when, exactly? And is that where he took the photo, which LE is using as 'proof of life' that day?

BBM
Ita.
Isn't that an understatement.
Better take a ticket... going to be a while.

I also would like to hear the 911 call.
Just to hear what was said ; and if it was matter-of-fact, or panicked ?
Imo.

 

[shanadk]

The fact that Barbara was planning to travel to Hong Kong within days is, to me, the red flag. Huge.
Someone may have thought she wasn't going to return.
Someone may have thought she was planning to help her family member financially, and disapproved.
Someone may have feared a loss of confidentiality.
Loss of money? Lack of control? Both?

 

[rosesfromangels]

The fact that Barbara was planning to travel to Hong Kong within days is, to me, the red flag. Huge.
Someone may have thought she wasn't going to return.
Someone may have thought she was planning to help her family member financially, and disapproved.
Someone may have feared a loss of confidentiality.
Loss of money? Lack of control? Both?

I agree, and have pointed out early on that the trip to HK May play a big part in this. I just don’t know what that is.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The fact that Barbara was planning to travel to Hong Kong within days is, to me, the red flag. Huge.
Someone may have thought she wasn't going to return.
Someone may have thought she was planning to help her family member financially, and disapproved.
Someone may have feared a loss of confidentiality.
Loss of money? Lack of control? Both?

Has the VI stated that his father is in financial need and BT was going to help with money?

Just because a person has health issues doesn't mean they have money problems.

I always got the impression that BT simply wanted to visit a brother she loves who happens to be ill. She visited him in the past when he wasn't ill if I recall correctly.

Interesting thoughts but no red flag for me. JMO

 

[?mysterian?]

The fact that Barbara was planning to travel to Hong Kong within days is, to me, the red flag. Huge.
Someone may have thought she wasn't going to return.
Someone may have thought she was planning to help her family member financially, and disapproved.
Someone may have feared a loss of confidentiality.
Loss of money? Lack of control? Both?

What about BT's pending trip to Hong Kong raises the red flag(s) for you? She had traveled there before, visited her family, and returned home to the U.S.

Per the U.S. Consulate to HK website: Visas for China and Elsewhere | U.S. Consulate General Hong Kong & Macau

"U.S. Citizens visiting Hong Kong for not more than three months/90 days are not required to obtain visas. While other territories in the region require a passport with six months of validity remaining, Hong Kong generally requires that visitors hold a U.S. passport valid for at least one month and evidence of adequate funds for their stay and onward transportation. Those wishing to stay in Hong Kong more than three months must obtain visas from a Chinese Embassy or Consulate. Visitors are not permitted to study or work (whether paid or not)."


It seems like visitors to HK are welcome for a determined length of time (less than 90 days) , and they must show evidence of "onward transportation". It seems like it would be very hard for a visitor from the U.S. to go to HK and not return without making additional arrangements and obtaining approval in advance. IMO.

 

[mickey2942]

I agree, and have pointed out early on that the trip to HK May play a big part in this. I just don’t know what that is.

Amateur opinion and speculation

The most dangerous time in a relationship for a woman is before she leaves.

 

[al66pine]

'She Was Simply Lost in the Desert.' What Did LE Believe?

We're talking about right away though. Police said there was no evidence of an abduction, and according to the nine or 10 day search, one would presume they believed she was simply lost in the desert at that time. Was there a need at that time to be investigating and asking all kinds of questions about her whereabouts preceding her disappearance? I guess it depends on whether or not they suspected something fishy from minute#1?

@deugirtni ^ bbm ibm Trying to follow line of thinking ^. IIRC, 8-9-10 days (last day of SAR team search or day before?) after MisPers report, LE publicly stated 'found no evidence of abduction.' So where did LE think she was?

What do you think LE believed re 'she was simply lost in the desert' on day 8-9-10?
1) Alive, still walking/mobile, within walking range, close enough to corroborate RT's stmt re location of their walk.
2) Alive, not mobile (exhausted, unconscious, or comatose), within walking range, close enough to corroborate RT's location stmt.
3) Not alive, within walking range, corroborating RT's location stmt.
4) Not alive, past walking range.
5) Other?

Did LE still believe she was alive after 8-9-10 days, when that time in those conditions is incompatible w human life?

 

[al66pine]

Strange Estrangements?

An unbiased opinion is that maybe LE thought RT would notify Barbara's family ? All it would have taken was for RT to contact the son and the son would've contacted the rest of the family. Just one person. Why didn't this happen ?

@LietKynes bbm sbm
Is it possible BT's son would not have contacted BT's brother or brother's fam in HK?
Some fam estrangements can run for years, even generations. I have no particular reason for it, just crossed my mind as a possibility.

 

[cazador]

The most dangerous time in a relationship for a woman is before she leaves.

ABSOLUTELY !!!!

Just look at last weeks news for plenty of evidence that this is Fact

 

[al66pine]

We have no idea about a pre-nup. I have reason to doubt that they did....

@10ofRods Can you share anything about the reason(s) for your doubt pls? Even if it not specific to RT & BT? I'm inclined to think couples in their circumstances do, based on
- ages.
- prior marriages.
- children from prior marriages.
- expectation of inheritance by one or both.
- presumably (or maybe umption on my part), some substantial prop/$ accumulated by one or the other or both.
jmo, could be all wrong.

 

[shanadk]

We cannot compare B's planned trip to her past trips.
The dynamics on the home front may have changed a great deal since then.
The mental health of certain persons may have been in decline since then. They may have anxiety or depression. We do not know; but I'm looking for motive.

 

[MsBetsy]

The most dangerous time in a relationship for a woman is before she leaves.

I think that pertains more to a woman who is trying to leave a relationship or the marriage, as opposed to going on a trip for a short time.
We don't have any evidence that there were problems in the marriage. The VI described them as being happy and in love, and that they argued and bickered but no more than other couples.
If there were problems in the marriage, apparently Barbara didn't tell anyone in her family about them.
Imo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

We cannot compare B's planned trip to her past trips.
The dynamics on the home front may have changed a great deal since then.
The mental health of certain persons may have been in decline since then. They may have anxiety or depression. We do not know; but I'm looking for motive.

As far as we know the personal dynamics have remained the same.

There could be all sorts of things that could show a motive for murder in this case.

Until we see some evidence that a murder took place it's hard for me to jump on board that BT was murdered by anyone. JMO.