CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #11

[LietKynes]

I appreciate your posts, you think like a scientist.

About the abduction- stranger things have happened and it reminds me of the case of the scientist in Greece. She was hit by the car to incapacitate her then driven elsewhere to be raped and killed. She was a 60 year old martial arts expert.

Suzanne Eaton

1/4 mile or 5-10 minutes ahead would be more than enough time to stop and grab someone and drive away undetected.

Of the three possibilities (lost, murdered, abducted) I put that one last but...

Whatever happened we don't have enough evidence to figure it out yet (and neither do the police).

I agree that it seems like, if she got lost, she would have found her way to the road or realized she was lost and back-tracked. However, there is a lot we don't know and the error bars around what we do know are large.

We don't know exactly how far away they were from each other, from the RV, or how long they were separated.

We don't know the time stamps on the pictures that were taken and if she appears in any of them.

We don't know if there were other hikers/campers nearby (none have come forward).

We don't know for sure if she knew where the RV was relative to where thy separated or if she could see it.

We don't know if her eyesight, or hearing is normal.

We don't know if she had 1 beer of 4 beers.

We don't know if they had an argument and she stormed off angry and perhaps not paying attention.

Ita; good post.
Absolutely we don't know any of these questions ; and some previous posts could add even more questions about that day.
But maybe someone knows ?
Possibly LE ?
Why there are so many theories.
And maybe why her case has lasted and resulted in so many threads.

 

[Hatfield]

Thanks for your reply. The VI did talk with one or two staff members at the kennel, as I understand it, and he spoke with the clerk at the gas station who interacted with RT. Sorry not to have the links handy to his posts discussing these contacts, but if you search dbdb11's posts, it should be possible to find them. IIRC, BT was said by one staff member to be "aggravated" at the kennel, and RT was described as "naggy" at the gas station--suggesting that they both were not in a good mood at the beginning of this trip.

So it seems they may have been arguing about something (or more than one thing) during the course of that day.

It has been speculated in this thread that when RT talked with LE and was told his polygraph was "deceptive," the reason could have been that he withheld comments about argument(s) prior to Barb's disappearance.

MOO

Interesting. Thanks so much.

I will try to read back to find the VI's posts about that. Maybe he/she will join us back soon. I do remember finding a few of their statements. It would be nice to be able to converse with them again here. Maybe they uncovered some recent updates they could share.

 

[anneg]

JMO
One other thing that I cant shake off about the statements he made, and from experience being on hilly open mountainous areas like that and being further up on the hill/mountain than the other person.

"He claimed that she had turned a corner"

Well, sorry but there is no real "corners" per se in my book. Sure, there are areas where a person below you can veer off and be hidden from view by a boulder or rock formation but there are usually no true corners per se. And when you are above a person like that then usually as soon as they walk a little further down they come into view again. The only time I could not see a person below me for any length of time was when the area we were in was heavily wooded. This area does not sound like it had many trees at all, but it did have lots of large boulders and those can inhibit view of someone below you. But usually not for very long if they continue to go down. If they go sideways then yeah they can stay hidden behind boulders but usually if they go downward they come right back into view once they clear the boulders.

So I struggle with the way that statement was phrased. Probably just semantics in wording.

Cops dismiss husband's claim that his bikini-clad wife who went missing during their hike was abducted

Yes, the reference to a corner is odd. It has been suggested that maybe she went out of his sight at a bend in a trail, but I wouldn't call that turning (or "rounding") a corner. MOO

ETA that @10ofRods posted about this a bit earlier this afternoon, see above.

 

[MsBetsy]

But that doesn’t sound like actually getting lost IMO; you could follow the road back to the RV. Even if you went the wrong way, it seems you’d eventually realize it and/or be spotted by a car. Unless you were somehow impaired, which is why I’ve wondered here a couple of times whether they were drinking more than just one beer that morning, or if they’re typically enthusiastic drinkers while they’re out and about.

I’m NOT saying BT was drinking to excess, but I do wonder. IF she was there that day, and IF she drinks while hiking, was there enough beer involved to impair judgment?

Getting totally lost and undetectable OR ABDUCTED in this locale and under the scenario RT describes seems IMO so very, very unlikely. So I question just about every reported detail.

Yes, if Barbara had taken that same path and ended up on the road, I'm sure she would have found the RV pretty easily.
The poster was just giving an example if how easy it is to take a wrong turn.
According to what others have said, the main trail is not clearly marked so if Barbara had made a wrong turn it likely would not have been a path leading to the road. It would probably be in a direction that would take her further into the desert, or possibly in a place where there may have been large rocks or crevices if she got injured or fell and has not been found yet. Imo

 

[PommyMommy]

Interesting. Thanks so much.

I will try to read back to find the VI's posts about that. Maybe he/she will join us back soon. I do remember finding a few of their statements. It would be nice to be able to converse with them again here. Maybe they uncovered some recent updates they could share.

Dog Kennel:

Barbara Thomas last seen 8:10 AM by staff at the Kennel where the dog is kept when they leave town.

Staff relayed Barb seemed aggravated and angry. Far from her usual friendly-self.

I didn't get a clothing description and didn't think to inquire.

Many people are asking what has become of Lexie and I don't have any clear answer. The kennel reports she is fine to the best of their knowledge.

Neighbors have only ever seen Barbara walk the dog. I should add, when she was walking the dog is the only time they ever saw Barbara without Robbie.

Gas Station/Convenience Store:

The attendant on the day spoke to me. Describes Robbie as naggy and said police have all surveillance footage. The attendant, Mike if I remember, also told me Robbie parked way out on the other side of the road. Walked in to the store in a very roundabout way, said something about not being able to get in and out of the truck without his wife's help, which made the attendant think he was implying a disability, and then practically jogged across the road and hopped in the truck, which struck Mike as very odd, and made him remember the encounter. RT only bought ice. Mike did not see Barb, but probably wouldn't have if they were parked across the road (context for the google earth photo). This happened around 9am.

There are more, of course, but I think these contain the main points. MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes, the reference to a corner is odd. It has been suggested that maybe she went out of his sight at a bend in a trail, but I wouldn't call that turning (or "rounding") a corner. MOO

ETA that @10ofRods posted about this a bit earlier this afternoon, see above.

Looking at the pictures posted of the huge rocks, it looks like it's possible that there are corners to go around, depending how the trail goes.
If the trail doesn't go through the rocks somehow, one might have to go around them. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Great post !
A good idea for those who live close enough -- to speak to the gas station employee and the dog kennel employees.
The more time passes, people are going to forget what was said or how people were acting.
Imo.

I'm pretty sure the VI has already spoken to both the gas station employee and the kennel staff. That's how he got the information about Barbara not seeming herself that morning.
In fact, he stated that Websleuths were the only ones who were investigating the kennel, and that LE had not been there to question them.
LE has never included the time she was there as part of the timeline. They have always said that the last place Barbara was seen was in the desert where RT last saw her.
So it may or may not be important to the investigation.
I'm sure they confirmed what time they left the house, (probably with the neighbor) and what time they stopped at the gas station in order to verify Robert's story. Imo

 

[Twistinginthewind]

If Barbara was taken off the road near Kelbaker Rd / Hidden Hills area by an abductor and driven to the nearest airport in Baker, CA, it would have been less than an hour drive, and she could have been put on a private plane or transported on the ground from the abductor's vehicle (via a van, box truck, vehicle with tinted windows without anyone seeing her struggling) anywhere from there.

Just thinking of possibilities on what an abductor would do with her if they kidnapped her from this very remote desolate area -- either go to the nearest city (Needles) or the nearest airport (Baker) to avail themselves of the resources needed to carry out the next phase of the kidnapping.

Driving to the nearest airport would certainly open up their options, as she could be held there and moved on a private plane or via other mode of transportation to somewhere else where she would be held, presumably for ransom.

Google Maps driving directions showing her home in Bullhead City, AZ, the area RT said they were walking when she went missing (off Kelbaker Rd), and the nearest airport in Baker, CA and the nearest city in Needles, CA, which are equidistant from where she went missing.

All within a 2 hour drive from their home. MOO.

 

[Curiousobserver]

If Barbara was taken off the road near Kelbaker Rd / Hidden Hills area by an abductor and driven to the nearest airport in Baker, CA, it would have been less than an hour drive, and she could have been put on a private plane or transported on the ground from the abductor's vehicle (via a van, box truck, vehicle with tinted windows without anyone seeing her struggling) anywhere from there.

Just thinking of possibilities on what an abductor would do with her if they kidnapped her from this very remote desolate area -- either go to the nearest city (Needles) or the nearest airport (Baker) to avail themselves of the resources needed to carry out the next phase of the kidnapping.

Driving to the nearest airport would certainly open up their options, as she could be held there and moved on a private plane or via other mode of transportation to somewhere else where she would be held, presumably for ransom.

Google Maps driving directions showing her home in Bullhead City, AZ, the area RT said they were walking when she went missing (off Kelbaker Rd), and the nearest airport in Baker, CA and the nearest city in Needles, CA, which are equidistant from where she went missing.

All within a 2 hour drive from their home. MOO.

Or take her to the nearest remote campsite which could have been only a few miles away. If she were even a few miles away from where they were looking they would have zero chance of finding her. I am not saying this is what happened but this COULD have happened and it HAS happened to other women her age in areas similarly desolate.

 

[10ofRods]

<modsnip>

1/4 Mile.

RT said he last saw his wife when she was 1/4 mile from the RV.

The RV was in sight. It was right over there. Barbara could see it.

They were not wandering, aimlessly in the vast desert as their mental acuities and physical well beings were disintegrating under the hot sun.

<modsnip: Telling other members what to say or do is not allowed>

Have you been out there? My claim is that there are TWO trails (at least) from which she could have seen the RV (intermittently, as the Wser said - who went out there since this case started). We don't know that they were really ¼ of a mile from the RV - people are notoriously bad at guessing time and distance.

There are two trails that intersect on the way back from the boulder formation. One of those has another intersection further on, two others head to the road - one is a short distance to the road, the other is a long distance to the road.

We do not know if Barbara was suffering from heat exhaustion. I have had it (and know several other people who have had it too, have talked to or interviewed several heat stroke survivors). The symptoms are very hard to detect, especially for the sufferer.

There is no way that the RV would be visible from all the various trails and there's no way of knowing which trail Barbara would have taken (both of the ones that lead to the road would have had the RV visible intermittently; I'll be going out there in a month or two to take a video, but I'm quite certain that the opposite side of Kelbaker (where the parking lot is) is not visible (even with a tall RV) from every single point along both of those branching trails. @Sroads mentions that the RV-sized trailer that LE had was visible most but not all of the time. If for any reason, Barbara took a true wrong turn at that intersection, and briefly headed in the wrong direction (assuming no heat exhaustion at all), when coming back to correct her mistake, she had two choices (and I'm betting that the RV was not visible from either of those trails because I've studied a topo map and the trail intersection is at a low point in the area, that's why there is way more foliage there).

In the desert, you can tell where the lower areas are by observing evidence of water flow and by observing evidence of plant life. You can see it on Google map, but that RV would certainly have been visible from the trail they initially took part of the time. I'll bet an entire box of donuts or bagels that it was not visible from the 4 way intersection of two trails.

Further, if Barbara could not find the key and was serious about using the restroom, she might have headed in yet another direction because, although many people are okay peeing right in full view of traffic, many of us are not, especially not in her age group (which is also my age group). It isn't just age. My daughters would seek cover and so would ever man in our family as well. Peeing at the side of the road is not something any friend I have would do either.

So she could have crossed back over the road to head for some trees near the wash or she could have walked up HH and then into the less cholla-filled area that's there.

We don't know. I will not stop considering that she could be lost out there. Especially if she had started into heat exhaustion. People do not just suddenly collapse from heat exhaustion, it's usually an hours-long process and has stages.

 

[Cherwell]

The thought was maybe they had an argument near where he wanted to take pictures. It seems a likely place if an argument ensued because that is where he says they separated. She may have been ready to leave and he may have wanted to stay and maybe a serious argument occurred where she purposely left him and went to the cave to stay away from him for a bit. Or maybe she was so mad she just went to the road and flagged down the first person that could get her out of there. Now if an argument was serious enough he may have even got back to the RV and drove off to leave her there to purposely make her worry he really left, with his intentions to come back a little later and when he got back she may have been gone. She may have flagged down a stranger thinking he wasnt coming back.
Now here is why I think that is not likely. Because he would have lied to police and left out the whole argument thing and then if she did turn up in the days afterward then he would have some serious explaining to do to LE about why he lied about the events that day near the rocky hills in the desert.

I do think it's very very plausible that they had an argument. I also think that it would be quite natural not to want to mention it to the media or to her family.

However, if they did indeed part company on bad terms I think he would have come clean to the police about it. He might not have disclosed this straightaway - and that may have shown up on the polygraph - but I think he would have realised before long that it was wiser to give them the full picture, for the reasons you give.

 

[MsBetsy]

I appreciate your posts, you think like a scientist.

About the abduction- stranger things have happened and it reminds me of the case of the scientist in Greece. She was hit by the car to incapacitate her then driven elsewhere to be raped and killed. She was a 60 year old martial arts expert.

Suzanne Eaton

1/4 mile or 5-10 minutes ahead would be more than enough time to stop and grab someone and drive away undetected.

Of the three possibilities (lost, murdered, abducted) I put that one last but...

Whatever happened we don't have enough evidence to figure it out yet (and neither do the police).

I agree that it seems like, if she got lost, she would have found her way to the road or realized she was lost and back-tracked. However, there is a lot we don't know and the error bars around what we do know are large.

We don't know exactly how far away they were from each other, from the RV, or how long they were separated.

We don't know the time stamps on the pictures that were taken and if she appears in any of them.

We don't know if there were other hikers/campers nearby (none have come forward).

We don't know for sure if she knew where the RV was relative to where thy separated or if she could see it.

We don't know if her eyesight, or hearing is normal.

We don't know if she had 1 beer of 4 beers.

We don't know if they had an argument and she stormed off angry and perhaps not paying attention.

Well, I would think and trust that the OP thinks like a scientist, since 10ofRods is an anthropologist!

<modsnip>

It's no more unlikely that Barbara became disoriented or lost, or injured, than she was kidnapped or murdered.
In fact, it would be much more disturbing if she had met with foul play. Nobody wants to think that someone would cause harm to their loved ones. The VI has stated as much.

At this point there is no clear evidence that Barbara met with foul play, was abducted, lost, or murdered.

No-one knows what happened to her, and LE may not know until they find a body. They may never find her, and we may never know the truth of what happened.

I hope they do find her, though, and her family will soon have some answers.

Imo

 

[PaulR]

Here is the central problem with the idea that BT couldn't have gotten lost.

Every hiker starts their hike at a known location, the trailhead. From there they hike until they reach their destination and hike back, along a trail. Of course trails aren't generally paved, with signposts every few feet making sure you are on the trail. So you keep hiking along the path - and then, the path ends. But not where you are supposed to end up. Maybe you followed a game trail, maybe you followed a wash. In any case, you are now lost.

You don't figure this out within sight of the parking lot (otherwise you wouldn't be lost, you'd just make your way there.) You don't even figure it out within sight of the actual trail (otherwise you'd just turn around and walk 20 feet.) You figure this out long after you don't see the trail, long after the parking lot has vanished over the horizon. If that's the case, you're not really lost.

If you are lucky, you figure this out in time to at least retrace your steps - assuming you can, remember what you've been following for the last mile or two may not be easy to follow back, maybe there's another branch and you don't know whether to go north or east. Maybe it's getting dark and you didn't bring a flashlight with you.

So to say "well, BT would have seen the parking lot from the trail, or from a given location" isn't relevant because she obviously wasn't there, otherwise she wasn't lost.

So to state that BT couldn't have gotten lost is to effectively state that hikers in general cannot get lost.

Which is wrong. Hikers do get lost, thousands each year. They get lost in the forest, they get lost in the mountains, they get lost in the desert too.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Or take her to the nearest remote campsite which could have been only a few miles away. If she were even a few miles away from where they were looking they would have zero chance of finding her. I am not saying this is what happened but this COULD have happened and it HAS happened to other women her age in areas similarly desolate.

Sure, that's another possibility, Curiousobserver, abductor(s) taking her to a remote campsite nearby but far enough away out of sight from the road and the search area.

IMO, the disadvantage of that type of location to hold her is that they would risk being seen by someone nearby and stick out in an otherwise desolate, unpopulated area, and wouldn't have a lot of readily available resources on hand without preplanning to be self sufficiently living in the desert.

IMO, the advantage of taking her to a location like the nearest airport or a city, is that they could hide out amongst a bunch of other people/places and not stick out, at the same time positioning themselves to move her further away from where she went missing.

I haven't heard of this happening to other women her age in similarly desolate areas, sounds like a really scary setup / gives me the chills, and I hope for goodness sake that this isn't what happened to Barbara.

It's been 3 months now without any word on a ransom request, so what happened to Barbara if she was abducted "for money"?

MOO

 

[MsBetsy]

Have agreed and will continue to do so about the arm- waving.
It makes sense if the person you're trying to reach is in your line of sight.

Eta. : Not going to perpetuate any absurd theories.

I think it does make more sense to wave if someone is in your line of sight.

But then again, not everything everybody does makes sense.

Maybe the visibility in the desert was not that clear, maybe one of them had poor eyesight so he thought waving might help her to see him better, (it's easier to see something moving than something still) maybe in his panic he just decided to wave his arms. Not everyone can think straight in a crisis.

At any rate, it certainly is not evidence that he isn't being truthful. He has never changed his story, and for all we know he still believes Barbara was kidnapped and taken to Vegas.

Imo

 

[anneg]

Dog Kennel:

Gas Station/Convenience Store:

There are more, of course, but I think these contain the main points. MOO

Many thanks, PommyMommy, for posting these quotes!

 

[MsBetsy]

LBM

Thanks, I didn't realize his daughter agreed about the abduction.
Maybe that explains no further actions or pleas via the media to find Barbara ?
So it explains the silence.
A reward can sometimes get results , so it's a possibility.
There's still time to offer a reward to result in the abductor's capture.

Or has the media not allowed them any more interviews ?
Not everyone gets the coverage they're asking for, so there's always that.

Yes, his daughter stated that in an interview in the very beginning, but we haven't heard anything else since.
Even Barbara's son seemed to believe there was some kidnapping scheme related to a company that RT was involved in. This is probably why he stated that he wished RT would tell LE what he knows.

At one time the VI said that LE were following up on leads, and I suspect many of these leads were provided by her son. He did say that he was working closely with investigators.
Whether or not any information he provided was useful, we can't know, but I'm guessing it did not lead to anything substantial.
At any rate, other members of the family do seem to believe there was some sort of kidnapping, including RT himself.
The difference is that the family believes he may have been involved, or at least knows something about it.
Which is understandable since he himself was first to suggest it.

Imo

 

[LietKynes]

Yes, if Barbara had taken that same path and ended up on the road, I'm sure she would have found the RV pretty easily.
The poster was just giving an example if how easy it is to take a wrong turn.
According to what others have said, the main trail is not clearly marked so if Barbara had made a wrong turn it likely would not have been a path leading to the road. It would probably be in a direction that would take her further into the desert, or possibly in a place where there may have been large rocks or crevices if she got injured or fell and has not been found yet. Imo

LBM

Re. the bolded : That's a valid speculation; if she fell into a confined space.
And just hasn't been discovered yet.
Sad as that would be; it's preferable to someone harming her intentionally.

I'm pretty sure the VI has already spoken to both the gas station employee and the kennel staff. That's how he got the information about Barbara not seeming herself that morning.
In fact, he stated that Websleuths were the only ones who were investigating the kennel, and that LE had not been there to question them.
LE has never included the time she was there as part of the timeline. They have always said that the last place Barbara was seen was in the desert where RT last saw her.
So it may or may not be important to the investigation.
I'm sure they confirmed what time they left the house, (probably with the neighbor) and what time they stopped at the gas station in order to verify Robert's story. Imo

LBM

Agreed.

The VI says LE feel they have confirmation she was def. out there somewhere in the desert location that day, and that the VI says there's photographic evidence ; which he hasn't been shown.
The public want to see those photos, or at least one of them; but LE don't have to reveal everything to us, regardless if it's a missing person's case or a different scenario.
And some like to keep their private lives private. No problem with that.

LE themselves haven't made it clear to the public that that was the last place she was seen.
Although their thorough search in the Kelbaker area and surrounding would indicate they consider the photo they were shown to be valid.

Also the kennel sighting may or may not be important to LE ; Imo.

I think it does make more sense to wave if someone is in your line of sight.

But then again, not everything everybody does makes sense.

Maybe the visibility in the desert was not that clear, maybe one of them had poor eyesight so he thought waving might help her to see him better, (it's easier to see something moving than something still) maybe in his panic he just decided to wave his arms. Not everyone can think straight in a crisis.

At any rate, it certainly is not evidence that he isn't being truthful. He has never changed his story, and for all we know he still believes Barbara was kidnapped and taken to Vegas.

Imo

LBM

There's different ways of looking at this, so not totally disagreeing.
I enjoy reading your posts, @MsBetsy !
Just pondering other scenarios.

When the VI's sister was told that she went missing around noon when the emergency call was made; and later LE claimed the call came in at 3:36pm., some would consider that a change of a story.
But could've been nothing more than miscommunication from either the VI' sister or RT himself . Nothing wrong there ; just a slight change.

But this is a possibility .. what if the 911 call location was in error ?
So the call could've come in at any time and was misunderstood ?
That the operator was at fault and simply forgot to log in the correct time ; it must happen sometimes.
That poor lady who drowned in her car and her 911 call was grossly mishandled --what if that happened to RT ?
Not impossible-- as I've never heard such a callous performance as the 911 operator who answered the drowning woman's frantic pleas.
MOO

 

[10ofRods]

Or take her to the nearest remote campsite which could have been only a few miles away. If she were even a few miles away from where they were looking they would have zero chance of finding her. I am not saying this is what happened but this COULD have happened and it HAS happened to other women her age in areas similarly desolate.

There seem to be at least two kinds of possible kidnappings (if any kidnapping occurred). One would be a stranger abduction and the other would involve people known to her (or known to people who know her).

Older women are raped, older women are kidnapped (there are quite a few of those cases in the podcast realm).

Yermo, CA (pop. 1750) has 16 registered sex offenders. 1 in about 110? Just driving around is a prime hobby out there. People from south of Mojave NP use the road to drive to work in Vegas. The desert has a lot of people who are trying to lay low. Vegas employs a lot of people who might not find easy employment elsewhere.

However, there do not seem to be any other rape/kidnappings in the entire county for the past year, or even three years. It would be a very rare crime.

 

[LietKynes]

Here is the central problem with the idea that BT couldn't have gotten lost.

Every hiker starts their hike at a known location, the trailhead. From there they hike until they reach their destination and hike back, along a trail. Of course trails aren't generally paved, with signposts every few feet making sure you are on the trail. So you keep hiking along the path - and then, the path ends. But not where you are supposed to end up. Maybe you followed a game trail, maybe you followed a wash. In any case, you are now lost.

You don't figure this out within sight of the parking lot (otherwise you wouldn't be lost, you'd just make your way there.) You don't even figure it out within sight of the actual trail (otherwise you'd just turn around and walk 20 feet.) You figure this out long after you don't see the trail, long after the parking lot has vanished over the horizon. If that's the case, you're not really lost.

If you are lucky, you figure this out in time to at least retrace your steps - assuming you can, remember what you've been following for the last mile or two may not be easy to follow back, maybe there's another branch and you don't know whether to go north or east. Maybe it's getting dark and you didn't bring a flashlight with you.

So to say "well, BT would have seen the parking lot from the trail, or from a given location" isn't relevant because she obviously wasn't there, otherwise she wasn't lost.

So to state that BT couldn't have gotten lost is to effectively state that hikers in general cannot get lost.

Which is wrong. Hikers do get lost, thousands each year. They get lost in the forest, they get lost in the mountains, they get lost in the desert too.

LBM
Ita.
Yes, many other hikers do become lost every year-- even the most experienced ones.