CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #11

[cazador]

For perspective.. How could this happen .. The same question RT is asking himself She Left to Use the Restroom at LACMA and Never Returned. What Happened to Nancy Paulikas?

 

[rosesfromangels]

For perspective.. How could this happen .. The same question RT is asking himself She Left to Use the Restroom at LACMA and Never Returned. What Happened to Nancy Paulikas?

Several good points by contrast Cazador.
The devotion this husband exhibited illustrates what real love looks like.

I've seen people act in all sorts of ways when they lose a spouse. Some grieve for the rest of their lives and honor their loved one by remaining widowed/single, some remarry in a short period of time - seemingly unable to be alone.

This article does raise a question we haven't really discussed; was BT showing any signs of dementia? 69 would be early-ish for that type of onset, but not unheard of. Dementia patients are notorious wanderers, and do end up passing all too frequently from exposure to the elements.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[CSIDreamer]

Info on early onset dementia. I see no reason to believe Barbara was suffering, otherwise why a solo trip to Hong Kong?

Early-onset Alzheimer's: When symptoms begin before age 65 - Mayo Clinic When Alzheimer's symptoms start before age 65

 

[Gardener1850]

For perspective.. How could this happen .. The same question RT is asking himself She Left to Use the Restroom at LACMA and Never Returned. What Happened to Nancy Paulikas?

We have a thread for Nancy here: Found Deceased - CA - Nancy Paulikas, 55, Los Angeles, 15 Oct 2016
I followed that case. She was seen on CCTV walking away from the museum and they still don't really know what happened to her or how she ended up 10 miles away from the museum. I don't think much can be taken from Nancy's case to apply to this one (given the difference of environment/circumstances) other than someone leaving on foot can end up much farther away than expected. MOO.

 

[rosesfromangels]

We have a thread for Nancy here: Found Deceased - CA - Nancy Paulikas, 55, Los Angeles, 15 Oct 2016
I followed that case. She was seen on CCTV walking away from the museum and they still don't really know what happened to her or how she ended up 10 miles away from the museum. I don't think much can be taken from Nancy's case to apply to this one (given the difference of environment/circumstances) other than someone leaving on foot can end up much farther away than expected. MOO.

Well, if I am reading our friend Cazador right, he also wanted to showcase the Herculean efforts that Nancy’s husband went to in contrast to RT’s (outward) efforts to find BT.
of course that is just my own interpretation

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Years ago my grandfather left on a trip in his motorhome from Sacramento to visit family in Saskatchewan Canada.

My father got a call from Salt Lake City police informing him that grandpa was acting irrationally and was very upset. He kept repeating to them that his wife was dead. My grandmother died 15 years before this.

My father flew to SLC and brought grandpa home. He was around 70 years old when this happen. This was when he was diagnosed with alzheimer's disease.

 

[cazador]

We have a current case in the San Francisco bay area city of Belmont.. Paul Farmer ..Dementia, 84 years old .. a person got a pic of him walking... Hundreds have looked for him.. Disappeared in a high density populated area..

I have not seen any reports of Barbara suffering from anything .. But who really knows..
They do wander and can walk for a long ways..

 

[cazador]

Well, if I am reading our friend Cazador right, he also wanted to showcase the Herculean efforts that Nancy’s husband went to in contrast to RT’s (outward) efforts to find BT.
of course that is just my own interpretation

amateur opinion and speculation

Not comparing .. just noting that even when lots of people come in to help, its not always a success.

 

[Cherwell]

Not comparing .. just noting that even when lots of people come in to help, its not always a success.

No, sadly; and when someone disappears in a town or city, the chance of finding clues must be higher, be it from people who may have seen the person, or camera footage. In unpopulated countryside, not so much.

 

[al66pine]

Mineshaft Locations, Searches.
Seems I'm missing something in this mineshaft location discussion.
Not saying RT is not knowledgeable about mineshafts' locations. Just saying ---
---No mineshafts nearby/in the vicinity/etc., his terms are vague. 1/4 mi, 1/2 mi, 5 mi, 20 mi?
--- Without map/GPS info in front of RT & us, and not being able to see where RT pinpoints mineshaft locations, are his stmts useful in guiding searches? IDK.
--- Ultimately if searchers start at the turnout and use his stmts re walk location, won't searchers have to cover whatever area possible without regard for what RT says re mineshaft locations?
Again, probably missing/misinterpreting something.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Jenz @Cherwell @10ofRods and Others
From 10ofRods:
"...The reason there are no mines nearby is that there is granite bedrock, so I agree with RT that there would be no mineshifts in the near vicinity..."
From Post 1003 by Jenz:
"....RT's knowledge of where or where not there are mineshafts? Maybe his hiking experience?
Response:
From Post 1004 by Cherwell:
Since they go out to the desert frequently, they've probably often pored over maps looking for places of interest, and read up on same.
^bbm sbm ^
IIRC, RT's knowledge re mineshaft locations originated w his own claim on the subject, in ---
A stmt made in w his tele-con w BR's family member (brother?) in HK.
Who then repeated to our VI @dbdb11,
Then our VI posted about it here.
For us to discuss.
Which may guide searches?
Just wondering.

 

[MsBetsy]

Mineshaft Locations, Searches.
Seems I'm missing something in this mineshaft location discussion.
Not saying RT is not knowledgeable about mineshafts' locations. Just saying ---
---No mineshafts nearby/in the vicinity/etc., his terms are vague. 1/4 mi, 1/2 mi, 5 mi, 20 mi?
--- Without map/GPS info in front of RT & us, and not being able to see where RT pinpoints mineshaft locations, are his stmts useful in guiding searches? IDK.
--- Ultimately if searchers start at the turnout and use his stmts re walk location, won't searchers have to cover whatever area possible without regard for what RT says re mineshaft locations?
Again, probably missing/misinterpreting something.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Jenz @Cherwell @10ofRods and Others
From 10ofRods:
"...The reason there are no mines nearby is that there is granite bedrock, so I agree with RT that there would be no mineshifts in the near vicinity..."
From Post 1003 by Jenz:
"....RT's knowledge of where or where not there are mineshafts? Maybe his hiking experience?
Response:
From Post 1004 by Cherwell:
Since they go out to the desert frequently, they've probably often pored over maps looking for places of interest, and read up on same.
^bbm sbm ^
IIRC, RT's knowledge re mineshaft locations originated w his own claim on the subject, in ---
A stmt made in w his tele-con w BR's family member (brother?) in HK.
Who then repeated to our VI @dbdb11,
Then our VI posted about it here.
For us to discuss.
Which may guide searches?
Just wondering.

I don't think the mines have anything to do with searching.
From what I gathered some posters were wondering why he said there were no mines in the area when there are thousands in the area of Needles.
So I think he meant in the area where they were hiking.
There was a map posted in this thread showing where all the mines are.
There don't seem to be any within 4-5 miles but you can look at it to see where they are located. (someone pointed out that there are some that are undiscovered)
So it does not seem likely that Barbara could have wandered that far and fallen into a mineshaft.
I guess its possible, though.
Stranger things have happened.

Imo

 

[Cherwell]

Mineshaft Locations, Searches.
Seems I'm missing something in this mineshaft location discussion.
Not saying RT is not knowledgeable about mineshafts' locations. Just saying ---
---No mineshafts nearby/in the vicinity/etc., his terms are vague. 1/4 mi, 1/2 mi, 5 mi, 20 mi?
--- Without map/GPS info in front of RT & us, and not being able to see where RT pinpoints mineshaft locations, are his stmts useful in guiding searches? IDK.
--- Ultimately if searchers start at the turnout and use his stmts re walk location, won't searchers have to cover whatever area possible without regard for what RT says re mineshaft locations?
Again, probably missing/misinterpreting something.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Jenz @Cherwell @10ofRods and Others
From 10ofRods:
"...The reason there are no mines nearby is that there is granite bedrock, so I agree with RT that there would be no mineshifts in the near vicinity..."
From Post 1003 by Jenz:
"....RT's knowledge of where or where not there are mineshafts? Maybe his hiking experience?
Response:
From Post 1004 by Cherwell:
Since they go out to the desert frequently, they've probably often pored over maps looking for places of interest, and read up on same.
^bbm sbm ^
IIRC, RT's knowledge re mineshaft locations originated w his own claim on the subject, in ---
A stmt made in w his tele-con w BR's family member (brother?) in HK.
Who then repeated to our VI @dbdb11,
Then our VI posted about it here.
For us to discuss.
Which may guide searches?
Just wondering.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at. What claim? According to the VI the conversation about mineshafts amounted to very little:

”Robbie told me there were no mines in the area when I last spoke to him two weeks ago. He described the earth as unfit for mining. Don't remember how he described it exactly, but he made it sound like he knew what he was talking about, including the general geology of the area.”

@10ofRods has confirmed this with the explanation that it's granite bedrock in the area where Barbara went missing, and that this is obvious when one goes there.

 

[Penny4YourThoughts]

It's heart-warming that without much to go on Barbara's thread keeps growing <3.
Nice work, WSers, keep it up. I'll be bouncing around to lighter threads in hopes they grow like Barbara's!

 

[10ofRods]

As to dementia, symptoms can be subtle and people can appear fairly normal while still in their same environment.

When I worked in inpatient psychiatric hospitals in the San Francisco Bay area, we had some solo travelers admitted with dementia-like symptoms (and other solo travelers who were manic). Sometimes just getting outside of their regular routine would worsen symptoms dramatically. If there's a brain insult (such as a new drug, even antibiotics, or, say heat) the symptoms can come on pretty abruptly and may not completely subside after the drug is withdrawn or the brain is cooled down. It's possible Barbara had (fairly) early onset Alzheimer's. It has crossed my mind. One doctor told me that it can appear sudden to family members, but also that in the elderly, symptoms can appear to onset 'overnight' due to new meds, emotional upset, fever, illness, etc.

My dad had this happen (although he was very old) due to prescribed antibiotics (literally overnight, he went from typically very lucid to completely confused about where he was, who people were, etc).

To me, this theory is stronger than the abduction theory (but of course, there are other theories as well).

 

[anneg]

For perspective.. How could this happen .. The same question RT is asking himself She Left to Use the Restroom at LACMA and Never Returned. What Happened to Nancy Paulikas?

Thank you for this article. It's a fascinating and well-written story--and what an amazing search process by her husband and all those friends and volunteers who helped! How she ended up where she did remains a mystery, but at least Nancy's remains were eventually found. I will have to check out the Websleuths thread on her.

 

[Kapua]

It's pretty obvious when there's granite around (there are granite peaks/mountains on this walk, even an amateur geologist would notice it, most of us who love the outdoors can recognize granite; it has to be underfoot if it's poking up out of the ground). In fact, there's a lot of granite under the Mojave, which is why the Mojave River can flow under ground the way it does. I don't know when I learned that, but it seems to me I've known it all my life (we would travel through the Mojave to see my dad's family every year, and when I was really young, out to see my mom's family and where my mom first lived in California).

Anyway, trails like the Granite Peak trail would not be cleaned and supported by the Preserve if there were open or available mining shafts there. This trail is on a main paved road, it's used all the time.

I'm guessing that RT would know more about it, due to the fact that some of the mines can be found and people hike to them, sometimes equipped to go inside, often hoping to find stuff. I know people who collect old mining tools and equipment who go out there. There are rock hounds in every desert community and usually rock shops, and the rock hounds frequently go to mining areas. I've been to the Arizona Rock Shop (30 minutes from where Barbara lived) many times and talked to the owner and to other rock collectors about where they find stuff. It's one of the few things worth stopping for (and it's at higher altitude that BHC, which is so hot most of the year).

Anyway, they had been out there before (which is why there's been so much discussion of whether Barbara's picture was from that day or not), and Barbara was a rock collector. It would be strange to me if they didn't have an overall map in their heads about where mines/rock collecting opportunities were, and actual caves, as well.

I read up on mines in the Mojave desert. While it's true that there are several mines in the vast Mojave desert, as far as I can tell, there really are none in the area where BT went missing, nor anywhere near that location. (It was interesting reading. There were gold, silver, tungsten, magnesite, and one pumicite mine called the "Old Dutch Cleanser Mine".) Desert Mines & Mills
Also, none of these mines appear to be easy walking distance from a paved road.
So I am not a fan of the fell (or was pushed) into a mine shaft theory. OT, I went to a benitoite mine with a friend last year and had a great time looking for benitoite. I found one rock that just sparkled with the pretty blue crystals. So fun!

 

[al66pine]

I don't understand what you're trying to get at. What claim? According to the VI the conversation about mineshafts amounted to very little:
”Robbie told me there were no mines in the area when I last spoke to him two weeks ago. He described the earth as unfit for mining. Don't remember how he described it exactly, but he made it sound like he knew what he was talking about, including the general geology of the area.”
@10ofRods has confirmed this with the explanation that it's granite bedrock in the area where Barbara went missing, and that this is obvious when one goes there.

@Cherwell Thanks for your post. From my earlier post:
"Mineshaft Locations, Searches. ...probably missing/misinterpreting something"

And I was ^. Cherwell, thanks for clarification."

 

[Cherwell]

As to dementia, symptoms can be subtle and people can appear fairly normal while still in their same environment.

When I worked in inpatient psychiatric hospitals in the San Francisco Bay area, we had some solo travelers admitted with dementia-like symptoms (and other solo travelers who were manic). Sometimes just getting outside of their regular routine would worsen symptoms dramatically. If there's a brain insult (such as a new drug, even antibiotics, or, say heat) the symptoms can come on pretty abruptly and may not completely subside after the drug is withdrawn or the brain is cooled down. It's possible Barbara had (fairly) early onset Alzheimer's. It has crossed my mind. One doctor told me that it can appear sudden to family members, but also that in the elderly, symptoms can appear to onset 'overnight' due to new meds, emotional upset, fever, illness, etc.

My dad had this happen (although he was very old) due to prescribed antibiotics (literally overnight, he went from typically very lucid to completely confused about where he was, who people were, etc).

To me, this theory is stronger than the abduction theory (but of course, there are other theories as well).

I hadn't considered this in reference to Barbara, but I have some experience of what you say. My elderly neighbour had a "funny turn" one day, and in very familiar surroundings started driving on the wrong side of the road. He was rescued by the police and found to be very confused, asking them to phone his daughter (he didn't have any children) ... you get the picture. He was perfectly lucid when checked over by a doctor the following day, but his car keys were confiscated!

 

[squareandrabbet]

Has SBSD "Ruled Out'"Foul Play?

Another member posted this: "LE have also ruled out an abduction -- in their own words -- they said they don't have 'evidence of an abduction'"

In response, at Post 990, the wonderfully patient, always kind, and infinitely wise SillyBilly Moderator & Administrator, responded:
"Not finding evidence of something is not the same as ruling it out. To my knowledge, LE has not "ruled out" anything at this time.

I could come home and find my precious gold widget has disappeared from my home ... door unlocked, no forced entry, no footprints, no fingerprints, no video, etc. There is just no evidence; doesn't mean it didn't disappear or that someone didn't take it."

^ Not just my opinion.^

Yeah, I'm 200% with SillyBilly on this one. "No evidence that a crime has been committed" is hair-splitting precision police-speak. They also haven't found any evidence that a crime hasn't been committed. LE knows they can't run around willy-nilly accusing people of being suspects in the media whatever RT has said, because they run the risk of a libel lawsuit; and I doubt they did. I think RT paraphrased whatever LE said to him directly into "prime suspect".

 

[MsBetsy]

Yeah, I'm 200% with SillyBilly on this one. "No evidence that a crime has been committed" is hair-splitting precision police-speak. They also haven't found any evidence that a crime hasn't been committed. LE knows they can't run around willy-nilly accusing people of being suspects in the media whatever RT has said, because they run the risk of a libel lawsuit; and I doubt they did. I think RT paraphrased whatever LE said to him directly into "prime suspect".

Yes, the only thing we have to go by are what LE has said publicly and what he the VI has said they told him.
And so far they only told him two things.

They confirmed that they have pictures of Barbara showing that she was there.

The only other thing I remember that LE said to him was that just because someone acts suspicious does not mean he is a murderer.

Ironically, the only one who has made any statements that cast suspicion on Robert is Robert himself.

Well, and of course Barbara's son who has been found not to be a reliable source. Which is unfortunate because we had to go back and reconsider everything he told the VI.

Imo