CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

[10ofRods]

Duplicate.

 

[10ofRods]

Ita.
Not only was Barbara on a clear trail, it was bordered closely by thick Cholla cactus growth.
Even if she felt dizzy-- the pain of those cacti would've kept her from wandering very far.
Per the photos by sroad and others; which has been so helpful in understanding what a clearly marked path Barbara was on.
And we still don't know if she was actually drinking beer or even if she had a beer container in her hand.
There's never been any proof that she was drinking.
Possibly a drone search could help if any clues can be found that lead to where Barbara actually IS.
Keeping up hope for her nephew, son, and siblings.
They loved her so much !

Her "clear trail" intersected with at least one other, where she had two equally passable options (that's taking the most optimistic view of where RT and BT separated). We do not know which trail she was on. The search clearly moved along 2 different trails. But there are some other trails (if she made a mistake at the intersection). Eventually, both of the main trails hit the road, but at two different places (one with the RV, one without).

I view statements by witnesses as evidence. A good drone search would certainly help. The area on the other side of Kelbaker (where presumably, she was headed in any scenario) is huge, it isn't bounded by cholla or by big rocks, and there's actually a road with several more trails/places to walk.

If Barbara, already more compromised than either of them realize (and perhaps, RT is too - like those people in Zuma Canyon this year) starts off walking fast (I wish we knew her speed), I often ponder how far she'd get before she realized she was on the wrong trail. If she were fully functioning, mentally, she'd notice that she was parallel to the road within 10 minutes (at least one car would come by, I'd think). She should already be at the RV.

What does she do then? What if she's now a bit distressed? Or a lot distressed?

Does she retrace her steps (and does she remember not to take tiny trails/traces until she gets to that bigger intersection)? Does she look for a suitable place (without sharp things) to use for toileting? Does she decide to cut over to the road and walk along it? Does she not get lost at all, but makes it to the RV and can't get inside? Does she then walk down Hidden Hills (lots of discreet places to go behind a bush and not so many prickles). Virtually no traffic on Hidden Hills.

A person can get themselves a little lost in 15 minutes; a lot lost in just a bit more. But, if Barb had been hydrated and healthy even after 2 hours of hiking in 100° heat...she'd have heard the traffic on Kelbaker road and gone toward it. She would have been able to see the road from the Granite Hills Side, perhaps not so much from the Kelbaker side.

So I keep pondering whether she really might have collapsed. The Zuma man was from a very warm area in SoCal but collapsed while in 90-95° heat, on a hike with 5 other people. Just this last summer, after Barbara disappeared. He was perceived by his companions as fine one minute (but two of them would collapse before making it to the trailhead, IIRC). He was 65 years old (maybe a bit younger, I'll try to check) and considered healthy and fit.

He died before they could get help to him.

If she did collapse, it was not within the main area of trail(s) near the Granite Mountains.

People think they're drinking enough water, but aren't, etc. But where is she? Drones definitely would help on the Kelbaker side at this point (and also just north of the creek bed where RT apparently went to take photos).

 

[10ofRods]

Might I say "the Mad Scientist" is not so "Mad"
Why would one park at a Red Roof Inn ACROSS the street from the gas station !
To establish a timeline corroborated by what He tells the Chevron worker " his wife is alive and well in his truck across the street" Convenient ? You bet. Establish she was still alive and well and in her underwear before they got to the hiking trail.

I believe LE knows exactly what is going on but does not have enough evidence to bring an arrest.
If in 5 months they have not found her alive or dead than there is a good chance she may have been put on Ice before any more Ice was needed .

To answer your first question, people with 5th wheels do this to avoid having to try and either make a U or several turns to get back in their direction of travel.

RT was not quoted to have said he "needed assistance in and out of the truck." It was a vague quote to begin with, but the attendant said he mentioned he needed his wife's assistance to get in and out of the store/gas station area - which (MOO) to me it means: too tight for him to park such a long vehicle, he'd have needed help getting in and out with the truck - so he was explaining why he left his truck across the street. He mentioned that she was in the car so that the attendant would serve him quickly, because regardless of A/C when a car is stationary in that heat, it starts to get warm in the cab.

Now...that doesn't mean Barb was in the truck. Just saying I see nothing suspicious about her staying in the truck and him running in for the (much desired?) ice.

 

[Kapua]

I’m afraid I must be misunderstanding something here. Can you explain why the 9:00 a.m. timestamp at the Chevron means that there is no chance BT was along at that point. If they left home as late as 8:30 (not impossible AFAIK) and it takes 30 minutes to get to the Chevron, why wouldn’t BT be there? #feelingdense

I can't answer for the OP, but IIRC, BT was not seen on the Chevron/convenience store's video - which, IMHO, does not mean that she was not there, and also IMHO, does not mean that there is "no chance" that BT was along at that point. MOO

 

[BeachSky]

I still think she could be found out of the timeline & parameters given.
JMO

 

[Lilibet]

I can't answer for the OP, but IIRC, BT was not seen on the Chevron/convenience store's video - which, IMHO, does not mean that she was not there, and also IMHO, does not mean that there is "no chance" that BT was along at that point. MOO

Thank you. My thinking is the same as yours, so I didn’t understand the definite “no chance” that BT was there based on the time stamp.

 

[Seajay]

I wish there was something besides RTs word for it that BT was even there. The pics with the time stamp don’t mean squat to me, because that can be manipulated. Those could have been taken on a prior trip for all we know.

it’s just been so long now, how can she be alive? She had nothing with her. Nothing. She would have had to walk away from everything. The kids, the grands, the home, the friends, her clothes, jewelry, shoes, cell phone, money, ID. All of it. IMO

 

[TheMadScientist]

MOO: I believe there had been some INTENT, so advanced planning / work was performed before that Friday like digging a hole. We used to go to Laughlin between Christmas and New Years, would take the road from I-40 before reaching Needles approx. 26 miles to Laughlin. This is very windy kind of road, not something RT would drive towing the 5th wheel...But road 163 near the river crossing on over to Hwy 95 (from I-40 to Searchlight) is a possibility for a hole with little traffic to be dug prior to the Friday trip. This might even lend itself to the "abduction" story should a discovery be made....option would be closer to Goffs depending when the photo was taken. For all of us, if BT's picture was taken with rock formations, I'm leaning towards 11:00 am Friday for the time stamp.

To clarify my statement for Lilibet why I believe BT could not be along the 30 minute drive to the Chevron: even with a hole pre-dug, too much time would be needed to do the deed and cover the evidence.

 

[Lilibet]

Don't accuse people who have never been mentioned in this case of committing a crime.

To clarify my statement for Lilibet why I believe BT could not be along the 30 minute drive to the Chevron: even with a hole pre-dug, too much time would be needed to do the deed and cover the evidence.

How about we avoid saying things that will get this thread closed for another month.

 

[LietKynes]

At least there's new ideas about where to search.
Anything that will bring Barbara back to her family.
If she wandered off and became lost... did they stop anywhere else that day ?
It's easy to forget when time has passed.

 

[Lilibet]

Here is an article about the groups that helped find Paul Miller’s remains. Can your family reach out to them @dbdb11? Or perhaps you already have.
https://wsasearch.com/

“Miller's disappearance remained a mystery when Nuckolls learned about it from Wings of Mercy, which is a similar nonprofit drone search and rescue group based in Canada. Western States Aerial Search members got ahold of the Miller family and asked them about the possible places he might have gone in 2018.

They studied the terrain and mapped a flight path grid that covered about 1.5 square miles where the drone flew over last month after they received clearance to drone from park rangers, Nuckolls explained. The drones flew with a camera pointed directly at the ground, collecting about 7,000 photos in the process. Those photos were sent to various volunteer sleuths at Wings of Mercy, who helped search for clues.”

Utah drone searchers may have solved missing hiker’s disappearance at California national park

 

[LietKynes]

For some reason I keep thinking she'd dropped something that could be found.
A clue of sorts ?
Hat, drink container, etc.
Of course she was wearing next to nothing and wouldn't leave a boot behind.
Maybe if RT joins the podcast he can clear that up ?

Like, a Yeti drink cooler or a red or white cap ?
What type of boots ? Ankle length cowboy boots ?
Hiking boots like the Tundra brand ?
Imo , these aren't pointless questions as if someone finds this it could be vital to her whereabouts.
Otherwise some may find something and gather it up-- & toss it in the trash, thinking that someone left their litter in the desert.

We've picked up at parks after other while on a hike before. Annoying as heck but I like to see a pristine wilderness when possible.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Here is an article about the groups that helped find Paul Miller’s remains. Can your family reach out to them @dbdb11? Or perhaps you already have.
https://wsasearch.com/

“Miller's disappearance remained a mystery when Nuckolls learned about it from Wings of Mercy, which is a similar nonprofit drone search and rescue group based in Canada. Western States Aerial Search members got ahold of the Miller family and asked them about the possible places he might have gone in 2018.

They studied the terrain and mapped a flight path grid that covered about 1.5 square miles where the drone flew over last month after they received clearance to drone from park rangers, Nuckolls explained. The drones flew with a camera pointed directly at the ground, collecting about 7,000 photos in the process. Those photos were sent to various volunteer sleuths at Wings of Mercy, who helped search for clues.”

Utah drone searchers may have solved missing hiker’s disappearance at California national park

I really have to commend organizations such as Wings of Mercy for the work they do.

It must be rewarding and heartbreaking, sometimes simultaneously.

I cannot fathom the feeling a volunteer must get when they see something they believe may be human remains in one of those drone photos or in person during a search. I imagine it is like ice running through your veins.

Such an amazing resource out there for those missing loved ones. It really takes a special kind of person to do that type of job!

JMO

 

[Kapua]

I still think she could be found out of the timeline & parameters given.
JMO

I wholeheartedly agree. BT is findable, IMHO.

 

[deugirtni]

Imho, one cannot compare the case of Paul Miller to that of BT.

PM set out deliberately for the purpose of a deliberate desert hike, all on his own. There was nobody with him who could say for sure where he was at any given point in time. It is only known for sure where his vehicle was parked. He was there for specific reasons of his own, and we have no idea what might have prompted him to venture off to wherever he did before he succumbed for whatever reasons he did.

On the other hand, it was an impromptu short stop to see rock formations which prompted BT to be out in the desert. BT was not going for a hike, nor was she prepared for hiking, based on her reported attire and her stated supplies (none, other than beer in hand). She had someone right there with her who knew exactly where she was at the moment she disappeared, and what time it was, and where she was headed to, and the location of her destination, how close it was and how evident its path was, from where she disappeared. Because her travel-mate was aware of all of this, he also contacted police much sooner than likely would have been the case with someone in a position such as Paul Miller's.

There also seems to have been people who believe they saw PM on the trails on the day he went missing, but meanwhile, there have been no sightings of BT reported since she left her own home that morning.

So while it is wonderful news that PM's body was located, even though there was nobody with him to say where exactly he was on that day, BT's body remains hidden even though we know exactly where she was. To me, these are completely different circumstances.

 

[LietKynes]

Imho, one cannot compare the case of Paul Miller to that of BT.

PM set out deliberately for the purpose of a deliberate desert hike, all on his own. There was nobody with him who could say for sure where he was at any given point in time. It is only known for sure where his vehicle was parked. He was there for specific reasons of his own, and we have no idea what might have prompted him to venture off to wherever he did before he succumbed for whatever reasons he did.

On the other hand, it was an impromptu short stop to see rock formations which prompted BT to be out in the desert. BT was not going for a hike, nor was she prepared for hiking, based on her reported attire and her stated supplies (none, other than beer in hand). She had someone right there with her who knew exactly where she was at the moment she disappeared, and what time it was, and where she was headed to, and the location of her destination, how close it was and how evident its path was, from where she disappeared. Because her travel-mate was aware of all of this, he also contacted police much sooner than likely would have been the case with someone in a position such as Paul Miller's.

There also seems to have been people who believe they saw PM on the trails on the day he went missing, but meanwhile, there have been no sightings of BT reported since she left her own home that morning.

So while it is wonderful news that PM's body was located, even though there was nobody with him to say where exactly he was on that day, BT's body remains hidden even though we know exactly where she was. To me, these are completely different circumstances.

bbm
Agreed.
And we don't know if she had a beer.
There have been discussions about dehydration and possible disorientation but if she was there and hiking for 2+ hours --she'd have water and maybe not wearing that bikini at all.
As a person who enjoyed the outdoors based on photos of her; she'd have known how to hike safely and be adequately attired.
None of this makes any sense.
MOO

 

[deugirtni]

If she became disoriented and went off the cleared path, then surely she would've run into issues with the cactus and she would've been heard, especially considering all of her exposed skin?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

If she became disoriented and went off the cleared path, then surely she would've run into issues with the cactus and she would've been heard, especially considering all of her exposed skin?

Maybe she avoided the cactus.

 

[cazador]

Maybe she avoided the cactus.

Very possible. I walked around and it never touched my body

 

[cazador]

Maybe she avoided the cactus.

She could have walked to the remote camping area .. If she walked from where RT said they were .. Barbara would have been in full view of anyone who had stopped at the vevicle viewing area as she walked. Then she would find her way through the Granite boulders to the remote camping area..