Found Deceased CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #13

[rosesfromangels]

This case has been baffling from the very beginning.

I had a thought that I haven't seen mentioned. It's probably not likely, but still ... it could be possible. What if BT left voluntarily? RT didn't think she had a cell phone, but what if she did? Perhaps she had a friend following along a few miles back, and the moment she was alone, called and had her friend quickly pick her up. That would explain her vanishing into thin air without a trace. I can't imagine why she would leave her beloved dog and personal belongings behind, but that might explain why she seemed "out of character" at the kennel.

If she did leave voluntarily, and has been in contact with the police, that could explain why LE doesn't seem to be actively looking for her. In cases like that, are LE required to tell the family that she's safe but wants no contact? Or are they required to respect the "missing" individual's privacy and not say anything at all?

Anyway, it's just a thought that jumped into my head. I think of BT often, and keep her thread open in one of my tabs on my computer so I can check it daily for any updates.

As we all have seen time and time again, anything is possible! That being said, I haven't heard anything that would point to her taking this action pre or post disappearance. The fact that her bank accounts haven't been touched strongly indicate she is deceased. I"m not aware of anything about her past that suggests this type of sudden disappearance would align with her profile.
There is, of course, the possibility of confusion from heat stroke, or other potential factors that could have rendered her disoriented and wandering. In that scenario, I could see a volunteer (albeit confused), disappearance.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[wary]

This case has been baffling from the very beginning.

I had a thought that I haven't seen mentioned. It's probably not likely, but still ... it could be possible. What if BT left voluntarily? RT didn't think she had a cell phone, but what if she did? Perhaps she had a friend following along a few miles back, and the moment she was alone, called and had her friend quickly pick her up. That would explain her vanishing into thin air without a trace. I can't imagine why she would leave her beloved dog and personal belongings behind, but that might explain why she seemed "out of character" at the kennel.

If she did leave voluntarily, and has been in contact with the police, that could explain why LE doesn't seem to be actively looking for her. In cases like that, are LE required to tell the family that she's safe but wants no contact? Or are they required to respect the "missing" individual's privacy and not say anything at all?

Anyway, it's just a thought that jumped into my head. I think of BT often, and keep her thread open in one of my tabs on my computer so I can check it daily for any updates.

I believe—someone correct me if I’m wrong—that standard LE policy would be to inform immediate family—her husband, in this case—that she is alive, and does not wish contact. They would then close the case, however. That last has not happened in this case.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I just stumbled upon this site, and they do have a bulletin on Barb from when she first went missing. Sounds like a great organization. SWARM – Search with Aerial RC Multirotor

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[anneg]

I just stumbled upon this site, and they do have a bulletin on Barb from when she first went missing. Sounds like a great organization. SWARM – Search with Aerial RC Multirotor

Amateur opinion and speculation

Member @cazador, who visited and photographed the location where Barbara went missing, joined SWARM and posted about the organization. Here are a couple of his posts:

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #12

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #10

 

[Kemug]

Does anyone know anything about statistics? eg, are there any statistics anywhere about percentages of people missing in deserts, ie whether foul play, never found, found alive, deliberate disappearance, etc? I'm not putting this very well, hope you understand what I mean.

 

[Seattle1]

This case has been baffling from the very beginning.

I had a thought that I haven't seen mentioned. It's probably not likely, but still ... it could be possible. What if BT left voluntarily? RT didn't think she had a cell phone, but what if she did? Perhaps she had a friend following along a few miles back, and the moment she was alone, called and had her friend quickly pick her up. That would explain her vanishing into thin air without a trace. I can't imagine why she would leave her beloved dog and personal belongings behind, but that might explain why she seemed "out of character" at the kennel.

If she did leave voluntarily, and has been in contact with the police, that could explain why LE doesn't seem to be actively looking for her. In cases like that, are LE required to tell the family that she's safe but wants no contact? Or are they required to respect the "missing" individual's privacy and not say anything at all?

Anyway, it's just a thought that jumped into my head. I think of BT often, and keep her thread open in one of my tabs on my computer so I can check it daily for any updates.

Reportedly, BT did not have a cell phone and her communication was by phone owned by RT.

It does not follow that this 69-year-old woman with plans to travel to see her dying brother in HK would voluntarily disappear without a trace. Her family was too important -- especially her brother as the VI for this case relayed earlier.

 

[trujac]

Reportedly, BT did not have a cell phone and her communication was by phone owned by RT.

It does not follow that this 69-year-old woman with plans to travel to see her dying brother in HK would voluntarily disappear without a trace. Her family was too important -- especially her brother as the VI for this case relayed earlier.

Chances of anyone voluntarily disappearing in the mohave desert, especially in the dead heat of summer, are remote...usually, the vanishing has more to do with the unpredictable and diabolical.

 

[10ofRods]

Does anyone know anything about statistics? eg, are there any statistics anywhere about percentages of people missing in deserts, ie whether foul play, never found, found alive, deliberate disappearance, etc? I'm not putting this very well, hope you understand what I mean.

I try to follow as many California desert stories as I can. Most desert disappearances that I'm aware of (I've been watching for about 10 years) end up being foul play. There was a rather famous case (which involved a woman from AZ, not far from where Barb lived) in which there was a voluntary disappearance. The woman was walking in the Mojave Preserve, IIRC, having had some kind of falling out with her traveling partner. She got into a car with strangers, went to Vegas, partied for a few days, and then was dropped off in Laughlin, where she contacted family.

I may be misremembering a couple of details. Anyway, I've often thought that RT's belief that the same happened to Barbara (at least, his initial story about what happened) paralleled that woman's story and made his own story more plausible. RT and Barbara were living in the area at the time. RT frequently went to Laughlin (per VI).

At any rate, there are some never found (and obviously, could be a lot we don't know about). But I consider the entire area around the Mojave Preserve to be a higher crime area. I've witnessed a robbery and two assaults in Barstow (over the last 25 years). There are bodies found out there, victims of foul play either in the desert or elsewhere, so many abandoned car/missing person cases...the desert is a scary place for many reasons.

That being said, I wouldn't have thought too much about my personal safety on a brief stop on Kelbaker Road, there are a couple of businesses nearby, it's not *that* isolated.

I too think we can rule out deliberate disappearance. <modsnip>

 

[Cherwell]

RT's belief that the same happened to Barbara

As I've said before, I don't think he necessarily believed that. He was clutching at a straw, an explanation that would realistically allow for her survival. Wouldn't we all hold on to a hope, however flimsy, while knowing it was probably futile?

 

[rosesfromangels]

As I've said before, I don't think he necessarily believed that. He was clutching at a straw, an explanation that would realistically allow for her survival. Wouldn't we all hold on to a hope, however flimsy, while knowing it was probably futile?

I think many people hold out hope as long as no earthy remains have been recovered, despite how futile it seems. More searches are needed IMO.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[10ofRods]

As I've said before, I don't think he necessarily believed that. He was clutching at a straw, an explanation that would realistically allow for her survival. Wouldn't we all hold on to a hope, however flimsy, while knowing it was probably futile?

Far be it from me to give a definition of "belief." Let's just say he produced a theory consistent with her somehow disappearing into someone's car on the way to Vegas (since Kelbaker Road is a well known short cut for people in that area to get to Vegas and she was dressed in a bikini with a beer in her hand).

Yes, we would all hold on to hope. But when Vegas area news reporters reached out to him for further interviews, he declined. Personally, I wouldn't be able to go directly to "do nothing, it's futile" until all my hope was exhausted on a search. No attempt was made to blitz the Vegas area with publicity about Barbara (by LE or by the immediate family). RT was apparently banned from the initial search area, but could have organized searches of the area after LE gave up.

Anyway, no one can know for sure what anyone else believes. You can't know that he was "clutching at straws" nor can I know that he tried to believe the "got into a stranger car" theory.
-----------

Oh, and while I'm reviewing my notes on this case, I'll add that RT told our VI that they were headed for an actual campground a bit further north. They were not boondocking, nor did they intend to spend the night at the side of the road. There's a FCFS campground that they had used before and that's where they were headed, according to RT. Before leaving, Barbara told her family the same thing and that she wouldn't have cell phone access for a few days (no specific number of days mentioned). They were headed onward to Vegas, then in a loop back to their house.

 

[trujac]

Far be it from me to give a definition of "belief." Let's just say he produced a theory consistent with her somehow disappearing into someone's car on the way to Vegas (since Kelbaker Road is a well known short cut for people in that area to get to Vegas and she was dressed in a bikini with a beer in her hand).

Yes, we would all hold on to hope. But when Vegas area news reporters reached out to him for further interviews, he declined. Personally, I wouldn't be able to go directly to "do nothing, it's futile" until all my hope was exhausted on a search. No attempt was made to blitz the Vegas area with publicity about Barbara (by LE or by the immediate family). RT was apparently banned from the initial search area, but could have organized searches of the area after LE gave up.

Anyway, no one can know for sure what anyone else believes. You can't know that he was "clutching at straws" nor can I know that he tried to believe the "got into a stranger car" theory.
-----------

Oh, and while I'm reviewing my notes on this case, I'll add that RT told our VI that they were headed for an actual campground a bit further north. They were not boondocking, nor did they intend to spend the night at the side of the road. There's a FCFS campground that they had used before and that's where they were headed, according to RT. Before leaving, Barbara told her family the same thing and that she wouldn't have cell phone access for a few days (no specific number of days mentioned). They were headed onward to Vegas, then in a loop back to their house.

Thanks for clarifying where they planned to camp. Leaving a dog in a RV/fifth wheel, etc...with the air conditioner running while out hiking in Mohave desert during the summer wouldn't be something that I would feel comfortable doing. RT and BT lived in Henderson NV before moving to Bullhead City AZ--perhaps RT was reflecting on their Henderson home hoping that Barbara would be in a homing pigeon mode--returning to Henderson because she preferred living in Henderson over Bullhead City.

 

[10ofRods]

Thanks for clarifying where they planned to camp. Leaving a dog in a RV/fifth wheel, etc...with the air conditioner running while out hiking in Mohave desert during the summer wouldn't be something that I would feel comfortable doing. RT and BT lived in Henderson NV before moving to Bullhead City AZ--perhaps RT was reflecting on their Henderson home hoping that Barbara would be in a homing pigeon mode--returning to Henderson because she preferred living in Henderson over Bullhead City.

We all differ on this. The trailer was new - but many, many people trust their trailer A/C as much as they trust their home A/C. I wouldn't ever give the thumbs-up on a trailer that didn't provide for our doggies reliably. A/C units don't usually fail - and kennel owners are no more likely to have actually working A/C than a trailer, IMO. Especially a brand-new one.

Perhaps they ought to have gone anywhere?

If I were Barb I would have only wanted the trailer if it meant I could take my doggies.

They were supposed to be going on a short hike - and that may have been planned earlier and perhaps that's why RT decided to have Barb leave the dog at the kennel.

I wouldn't be comfortable leaving my dog at home in Bullhead. There's no way of assuring, especially now, that home A/c and electricity are going to work. So you're basically saying that both of the Thomas's ought not to have left home (probably a good idea - but that's not how people work).

I don't have any clue why you think the couple would be planning to move to Henderson. I don't remember a single shred of VI posts indicating any such thing. Why? They had just purchased that single family, fairly large (with room for a pool) dwelling and you think they were considering moving back to Henderson? What's your source? Why would Barbara be in "homing pigeon" mode? Why would Henderson be better than living in Bullhead? Quite frankly, since there's gambling in Henderson and none in Bullhead, I would posit that MAYBE Barb liked having a gambling free habitat?

We really don't know. I know that RT liked Henderson - are you saying he was trying to maneuver to move? On what basis? They bought that house in Bullhead together, then they planned an ordinary vacation in their rig to Mojave and Vegas, something hundreds of people do every weekend in that area.

The trailer they bought has exceedingly high ratings for the automatic A/C and I would definitely trust it (and test it via short hikes - such as the one the Thomas's took that day). But they didn't take their dog. Maybe Barbara felt uncertain at the last minute (as you would, right?) Or maybe RT did - we don't know. We do know that the dog was left at the kennel beyond the time frame expected (per VI), which is understandable.

Anyway, I strongly prefer my dogs to be near me. I trust modern conveniences like A/C but wouldn't have wanted to go on more than an hour's hike (which is what they planned). If the dog had been in the trailer, Barb would have had more reason to hurry back.

Why did she want to go back sooner? Why didn't she arrive?

(And not sure that Henderson home belonged to both of them equally...it was her home, with a former roommate, IIRC...what's the theory on why he would then be pushing her to go back to a place she had apparently left for a single family home in a very similar, but casino-free palce?)

 

[trujac]

We all differ on this. The trailer was new - but many, many people trust their trailer A/C as much as they trust their home A/C. I wouldn't ever give the thumbs-up on a trailer that didn't provide for our doggies reliably. A/C units don't usually fail - and kennel owners are no more likely to have actually working A/C than a trailer, IMO. Especially a brand-new one.

Perhaps they ought to have gone anywhere?


If I were Barb I would have only wanted the trailer if it meant I could take my doggies.

They were supposed to be going on a short hike - and that may have been planned earlier and perhaps that's why RT decided to have Barb leave the dog at the kennel.

I wouldn't be comfortable leaving my dog at home in Bullhead. There's no way of assuring, especially now, that home A/c and electricity are going to work. So you're basically saying that both of the Thomas's ought not to have left home (probably a good idea - but that's not how people work).

I don't have any clue why you think the couple would be planning to move to Henderson. I don't remember a single shred of VI posts indicating any such thing. Why? They had just purchased that single family, fairly large (with room for a pool) dwelling and you think they were considering moving back to Henderson? What's your source? Why would Barbara be in "homing pigeon" mode? Why would Henderson be better than living in Bullhead? Quite frankly, since there's gambling in Henderson and none in Bullhead, I would posit that MAYBE Barb liked having a gambling free habitat?

We really don't know. I know that RT liked Henderson - are you saying he was trying to maneuver to move? On what basis? They bought that house in Bullhead together, then they planned an ordinary vacation in their rig to Mojave and Vegas, something hundreds of people do every weekend in that area.

The trailer they bought has exceedingly high ratings for the automatic A/C and I would definitely trust it (and test it via short hikes - such as the one the Thomas's took that day). But they didn't take their dog. Maybe Barbara felt uncertain at the last minute (as you would, right?) Or maybe RT did - we don't know. We do know that the dog was left at the kennel beyond the time frame expected (per VI), which is understandable.

Anyway, I strongly prefer my dogs to be near me. I trust modern conveniences like A/C but wouldn't have wanted to go on more than an hour's hike (which is what they planned). If the dog had been in the trailer, Barb would have had more reason to hurry back.

Why did she want to go back sooner? Why didn't she arrive?

(And not sure that Henderson home belonged to both of them equally...it was her home, with a former roommate, IIRC...what's the theory on why he would then be pushing her to go back to a place she had apparently left for a single family home in a very similar, but casino-free palce?)

I live 30 miles from Bullhead City...this year we had several months when the daily heat was over 110...I leave my dog at home with the house central air on--not worried at all--however, I never take my dog in the vehicle when the sun is out during the summer or when the Mohave desert temperatures are over 70 degrees--it is not safe to do that, imo. The blog I posted where several RV/camping people weighed in on the pro and cons of taking their dog(s) camping in harsh weather conditions sheds light on the various problems folks can run into while camping with their dog when the vehicle air conditioning needs to be left running for the dog to be safe. I think it is possible that dropping Lexi off at the kennel was something that BT/RT did when hiking and camping during the summer months if they planned to explore/hike away from their fifth wheel during the day. Why BT was upset when she dropped Lexi off at the kennel isn't clear--she could have been under stress for a lot of reasons that had nothing to do with leaving her dog at the kennel. It would be helpful to know more about the reasons why BT and RT moved to Bullhead City from Henderson--there is a marked radical difference between the two communities...Henderson being more sophisticated and with a lot more and better amenities than Bullhead City, imo. Bullhead City AZ faces Laughlin NV--the Colorado River separates the two towns with the Laughlin casinos in very easy reach of Bullhead City. It appears BT and RT were financially comfortable and could choose where to live. RT's immediate response to BT's disappearance was that he thought she was picked up and taken to Henderson. That suggests to me that she might have initially had plans to go there sometime during their camping trip. Why BT's family hasn't kept her disappearance in the public eye in order to generate leads and solicit volunteer search groups, like Suzanne M's family has done for her is hard to explain...except for the fact that LE doesn't seem to be asking for the public to help either.

 

[10ofRods]

I live 30 miles from Bullhead City...this year we had several months when the daily heat was over 110...I leave my dog at home with the house central air on--not worried at all--however, I never take my dog in the vehicle when the sun is out during the summer or when the Mohave desert temperatures are over 70 degrees--it is not safe to do that, imo. The blog I posted where several RV/camping people weighed in on the pro and cons of taking their dog(s) camping in harsh weather conditions sheds light on the various problems folks can run into while camping with their dog when the vehicle air conditioning needs to be left running for the dog to be safe. I think it is possible that dropping Lexi off at the kennel was something that BT/RT did when hiking and camping during the summer months if they planned to explore/hike away from their fifth wheel during the day. Why BT was upset when she dropped Lexi off at the kennel isn't clear--she could have been under stress for a lot of reasons that had nothing to do with leaving her dog at the kennel. It would be helpful to know more about the reasons why BT and RT moved to Bullhead City from Henderson--there is a marked radical difference between the two communities...Henderson being more sophisticated and with a lot more and better amenities than Bullhead City, imo. Bullhead City AZ faces Laughlin NV--the Colorado River separates the two towns with the Laughlin casinos in very easy reach of Bullhead City. It appears BT and RT were financially comfortable and could choose where to live. RT's immediate response to BT's disappearance was that he thought she was picked up and taken to Henderson. That suggests to me that she might have initially had plans to go there sometime during their camping trip. Why BT's family hasn't kept her disappearance in the public eye in order to generate leads and solicit volunteer search groups, like Suzanne M's family has done for her is hard to explain...except for the fact that LE doesn't seem to be asking for the public to help either.

A high end 5th wheel is not a "trailer" nor an ordinary vehicle. It has push-button A/C and personally - until the Barbara Thomas case came up, I thought it was a great answer to traveling with pets (and leaving them briefly while exploring the desert).

We have reviewed the temperatures that day, on Kelbaker Rd., many times. But the point is that they didn't take their dog (even though, many many people would have found it okay to do so - if they knew their trailer was working and they were never more than 30 minutes from it - as the Thomas's experienced that day).

We will probably never know the insides of the minds of either RT or Barbara as to why they moved to their current home - but it was, IMO, the first single family home with a yard that either of them had purchased.

 

[Curiousobserver]

We all differ on this. The trailer was new - but many, many people trust their trailer A/C as much as they trust their home A/C. I wouldn't ever give the thumbs-up on a trailer that didn't provide for our doggies reliably. A/C units don't usually fail - and kennel owners are no more likely to have actually working A/C than a trailer, IMO. Especially a brand-new one.

Perhaps they ought to have gone anywhere?

If I were Barb I would have only wanted the trailer if it meant I could take my doggies.

They were supposed to be going on a short hike - and that may have been planned earlier and perhaps that's why RT decided to have Barb leave the dog at the kennel.

I wouldn't be comfortable leaving my dog at home in Bullhead. There's no way of assuring, especially now, that home A/c and electricity are going to work. So you're basically saying that both of the Thomas's ought not to have left home (probably a good idea - but that's not how people work).

Snipped to save space....

I would worry the dog would trash the inside of the brand new trailer if left alone, some dogs go crazy if left alone.

 

[10ofRods]

I live 30 miles from Bullhead City...this year we had several months when the daily heat was over 110...I leave my dog at home with the house central air on--not worried at all--however, I never take my dog in the vehicle when the sun is out during the summer or when the Mohave desert temperatures are over 70 degrees--it is not safe to do that, imo. The blog I posted where several RV/camping people weighed in on the pro and cons of taking their dog(s) camping in harsh weather conditions sheds light on the various problems folks can run into while camping with their dog when the vehicle air conditioning needs to be left running for the dog to be safe. I think it is possible that dropping Lexi off at the kennel was something that BT/RT did when hiking and camping during the summer months if they planned to explore/hike away from their fifth wheel during the day. Why BT was upset when she dropped Lexi off at the kennel isn't clear--she could have been under stress for a lot of reasons that had nothing to do with leaving her dog at the kennel. It would be helpful to know more about the reasons why BT and RT moved to Bullhead City from Henderson--there is a marked radical difference between the two communities...Henderson being more sophisticated and with a lot more and better amenities than Bullhead City, imo. Bullhead City AZ faces Laughlin NV--the Colorado River separates the two towns with the Laughlin casinos in very easy reach of Bullhead City. It appears BT and RT were financially comfortable and could choose where to live. RT's immediate response to BT's disappearance was that he thought she was picked up and taken to Henderson. That suggests to me that she might have initially had plans to go there sometime during their camping trip. Why BT's family hasn't kept her disappearance in the public eye in order to generate leads and solicit volunteer search groups, like Suzanne M's family has done for her is hard to explain...except for the fact that LE doesn't seem to be asking for the public to help either.

IIRC, the Kennel owner mentioned that they were not expecting Lexi (the dog's name, I think) that morning, Which is why we've been treating it as a spontaneous/last minute decision.

All I know about the move from Henderson to Bullhead was that they got a much bigger place than the one they had in Henderson. Their house was one of the smallest in their Bullhead neighborhood, but it was not a condo, which is what they had in Henderson, IIRC.

I'm not sure why you think the Thomases were financially comfortable enough to live anywhere they chose. Barbara had moved several times, her money was the down payment for the house in Bullhead, she had definitely lived in much less expensive quarters up until their move to Bullhead.

IME, people move to Bullhead or Havasu because they can get more land and more square footage.

Where are you getting that information about RT thinking she'd gone to Henderson? We never hear him say that, we hear a report from Las Vegas say he thinks she might have gone to Vegas. IIRC.

I have never heard that Barbara had any plans to go to Henderson and that doesn't seem to be what she told her family, either. She said "gone for a few days," not "going to Henderson."

At any rate, I don't think anything about Henderson was ever in the story, in MSM, or from the VI.

I would worry the dog would trash the inside of the brand new trailer if left alone, some dogs go crazy if left alone.

Could be. Only the Thomas's would know that. They apparently made a last minute decision to put Lexi in the kennel, in any case. Barbara was last caught on camera entering the truck (from the neighbor's camera), just minutes after dropping Lexi off at the kennel.

Everything we can say about the dog and why it didn't go camping is of course conjecture.

I should also mention that it did not get up to 110 at Kelbaker Road that day, and it was not predicted to be 110 that day, either. I believe it was 102 by 4 pm (their walk supposed to have ended at around 2 pm, when it was more like 99-100F). Too hot of course to leave a pet in a vehicle, but their brand new 5th wheel had push button A/C. Their walk was about 2 miles RT, based on the areas searched by the SAR team.

 

[LietKynes]

I believe—someone correct me if I’m wrong—that standard LE policy would be to inform immediate family—her husband, in this case—that she is alive, and does not wish contact. They would then close the case, however. That last has not happened in this case.

Agreed.
This case is very much open.
And so far there are no official poi's.
Members may speculate as we are permitted to do here.
MOO

 

[Curiousobserver]

I am not sure what bringing the dog or not bringing the dog would have to do with anyone's (hypothetical) plans to murder his wife. It would be just as easy to do with the dog in the camper or in the kennel, or at home.

I don't know what happened, obviously, but it is perfectly reasonable that she got lost and hasn't been found and her husband's actions, at least on the surface, are quite ordinary if you think that at some point in the next day or two he realized she died in that desert.

 

[Kemug]

I try to follow as many California desert stories as I can. Most desert disappearances that I'm aware of (I've been watching for about 10 years) end up being foul play. There was a rather famous case (which involved a woman from AZ, not far from where Barb lived) in which there was a voluntary disappearance. The woman was walking in the Mojave Preserve, IIRC, having had some kind of falling out with her traveling partner. She got into a car with strangers, went to Vegas, partied for a few days, and then was dropped off in Laughlin, where she contacted family.

Thank you very much for replying to my (badly put) query about the stats of missing people in that area. Very interesting that a lot turned out to be foul play. And the story of the woman who went on to Vegas with strangers makes me wonder if that is where RT got that idea. Maybe we will never know what really happened. For me, I'm not so interested in the dog, but in the length of time of the walk/hike - 100 degrees is not as bad as 110/115, but several hours in it is seriously problematic and unwise - and even makes it open to question. MOO