CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #6

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  • #1,121
I keep hoping for that but if I'm to be honest, it feels like we're all chewing on an old piece of gum that lost all of it's flavor long ago.

We're making the effort but not producing much IMO. I think it says a lot for Barbara that we've all grown to love and admire her in such a short time and we simply can't give up. Flavor or no flavor.
Yes, it's very frustrating. After all this time there is still no evidence of a crime and no indication of what may have happened.
I fear that she is deceased and they will not know what caused her death until they find her body.
They must believe she is still out in the desert somewhere.
So why aren't they looking?
Whatever happened with the drone search request?
Was there any explanation to the VI from LE as to why they have not done it? Are they waiting until it cools down? Imo
 
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  • #1,122
It's pretty desolate in that area, to be honest. Barstow, the closest town, is an hour away. And there's a lot of secluded area between I-40 and I-15 since Kelbaker stretches between the two so not much need to leave the desert unless you were going to Vegas. From the spot she went missing, there isn't a direct path to Vegas so it could take a couple hours at least.
Like a needle in a haystack ... hoping LE has some sort of electronic information they are following up on.

Have any of you heard of the Kristi Cornwell case? I tried searching for the thread, but couldn't find it (only the FA discussion which isn't allowed anymore).
Brother finds Cornwell's remains; prime suspect killed self last spring

Anyway, Kristi's brother spent a year searching for her body based on a ping from a cell phone tower near where she went missing. My point being, is there a tower near the Kelbaker location where LE could see who was in the area, or would a tower pick-up all the vehicles passing by on I-40? Just a thought ...
 
  • #1,123
In the photos posted above, the top photo of Barbara and dog shows three beach chairs.
Who was the third person on that trip?
This person would be able to give their perspective on how the Thomas' related to one another while camping.
 
  • #1,124
Heatstroke?

You can only stagger off so far in the throes of heatstroke. Vomiting, convulsions, muscle cramps, etc. are common. While Barbara appears to have been at least somewhat acclimated to the desert, she wasn't in possession of water. Was she taking in more fluid than she was losing? With that outside temperature it won't take long to overheat without adequate water, and sufficient protection from the elements.

Would SAR canines have missed her curled/rolled under vegetation? Would they have alerted on vomit?

All JMO, MOO, IM Old McDonald.

This is all I can think of. And this scenario doesn't allow her to wander far.

As far as we know, the SAR canines found no trail of her at all. The dogs, if they found any scent, would have been the ones to find her under foliage.

If she did get to the point of vomiting then one would expect to find the body very near by. People do pass out from heat stroke without vomiting, especially if they don't have much in their stomachs, but even if they do, they can go directly to passing out - my daughter did, within the past year, while at Lake Havasu.

I think nearly all dogs, even untrained ones, would hit on vomit, personally.

I sure wish we knew the actual search area. I don't think Barbara collapsed within 5-10 minutes of leaving RT, if she did collapse. I do think it's possible she mistook another trail for the (short) one she was supposed to be on.

@10ofRods how much longer in your opinion before temps will be safe for further searches?

Late October or early November will be much better. We are now in the hottest part of the year. High today at Amboy is only 108, and the search area is a bit cooler, being 3800 feet in elevation (so probably 103...about the temps in the original search). Truthfully, that's cool enough for me to think about going out there and having a look. I'm curious as to what types of foliage could be used to curl up under, there has to be creosote or something less pokey out there, somewhere. Needless to say, my own husband is not in support of this idea. And if my kids found out I was considering it, they'd throw hissy fits.

I am also curious about the eastern side of Kelbaker. It probably wasn't searched as thoroughly and all of you suggesting she could have gone further than expected may be right - if she was irritated and couldn't find the key to the trailer, she might have gone down HH road in search of a likely place to relieve herself, and then gotten lost/disoriented. I think a lot about how preoccupied she must have been with the details of her upcoming travel, her dog being in a kennel, leaving RT on his own, etc. Heat stroke is not something the sufferer can sense easily...
 
  • #1,125
I'm sure this was answered but please refresh my memory.
  • Was Barbara retired?
  • If so, what was her line of work prior to retirement?
  • In prior years when she visited Hong Kong did she express any concerns about leaving her husband & dog in the U.S.?
  • What were her hobbies outside of hiking?
  • All the photography Barb must be the focal point in, were these photos submitted anywhere or on social media?
WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT BARBARA

Barbara (“BT”) is 69 years old, 5’9” tall weighing 130 pounds, with blonde/white hair and green eyes. She has a son, Matt, who lives in Indiana. Matt’s children call BT “Grandma Barbie.” BT has been married to RT since Nov 2006.

BT has two brothers. She is particularly close with her younger brother (dbdb11's father) who lives in Hong Kong and is seriously ill. She regularly mailed hallmarks and postcards of travels and adventures with photos to her brother in HK. Her brothers are estranged from one another.

She is a loving lady, loving aunt, loving mother whose son gave her a pretty hard time. BT raised Matt on her own and lived near her mother. dbdb11 said she is tough, not the type of aunt who spoils you, but warm and quick to smile.

BT is a regular and avid camper; an outdoorsy type who regularly traversed the desert. She enjoys collecting rocks for their rock garden and is fond of gnarly wood pieces. Both BT and RT like bottle hunting and finding leftover prospector knickknacks, flints etc. Bikini, beer, and hiking boots are BT's style.

She went to school for art but it is unknown if she ever graduated. Art was seen by dbdb11 in her apartment, pre-RT – her own sculptures and paintings. She painted "Iggy," dbdb11's pet iguana and gave him the painting. When she visited HK in May 2018, she brought a stick (like driftwood but from the desert) which she had painted and gave it to dbdb11’s dad.

BT used to be a cat lady who also had a dog. Her cats would always stay hidden when dbdb11’s family would visit but her dogs were always very loving. She’s always had at least one dog, and since meeting RT has transitioned fully into dog person. She/they currently have a dog named Lexi who was taken to a kennel on the morning of July 12, the day she disappeared.

Robbie brokered a home sale for her, and that is how they first met. He also helped sell her mother’s condo after she moved into permanent care facility. They would eat out on occasion in casinos but dbdb11 never had the impression that either of them liked gambling. He also said that he never had any reason to suspect they weren't completely in love with one another but he had very little interaction with them in the grand scheme.

BT is not tech-savvy and has never had a cell phone. She had to be taught how to use one while visiting Hong Kong. Both her son and her sister-in-law claim Barb expressed wanting a phone, but she never got one.

BT and RT have the usual marital arguments which dbdb11's parents describe as comical and entertaining.

She was very excited about Trump - for something politically different. She tried to sell dbdb11 on him as the answer to America's problems. They could get into really good political conversations, but she is a stubborn woman and rarely if ever does dbdb11 remember her ceding any of her views.

It is dbdb’s opinion that there is no way Barb would willingly jump in a car just to get back to the camper faster. Impossible in his mind. Unless under extreme distress, she would not get into a strangers car around there for any reason.

LE said they are unaware of any medical conditions that may have caused BT to become disoriented or lost.

MOO
 
  • #1,126
Yes, it's very frustrating. After all this time there is still no evidence of a crime and no indication of what may have happened.
I fear that she is deceased and they will not know what caused her death until they find her body.
They must believe she is still out in the desert somewhere.
So why aren't they looking?
Whatever happened with the drone search request?
Was there any explanation to the VI from LE as to why they have not done it? Imo
Well but see that's the thing about lost flavor. We're basing that on early updates. LE hasn't given an update recently so for all we know they may have found evidence of a crime and do have a vague idea of what happened to her. I was just going to mention that most of us have followed other cases here where we heard nothing from LE for months and then boom, the missing person's remains were located during searches elsewhere that no one knew they were doing. So IMO we can't know for sure they aren't searching somewhere unannounced or that they still think Barbara is out in the desert.
 
  • #1,127
As far as we know, the SAR canines found no trail of her at all. The dogs, if they found any scent, would have been the ones to find her under foliage.

If she did get to the point of vomiting then one would expect to find the body very near by. People do pass out from heat stroke without vomiting, especially if they don't have much in their stomachs, but even if they do, they can go directly to passing out - my daughter did, within the past year, while at Lake Havasu.

I think nearly all dogs, even untrained ones, would hit on vomit, personally.

I sure wish we knew the actual search area. I don't think Barbara collapsed within 5-10 minutes of leaving RT, if she did collapse. I do think it's possible she mistook another trail for the (short) one she was supposed to be on.



Late October or early November will be much better. We are now in the hottest part of the year. High today at Amboy is only 108, and the search area is a bit cooler, being 3800 feet in elevation (so probably 103...about the temps in the original search). Truthfully, that's cool enough for me to think about going out there and having a look. I'm curious as to what types of foliage could be used to curl up under, there has to be creosote or something less pokey out there, somewhere. Needless to say, my own husband is not in support of this idea. And if my kids found out I was considering it, they'd throw hissy fits.

I am also curious about the eastern side of Kelbaker. It probably wasn't searched as thoroughly and all of you suggesting she could have gone further than expected may be right - if she was irritated and couldn't find the key to the trailer, she might have gone down HH road in search of a likely place to relieve herself, and then gotten lost/disoriented. I think a lot about how preoccupied she must have been with the details of her upcoming travel, her dog being in a kennel, leaving RT on his own, etc. Heat stroke is not something the sufferer can sense easily...
Thank you for your desire to help find Barbara but just so you know, we WS'ers would probably throw hissy fits as well. We don't want a thread with your name on it :(
 
  • #1,128
  • #1,129
Yes, it's very frustrating. After all this time there is still no evidence of a crime and no indication of what may have happened.
I fear that she is deceased and they will not know what caused her death until they find her body.
They must believe she is still out in the desert somewhere.
So why aren't they looking?
Whatever happened with the drone search request?
Was there any explanation to the VI from LE as to why they have not done it? Imo

You can take a look at all the missing person search reports on the SBCS page here:

Search Results for “Missing Person” – San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department

The short answer is lack of resources. San Bernardino County is bigger than Switzerland.

It's really hot and LE would be risking the lives of volunteers who make up the dog and SAR teams. Those people are not paid. LE takes this very, very seriously. After 9 days, they know it's a body recovery mission and that drops in priority, not just in San Bernardino, but everywhere. Grand Canyon still has missing people in it, so does Yosemite (something like 20?) and there will be no further searches.

In short, LE does not like risking the lives of the living to find the dead.

At this point, it's all about people who use the area for recreation. Barbara could not have wandered 20 miles from the road or any trail. Still, it's a big area and it may be a long time before she's found.

People who use that area for ATV or archery or boomerangs or drone practice are the ones who will find Barbara now. It's not the kind of area where people with metal detectors usually go (I have several friends who are super into that) because it's not near any major mining areas. There's the Desert Studies Center just down the road and they do many things that take them all over that area (to count animals, plants, etc). When winter comes, the plant life shrivels up quite a bit, making it easier to find things hidden in foliage.

What I'd really like to see are cadaver dogs out there. I am not sure how that works in San Bernardino. I'd also like to see the various missing person databases have better information, because if a person is learning to use a drone for a search, it would be very cool if they had a real reason to search.

Drone use for searches (and learning how to do it) is just now becoming a thing. It's really hard to organize since while colleges want to teach it (in geography and anthropology departments anyway), we can't due to FAA regulations. We have to be X number of miles from any airport and that's tough for most urban colleges. We also have to hire an instructor who has some kind of clearance from the FAA to teach it.

So once again, this is all volunteers who do drone searches. Who practice in various places - some of them in the Mojave, but probably not this time of year.

People who go into wilderness places expecting that there will be ongoing/forever searches for them or their loved one's bodies simply are not familiar with the reality of wilderness searches. Searches now go on longer than they used to, but 9 days is pretty much a record for a desert search in the Mojave (9.5 days). People used to be presumed dead after 3 days without water out there, then it went to 4. It would be an extraordinary and medically notable event if someone survived more than 4 days at 105F temps in the Mojave with no water (a really fat person who had more water stored in their body cells would probably claim that record).
 
  • #1,130
I know everyone is now thinking this is a recovery situation. Of unfound remains.
I so get that.
I'm hoping against all odds that Barbara is safe somewhere. Highly unlikely.
Very short window of time for an abduction, and LE said they found no evidence of abduction.
It's a slim possibility she did get in a passing car and the driver turned out not to be a good Samaritan.
I just join all of you in saying where is Barbara???
Chi
 
  • #1,131
In my former jobs with body transfers for medical examiner's etc, I've literally seen it all.
If this lady is still in the Mojave I know what it would be like. :(
When I look at her pictures and see her obvious zest for life it's hard not to have some hope for her.
So I'm not interested in discussing what searchers may find when/if they go back when the weather allows.
Jmo
Chi
ETA I'm not saying it isn't a valid discussion , my mind just doesn't wanna go there
 
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  • #1,132
Well but see that's the thing about lost flavor. We're basing that on early updates. LE hasn't given an update recently so for all we know they may have found evidence of a crime and do have a vague idea of what happened to her. I was just going to mention that most of us have followed other cases here where we heard nothing from LE for months and then boom, the missing person's remains were located during searches elsewhere that no one knew they were doing. So IMO we can't know for sure they aren't searching somewhere unannounced or that they still think Barbara is out in the desert.
Yes, it would also make sense if they are waiting until the weather is cooler when thermal imaging is most likely to be more accurate.
Apparently bodies can be detected for up to 4 or 5 months after death, so hopefully they will do a drone search within the next two months.
That's how they found the body of the 21 year old hiker from Israel that had been missing. Imo
 
  • #1,133
Thank you for your desire to help find Barbara but just so you know, we WS'ers would probably throw hissy fits as well. We don't want a thread with your name on it :(

Right! Although, in my mind (seriously) I am absolutely certain I wouldn't die out there. Probably because I've done many similar things and am not dead yet. I expect Barbara felt exactly the same way. However, as I get older, I find I am being a bit more cautious. And it's other humans that I fear the most out there.

Yes, it would also make sense if they are waiting until the weather is cooler when thermal imaging is most likely to be more accurate.
Apparently bodies can be detected for up to 4 or 5 months after death, so hopefully they will do a drone search within the next two months.
That's how they found the body of the 21 year old hiker from Israel that had been missing. Imo

That wasn't in the Mojave, though, was it? I've been reading through the MP cases on the San Bernardino County Sheriff's site and I'm not seeing any drone searches organized by LE. And I wonder if the Israeli hiker's case was run by state authorities or organized by family?

RT is the one who should be pushing for the drone search, IMO. If he needs help in doing that, WS would be a great resource for him. However, simply contacting West Valley SAR would get him the help he needs to organize such a search - they'd know who was using drones for search.

Here's the company that the family hired in the case I linked above (they didn't find her though):

Drone company DroneUp helps search for missing Williamsburg couple in the Mojave Desert in California - DroneDJ

The man was found by regular search methods, as I understand it. Even knowing his location didn't pinpoint the woman's body (and there are definitely mountain lions who would be scavenging in that area, along with other scavengers).

But that company organized 80 people with drones to search a very large area (where the couple was absolutely known to be).

Since RT doesn't apparently believe that Barbara is in the desert near where he saw her, he might not think this is a useful idea. If it were me, though, the chances of a desert misadventure seem so much higher than abduction...I'd want to try.
 
  • #1,134
Right! Although, in my mind (seriously) I am absolutely certain I wouldn't die out there. Probably because I've done many similar things and am not dead yet. I expect Barbara felt exactly the same way. However, as I get older, I find I am being a bit more cautious. And it's other humans that I fear the most out there.



That wasn't in the Mojave, though, was it? I've been reading through the MP cases on the San Bernardino County Sheriff's site and I'm not seeing any drone searches organized by LE. And I wonder if the Israeli hiker's case was run by state authorities or organized by family?

RT is the one who should be pushing for the drone search, IMO. If he needs help in doing that, WS would be a great resource for him. However, simply contacting West Valley SAR would get him the help he needs to organize such a search - they'd know who was using drones for search.

Here's the company that the family hired in the case I linked above (they didn't find her though):

Drone company DroneUp helps search for missing Williamsburg couple in the Mojave Desert in California - DroneDJ

The man was found by regular search methods, as I understand it. Even knowing his location didn't pinpoint the woman's body (and there are definitely mountain lions who would be scavenging in that area, along with other scavengers).

But that company organized 80 people with drones to search a very large area (where the couple was absolutely known to be).

Since RT doesn't apparently believe that Barbara is in the desert near where he saw her, he might not think this is a useful idea. If it were me, though, the chances of a desert misadventure seem so much higher than abduction...I'd want to try.
Not sure if you missed it when you posted this but the wife was recovered April of this year.
On Sunday, April 28, 2019, Search and Rescue personnel from the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department located and recovered the remains of 65-year-old missing hiker Susan Schmierer, in the desert wilderness area east of the Amboy Crater National Landmark. Susan was reported missing along with her husband William Schmierer on June 13, 2018, when US Bureau of Land Management (BLM) Rangers found the Schmierers’ vehicle abandoned at the Amboy Crater Trailhead parking lot during a routine check of the site.

Morongo Basin- Missing Person Located Deceased – San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department
 
  • #1,135
You can take a look at all the missing person search reports on the SBCS page here:

Search Results for “Missing Person” – San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department

The short answer is lack of resources. San Bernardino County is bigger than Switzerland.

It's really hot and LE would be risking the lives of volunteers who make up the dog and SAR teams. Those people are not paid. LE takes this very, very seriously. After 9 days, they know it's a body recovery mission and that drops in priority, not just in San Bernardino, but everywhere. Grand Canyon still has missing people in it, so does Yosemite (something like 20?) and there will be no further searches.

In short, LE does not like risking the lives of the living to find the dead.

At this point, it's all about people who use the area for recreation. Barbara could not have wandered 20 miles from the road or any trail. Still, it's a big area and it may be a long time before she's found.

People who use that area for ATV or archery or boomerangs or drone practice are the ones who will find Barbara now. It's not the kind of area where people with metal detectors usually go (I have several friends who are super into that) because it's not near any major mining areas. There's the Desert Studies Center just down the road and they do many things that take them all over that area (to count animals, plants, etc). When winter comes, the plant life shrivels up quite a bit, making it easier to find things hidden in foliage.

What I'd really like to see are cadaver dogs out there. I am not sure how that works in San Bernardino. I'd also like to see the various missing person databases have better information, because if a person is learning to use a drone for a search, it would be very cool if they had a real reason to search.

Drone use for searches (and learning how to do it) is just now becoming a thing. It's really hard to organize since while colleges want to teach it (in geography and anthropology departments anyway), we can't due to FAA regulations. We have to be X number of miles from any airport and that's tough for most urban colleges. We also have to hire an instructor who has some kind of clearance from the FAA to teach it.

So once again, this is all volunteers who do drone searches. Who practice in various places - some of them in the Mojave, but probably not this time of year.

People who go into wilderness places expecting that there will be ongoing/forever searches for them or their loved one's bodies simply are not familiar with the reality of wilderness searches. Searches now go on longer than they used to, but 9 days is pretty much a record for a desert search in the Mojave (9.5 days). People used to be presumed dead after 3 days without water out there, then it went to 4. It would be an extraordinary and medically notable event if someone survived more than 4 days at 105F temps in the Mojave with no water (a really fat person who had more water stored in their body cells would probably claim that record).
Thank you- a most informative post and it’s too bad the FAA can’t find a way to allow universities to teach drone search techniques
 
  • #1,136
Not sure if you missed it when you posted this but the wife was recovered April of this year.
On Sunday, April 28, 2019, Search and Rescue personnel from the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department located and recovered the remains of 65-year-old missing hiker Susan Schmierer, in the desert wilderness area east of the Amboy Crater National Landmark. Susan was reported missing along with her husband William Schmierer on June 13, 2018, when US Bureau of Land Management (BLM) Rangers found the Schmierers’ vehicle abandoned at the Amboy Crater Trailhead parking lot during a routine check of the site.

Morongo Basin- Missing Person Located Deceased – San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department

I did miss it. Did you see where it says that ground temps near the lava would be 160F??!!??

It was almost a year after she went missing.

Since one of my theories is that anyone desiring to cause the death of someone else via heatstroke would go to exactly that area, it's fascinating to hear the temps. There are no weather stations out there, of course. It's only through searches like this that people are found (and there's no mention of the drones being helpful, instead, the successful search was in fact organized in a cooler month by two persons from the SBCS). Those two people would be good people to contact about additional searches (in future) for Barbara.

They did continue to search for Susan in small windows in the morning (it's not as hot where Barbara went missing). That's because there was concrete evidence that she was out there, near where her husband died of natural causes.

I do wonder if foul play is at least suspected in Barbara's disappearance, given that we've heard nothing about repeated searches despite the weather being somewhat amenable to small searches in the morning. Something is going on behind the scenes, that's for sure.
 
  • #1,137
10ofR0ds, I so appreciate your informed perspective and want of getting Barbara home.
I am very glad you are here.
 
  • #1,138
While we Californians may not regard it as far, if the distance is too great for the incidents to be related, then it must just be an unfortunate coincidence.

(Or are you saying that you could get from one point to the other in 2 1/2 to 3 hours? Note that I tried to choose the earliest time Sheryl Powell might've been missed and the latest time that BT might've been missed, and I still came up with only 2 1/2 hours.)

JMO
Agree that timing doesnt fit. In addition, nearly everyday here in SoCal I see news alerts where someone has gone missing or is lost while hiking here in the mountains and deserts.
 
  • #1,139
Right! Although, in my mind (seriously) I am absolutely certain I wouldn't die out there. Probably because I've done many similar things and am not dead yet. I expect Barbara felt exactly the same way. However, as I get older, I find I am being a bit more cautious. And it's other humans that I fear the most out there.



That wasn't in the Mojave, though, was it? I've been reading through the MP cases on the San Bernardino County Sheriff's site and I'm not seeing any drone searches organized by LE. And I wonder if the Israeli hiker's case was run by state authorities or organized by family?

RT is the one who should be pushing for the drone search, IMO. If he needs help in doing that, WS would be a great resource for him. However, simply contacting West Valley SAR would get him the help he needs to organize such a search - they'd know who was using drones for search.

Here's the company that the family hired in the case I linked above (they didn't find her though):

Drone company DroneUp helps search for missing Williamsburg couple in the Mojave Desert in California - DroneDJ

The man was found by regular search methods, as I understand it. Even knowing his location didn't pinpoint the woman's body (and there are definitely mountain lions who would be scavenging in that area, along with other scavengers).

But that company organized 80 people with drones to search a very large area (where the couple was absolutely known to be).

Since RT doesn't apparently believe that Barbara is in the desert near where he saw her, he might not think this is a useful idea. If it were me, though, the chances of a desert misadventure seem so much higher than abduction...I'd want to try.
I think the woman whose body was found was hiking in Ethiopia.
But I have heard they have been doing it in the US with some success.
I don't know much about but I'm very interested in it. I did read some articles for college students being taught, and saw the technology can be "tens of thousands" of dollars.

I just wondered if the VI has heard anything about his request for the drone search. I'm not sure how that would work. Would LE have to find the volunteers or would the family be responsible?
It sounds like the family can organise it on their own and LE does not have to approve it and they do not have the means themselves. Maybe that is why they did not respond to the request. I would think they would at least communicate that to him, though. Imo
 
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  • #1,140
Agree that timing doesnt fit. In addition, nearly everyday here in SoCal I see news alerts where someone has gone missing or is lost while hiking here in the mountains and deserts.

Yeah, and generally speaking, these people are on legitimate hikes.

They are out there with the intention of traveling some distance, and are equipped to do so (hiking clothes, water, etc).

They find themselves lost, with no visible reference point to lead them back.

A short leisurely stroll with a beer in hand, ain’t that.

Not where she was, and not with the visibility and proximity to her ultimate destination.

The RV.
 
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