CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #7

[10ofRods]

BBM

Ita.
It was noted during an earlier discussion that in order to access the caves --they had to walk a bit away from the path where the rock formations are.
In the photos kindly supplied to us by @sroad and others, there are rock formations from the path Barbara would have had to walk back to the RV; but no caves in that immediate vicinity.
Unless there was a large underground cave that's not visible on google earth ?

There's no large underground cave. There are lists of even tiny caves in the Mojave, but there are no small, medium or large actual caves near where Barbara disappeared (and apparently no known mine shafts either, at least not within the search area - maybe 3-4 miles from where she disappeared).

And the "cave" that I believe RT was speaking of was shown in photos by SAR and by (I believe) @sroads (but it would be great if RT's lawyer could at least confirm that; again, to save people from going out to look for other caves...) The fact that SAR specifically tweeted a cave, to me, says that it's the cave referred to in RT's narrative. It was more of a rock shelter, but people call them caves.

 

[kay74]

But BT was already on the trail. She did not need to cut across the desert because she was on the trail, in sight of the RV, and only 1/4 of a mile from the a/c and cold water.

I believe she was by the rocks because she was walking with RT and he said he stopped but she kept going, pulled ahead. Yea, she got lost and if she ended up at the highway she very well, out of thirst and heat, could have flagged a car down.

 

[10ofRods]

Arizona Woman, 69, Missing for 5 Days in the Mojave Desert After Going Hiking with Husband

Is it common for SAR tracking dogs (in the video at the link they appear to be tracking dogs/nose to the ground) to regularly go 'off-trail'? Such dogs require a 'las-known' location which to begin tracking.

I assume tracking dogs are trained or otherwise instructed to peruse areas surrounding a detected path. In some ways it appears the search dogs in that video were struggling to detect a scent... displayed random roving/coverage.

I do not recall LE stating search dogs tracked BT's scent to the road (or anywhere else for that matter) and that the scent trail ended at/on the asphalt road, as if BT had entered a vehicle.

I'm wondering if air-search dogs also were used; they do not require a 'last-known' location. IMO that would be a major oversight if such dogs were not used for the initial search.

I believe LE would have publicly released info if evidence/scent was found and would have issued a BOLO. That didn't happen. Instead, from LE: "no evidence of Barbara Thomas was found."

We know particular factors may render a scent untraceable or undetectable but short of rain/snow would that necessarily affect an entire scent trail of a person, from beginning to end?

Any experts here? Please chime in.

It is assumed LE might have photographic evidence of BT at the location(s) reported by RT but is that assumption based solely on the fact there was an LE/SAR search? If so then I would not assume as much since according to California law LE must initial a search for a reported missing person.

All we have at this point is no report from LE regarding a detected scent trail ("no evidence found")... I believe this is a major element to LE's silence-to-date.

Unless, of course, it is a tactical move by LE....

All great questions. I do know that this was a particularly long search. LE had to have some reason to have the dogs come out so many times (6 days?) and so many volunteers under strenuous conditions.

I think you are right in your analysis of the dog's behavior (but I'd love to hear from an expert). They rove around, trying to find a scent to follow (but can't).

What would keep them from using RT's scent instead, I wonder?

 

[rosesfromangels]

YES!!! I keep thinking that if this happened to my husband and he vanished just a few steps away from me and the RV, I would be in my RV in that same spot STILL today! You couldn’t make me leave or stop searching. Even if I was convinced he was abducted just the chance that he could be out there would keep me searching!

Perhaps RT went back home at the advice of LE, and has been making arrangements for what he hopes, will be some sort of a ransom demand.

We have no idea what has been going on. For all we know, negotiations have been under way. Unlikely, but who knows?!!

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MsBetsy]

BBM

Absolutely I agree we need an accurate description of what she was wearing and what type of drink container, or can or bottle.

Some like their beer from glass containers.
Was it a short necked bottle or a long one ?
If she threw it by the road during a struggle from being abducted, someone could have noticed it and discarded it by now ; because they didn't know it was important.

It was the manner in which RT gave the description, not the clothing itself.
Back in an earlier thread, it was discussed if it was a can of BudLight or a Yeti drink container.
We have Yeti's and they're pretty nice to keep a cold drink without the container 'sweating' and getting slippery in your hands.

As to the accurate description; we still do not have that.

RT showed a photo of Barbara in a red cap. Later changed to white.

We have a story about her wearing a bikini, later changed to black bra and underwear, later changed to a black swim top and shorts.
Never mind about the question of what type of boots (hiking, shorter sport boots, tall boots, etc.), and for now the description is black socks and boots.
Ankle socks ?
Tall socks ?
What if someone finds a boot -- or a pair -- and either discards them as trash or leaves them there in the Mojave, not knowing they could be significant ?

There have been repeated discussions about her appearance.
And we still do not know for certain what she was wearing or even what type of shoes and beverage she had.
RT could tell us.
Any clue would help.

Yes, the descriptions have been inconsistent but I would think LE would have included anything they thought was relevant.

It would be hard to miss a white haired woman in a bikini and tall socks and hiking boots carrying a drink if anyone had seen her.

And LE seemed to think she was not abducted, otherwise I would think they would want to question anyone who had driven by at that time.

As for someone finding a hiking boot or sock or drinking cup in the desert, well, hopefully if they have heard about Barbara being missing they would turn it in to LE even if they are unsure it belonged to her.

If this were a criminal investigation as well as a missing persons investigation, I would hope LE would do everything they can to find her.
They may not know until they actually find her body. Imo

 

[al66pine]

Frantically?

But wouldn't you, through the lawyer, try to find your wife somehow?....What do you think it means when the lawyer says "we are frantically trying to find Barbara"?....

@10ofRods Thanks for your post (which I snipped).
"We are frantically trying to find Barbara."
Maybe atty has nothing (substantive) to say, so just gives MSM a sound bite. Using "frantically" suggests a fevered urgency on their part, sounding less anemic than 'We are trying to find Barbara."
Not quite so terse as atty saying "No comment" and mos' def' better than client saying "No comment."
jmo, as possibilities.

 

[LAhiker]

Arizona Woman, 69, Missing for 5 Days in the Mojave Desert After Going Hiking with Husband

Is it common for SAR tracking dogs (in the video at the link they appear to be tracking dogs/nose to the ground) to regularly go 'off-trail'? Such dogs require a 'las-known' location which to begin tracking.

I assume tracking dogs are trained or otherwise instructed to peruse areas surrounding a detected path. In some ways it appears the search dogs in that video were struggling to detect a scent... displayed random roving/coverage.

I do not recall LE stating search dogs tracked BT's scent to the road (or anywhere else for that matter) and that the scent trail ended at/on the asphalt road, as if BT had entered a vehicle.

I'm wondering if air-search dogs also were used; they do not require a 'last-known' location. IMO that would be a major oversight if such dogs were not used for the initial search.

I believe LE would have publicly released info if evidence/scent was found and would have issued a BOLO. That didn't happen. Instead, from LE: "no evidence of Barbara Thomas was found."

We know particular factors may render a scent untraceable or undetectable but short of rain/snow would that necessarily affect an entire scent trail of a person, from beginning to end?

Any experts here? Please chime in.

It is assumed LE might have photographic evidence of BT at the location(s) reported by RT but is that assumption based solely on the fact there was an LE/SAR search? If so then I would not assume as much since according to California law LE must initial a search for a reported missing person.

All we have at this point is no report from LE regarding a detected scent trail ("no evidence found")... I believe this is a major element to LE's silence-to-date.

Unless, of course, it is a tactical move by LE....

I believe that the case detective told our VI that LE had photographic evidence of BT at the locations reported by RT. I don't think the VI has seen the photos in question. JMO

CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #6

 

[al66pine]

Publicly Proclaim Innocence?

It is RT’s right to get a lawyer as we all know anything you say can and will be used against you at a later time in court. However, the mostly innocent people are usually extremely vocal and want to get word out of their innocence. RT being so quiet when his loving wife who leaves love notes on his pillow is missing, is slightly unsettling. MOO

@Blondiexoxo Thanks for your post. BBM. Yes, agreeing generally that innocent people are usu extremely vocal.
But guilty ppl can also be vocal & proclaim their innocence and blame others. Many do. Some Websleuth vets can make arms-long lists of ppl who loudly trumpeted innocence (to the 'press' back in pre-'MSM' days) but were later convicted of battery, great bodily injury, sex offences, manslaughter, and/or murder. For one early ex, 1983, Diane Downs, Small Sacrifices, come to mind.
Diane Downs - Wikipedia.

If someone w a MisPers is innocent, why try to convince others of that point? Why spend energy on that? Why not make public appeals to look for MisPers, give interviews, hold up photo for MSM camera, organize/attend vigils, use soc media, post flyers, etc? Of course a guilty person can do the same.

Not saying anything applies to RT or his stmts.

 

[LietKynes]

Caring about Spouse?

@LietKynes Thx for your post. Snipped for focus. Sorry, not following ^.
Hiring an attorney = caring about missing spouse?
Something else = caring about missing spouse?

Hiring an attorney = considering what legal action? Thx in adv.

This was in response to RT's earlier assumption that she'd been kidnapped.
What about hiring a detective to find her ?
Was there a ransom demand ?
Since he's already hired an atty., and that atty. is "frantically" trying to find Barbara-- what is the progress in this case ?
What has his atty. been doing ?
Hopefully something more than protecting RT from Barbara's family asking questions.
RT may feel it's him vs. Barbara's family ; but it's not.
They just want to know where she is and what's happened.

Maybe hire a P.I. to find her ? Unsure if that would constitute "legal action".
It wouldn't upset Barbara's family --they might support such a move.
Maybe this could be suggested to RT ?

 

[MassGuy]

This was in response to RT's earlier assumption that she'd been kidnapped.
What about hiring a detective to find her ?
Was there a ransom demand ?
Since he's already hired an atty., and that atty. is "frantically" trying to find Barbara-- what is the progress in this case ?
What has his atty. been doing ?
Hopefully something more than protecting RT from Barbara's family asking questions.
RT may feel it's him vs. Barbara's family ; but it's not.
They just want to know where she is and what's happened.

Maybe hire a P.I. to find her ? Unsure if that would constitute "legal action".
It wouldn't upset Barbara's family --they might support such a move.
Maybe this could be suggested to RT ?

I remain convinced that this is foul play, but if Rob is under the impression that Barb was kidnapped, he is almost certainly wrong.

His only real hope of finding her, is to search the location where they were allegedly hiking together.

He needs searchers, not investigators.

 

[Kapua]

Your post reminded me that Carrie McGonigle, Amber Dubois' mother, created a search/rescue team after Amber was abducted and murdered. She has a (or more) SAR-trained dogs and they have helped recover some missing people. She could be a great help to Ms. Thomas' family and friends, and I believe she would be happy to share her contacts and experience. They might even search for Ms. Thomas, if her family asks. She lives in Escondido, just north of San Diego. Close enough, IMO, to ask!

Remembering Amber Dubois and Chelsea King a decade later

>>>snip

Since 2010, Amber’s mother Carrie McGonigle has honored her daughter by participating in searches for missing children and adults using search-and-rescue dogs. In 2011, Carrie and her dog located the remains of a local nursing student in Northern California. Carrie said her daughter would have said, “you go, mom!”

<<<snip

The link to her Facebook page (Team Amber Rescue) :

Team Amber Rescue

I don't have Facebook, but I was able to read the page, where I found this PDF:

Managing Social Media When A Loved One Is Missing

Managing Social Media Sites When A Loved One Is Missing.pdf

The missing nursing student that Carrie McGonigle and her dog found was Michelle Le; I may have mentioned her case upthread.

I wasn't aware that she had a search and rescue group!

Fabulous idea to contact her, IMHO.

ETA: The reasons that I was thinking of Michelle's case are 1) that she was found in Sunol Canyon (East SF Bay Area), which is also not an easy place to search, and 2) I remember that her friends, family members, and volunteers came up from Southern CA every weekend to search - for months. They would not give up. And their efforts paid off.

 

[PaulaDC]

Emph. mine

The fifth wheel was new and purchased prior to this trip.
Since he bought it recently, it could've been sold for between 50-70 k.
Not a small amount and it could be used for a reward in finding her.
And an airplane --even a smaller one-- would also help with $$ to aid in finding her.
It might bring some significant funds for her search.
But maybe he's sold it already-- so you could be right !
If you truly love someone-- you'll do anything to find them.
Including providing photos and/or an accurate description of what they were wearing.

Does anyone know if RT's sold any possessions to help find his wife ?

In some missing person's cases, a second mortgage has been taken out to find them.

They could be mortgaged to the max . Just because you have all those toys doesn't mean you actually own them.

 

[PaulaDC]

DBM

True.
He might have money we don't know about.

 

[10ofRods]

Perhaps RT went back home at the advice of LE, and has been making arrangements for what he hopes, will be some sort of a ransom demand.

We have no idea what has been going on. For all we know, negotiations have been under way. Unlikely, but who knows?!!

Amateur opinion and speculation

If LE thinks there's a credible report of a kidnapper (phone calls, etc), then this is an amazing and almost unprecedented example of withholding information. Somewhere, a woman is being held by ??? and we are not to be thinking to be on the look-out for her?

If negotiations with the kidnappers are still ongoing (after more than a month) and LE hasn't located the kidnapper, that too is unprecedented and very scary. Let's say she's in Mexico. That could slow things down for sure. "Locating" means "finding the general area" where the phone call is coming from. Or mail.

But you're right - we have no idea.

 

[MsGazette]

I remain convinced that this is foul play, but if Rob is under the impression that Barb was kidnapped, he is almost certainly wrong.

His only real hope of finding her, is to search the location where they were allegedly hiking together.

He needs searchers, not investigators.

I honestly agree. It’s based only on feeling though from what I saw when I was there and what I have read. It’s foul play or accidental death for me. I hope they find something soon.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

re: RT's lawyer, is he still attempting to "get information to bring Barbara home"...?

 

[al66pine]

Temperatures during BT's Desert Hike?

26 Tips for Surviving in the Desert - DesertUSA.

@ChuckMaureen. Thanks for your post. SBM.
@10ofRods Thanks for temp info on earlier post, which I cannot now find. IIRC ---
Temps ------------------ 100-104F (37.77 - 40C).
Ground may be --------- 30F hotter than air temp, per link.

These temps w BT wearing a skimpy outfit (which causes dehydration faster than w long sleeves and long pants, my interp of below*), yikes. Presumably the boots provided her feet w some insulation from the hot earth.
But if she lost her balance and fell or crumpled to the ground w heat exhaustion?
Foggy thinking could ensue and lead her far off the trail. Maybe far beyond SAR's designated search perimeter.
jmo, just possibilities.
___________________________________________________
From ChuckMaureen's link:
Tip 14, some sbm & some bbm
Do not sit or lie directly on the ground, which may be 30 degrees hotter than the air temperature. Improvise a sunshade and elevate your body. Think creatively with the supplies you have. Use a car seat or something to raise yourself at least a foot and a half off the surface. There is also a greater possibility of having a problem with a poisonous insect or a snake when you are directly on the ground.
Tip 18.
Do not remove clothing in an attempt to stay cool. This hastens dehydration. Wearing clothes helps you avoid sunburn. Cover up your arms, legs and face as best you can.

 

[10ofRods]

I remain convinced that this is foul play, but if Rob is under the impression that Barb was kidnapped, he is almost certainly wrong.

His only real hope of finding her, is to search the location where they were allegedly hiking together.

He needs searchers, not investigators.

I so agree with you and appreciate your steadfast position. I believe that in the end, she will never be found if public pressure isn't brought to bear. We need to keep the case alive somehow. I would say more, but you know, time is not quite right.

 

[TristanP]

All great questions. I do know that this was a particularly long search. LE had to have some reason to have the dogs come out so many times (6 days?) and so many volunteers under strenuous conditions.

I think you are right in your analysis of the dog's behavior (but I'd love to hear from an expert). They rove around, trying to find a scent to follow (but can't).

What would keep them from using RT's scent instead, I wonder?

I think LE had the dogs out so much because of the equal possibilities of Barbara being lost out there and Barbara being dead out there, topped with the possibility of it being murder if she was dead out there.

If she was dead out there, finding her as fast as possible would be important to be able to determine a cause of death and if any foul play was involved.

Since they really had no idea, they had to be sure to explore all possibilities. Surprising, in a way, because most LE aren’t all that thorough most of the time.

 

[kkdj]

I honestly agree. It’s based only on feeling though from what I saw when I was there and what I have read. It’s foul play or accidental death for me. I hope they find something soon.

Do you think someone knows for sure if she is deceased?