CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #8

[Kapua]

It would only take one armed individual to abduct BT.

Are you saying that in most abductions a theft of property is involved also?

JMO

No. That's not what I said. What I said was, it was highly likely that IF a random nefarious individual or individuals just so happened along, that person or persons might have noticed the truck/RV first. It's large and hard to miss.

Point taken that an abductor is not necessarily also a thief.

However, have you ever followed a case where the perp tried to stage a burglary, but there was no sign of forced entry? Have you ever followed a case where a woman went missing, but her purse and keys were at home, nothing disturbed in the house? To me, it looks suspicious that the truck and RV were untouched. MOO

 

[ChuckMaureen]

bbm

Revisiting this SBCSD FB post: (San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department)

SUMMARY:
On July 12, 2019, at 2:30 p.m., Barbara and her husband Robert were hiking in the Mohave desert approximately 20 miles north of the I-40 freeway east of Kelbaker Rd. During the hike, Barbara and Robert got separated and she has not been seen since.

Did LE and SAR initially search the proper location? Were any of the search days wasted effort?

We know at some point they did because photos show searchers climbing the rock formations, which are located west of the Kelbaker Rd/Hidden Hill Rd turnout.

 

[MsBetsy]

Did the sleuther accidentally take the wrong trail, or did he just say it was possible to take a wrong turn? I can’t actually remember but thought he said you COULD take that wrong turn but you would end up at the highway rather than lost farther into the desert. If BT ended up back at the wrong place on the highway, I’d expect that she’d stay on the highway to continue back to the RV as that would likely be shorter than trying to go back via the trails. But who knows?

The sleuther also said the trail was obvious and well marked and I think also confirmed that the RV should have been visible basically all the time from the trail. I just have a lot of trouble seeing how she would have become lost in such a short time, assuming RT’s estimate is accurate.

I asked at one point if there were any marks on the trail and the response was that it was in a remote area in the desert and it was not a marked or frequently travelled trail. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

bbm

Revisiting this SBCSD FB post: (San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department)


Did LE and SAR initially search the proper location? Were any of the search days wasted effort?

We know at some point they did because photos show searchers climbing the rock formations, which are located west of the Kelbaker Rd/Hidden Hill Rd turnout.

They said the search was conducted based on the last place that she was seen so I would think they searched the initial area thoroughly. Imo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

No. That's not what I said. What I said was, it was highly likely that IF a random nefarious individual or individuals just so happened along, that person or persons might have noticed the truck/RV first. It's large and hard to miss.

Point taken that an abductor is not necessarily also a thief.

However, have you ever followed a case where the perp tried to stage a burglary, but there was no sign of forced entry? Have you ever followed a case where a woman went missing, but her purse and keys were at home, nothing disturbed in the house? To me, it looks suspicious that the truck and RV were untouched. MOO

I don't get your point at all.

 

[10ofRods]

bbm

Revisiting this SBCSD FB post: (San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department)


Did LE and SAR initially search the proper location? Were any of the search days wasted effort?

We know at some point they did because photos show searchers climbing the rock formations, which are located west of the Kelbaker Rd/Hidden Hill Rd turnout.

I don't think so, Chuck. It seems that the truck and trailer were at Kelbaker/HH and that's where they met up with RT and began the search. It's possible the cell tower was further north (or something) but at 3:26 pm on July 12, the 911 call came in and dispatch recorded the locale as Kelbaker/HH at that point. It's just wrong in early NIXLE reports.

West Valley SAR began tweeting on Saturday and they are at the correct location (or at least, they're at Kelbaker/HH).

I think LE said there were 12 responders that first night, who searched all night (not including RT, who was also searching). I think a helicopter came in for spotlight support, the first day NIXLE report mentions them, IIRC. Obviously a night search is not ideal but this was a life-threatening situation for Barbara, if she was out there.

I think the dogs arrived the second day. After reading up on training and disposition of sniffing vs cadaver dogs, I think those were sniffer dogs (and it's fascinating to watch the handlers; the dogs were taken to an intersection of trails, presumably the one near where RT says he last saw Barbara).

 

[Blue Ridge]

I don't get you point at all.

I do... think similar to how in an abduction scenario, they might have expected to find a drinking cup or perhaps a hat laying by the road.
MOO

ETA: I'd forgotten to moo.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I do... think similar to how in an abduction scenario, they might have expected to find a drinking cup or perhaps a hat laying by the road.

I still don't get it.

Why would the truck or RV be touched by a hypothetical abductor if BT was their target and she wasn't inside of either of them?

 

[10ofRods]

I do... think similar to how in an abduction scenario, they might have expected to find a drinking cup or perhaps a hat laying by the road.

The only abduction theory that makes sense (given no travel cup found in the area), is that someone stopped and asked if she needed help and she voluntarily got in the car. While it is true that the RV should have been visible from near where RT last saw her, it would also have been visible for a while if she walked on the wrong trail. Perhaps she really was starting to feel heat distress. Perhaps their 2 mile walk had stretched into 2-3 hours, as they climbed some rocks, and presumably, RT was taking pictures along the route.

If she then decided to try a short cut (back to the road, for easier going?) then, it's possible she also accepted a ride.

The really unbelievable part of this would be for that helpful car to contain a kidnapper. Seems like we need Mr Occam here again.

 

[firstsleuth]

Answering a previous question, not meaning to interrupt current topic of abduction scenarios...

Did the sleuther accidentally take the wrong trail, or did he just say it was possible to take a wrong turn? I can’t actually remember but thought he said you COULD take that wrong turn but you would end up at the highway rather than lost farther into the desert. If BT ended up back at the wrong place on the highway, I’d expect that she’d stay on the highway to continue back to the RV as that would likely be shorter than trying to go back via the trails. But who knows?

The sleuther also said the trail was obvious and well marked and I think also confirmed that the RV should have been visible basically all the time from the trail. I just have a lot of trouble seeing how she would have become lost in such a short time, assuming RT’s estimate is accurate.

I asked at one point if there were any marks on the trail and the response was that it was in a remote area in the desert and it was not a marked or frequently travelled trail. Imo

Yes, MsBetsy, I remember that post as well

I’m hoping to expand a bit on your excellent recall for Stripehaven’s question about whether or not a sleuther actually missed the turn

I remembered a 2nd individual posting about going out there.

IIRC, the first sleuther sroad posting about their visit to the location did not take the wrong trail, but said it was possible to continue straight and miss the turn. Then, there was a 2nd, different sleuther at the location on the trail who did briefly miss the turn that led back to the road. My apologies for not being able to find and quote the 2nd kind person’s very helpful post after sroad visited and wrote about the location

JMHO and I think shared by others here: Barbara and RT were well past that turning point and she was approximately 1/4 mile from the road when BT “vanished”. Also JMHO: it hasn’t been established with absolute certainty where RT stopped to take that photo or where he lost sight of her after she rounded that corner

Wanting to make sure it is known these are JMOO, MOO, and IMO

Edited: spelling and minor word changes

Edited again: Thank you to LAhiker pointing out my memory was off...I initially thought the first sleuther was sdhelps but it was sroad

 

[LAhiker]

Answering a previous question, not meaning to interrupt current topic of abduction scenarios...





Yes, MsBetsy, I remember that post as well

I’m hoping to expand a bit on your excellent recall for Stripehaven’s question about whether or not a sleuther actually missed the turn

I remembered a 2nd individual posting about going out there.

IIRC, the first sleuther sdhelp (correct spelling of user name?) posting about their visit to the location did not take the wrong trail, but said it was possible to continue straight and miss the turn. Then, there was a 2nd, different sleuther at the location on the trail who did briefly miss the turn that led back to the road. My apologies for not being able to find and quote the 2nd kind person’s very helpful post after sdhelp (sp?) visited and wrote about the location

JMHO and I think shared by others here: Barbara and RT were well past that turning point and she was approximately 1/4 mile from the road when BT “vanished”. Also JMHO: it hasn’t been established with absolute certainty where RT stopped to take that photo or where he lost sight of her after she rounded that corner

Wanting to make sure it is known these are JMOO, MOO, and IMO

Edited: spelling and minor word changes

Was the first WS person to visit the site @sroad?

 

[al66pine]

BT's "Place Last Seen"

They said the so I would think they searched the initial area thoroughly. Imo

@MsBetsy Thanks for your post.
"...search was conducted based on the last place that she was seen..."
Yes, but as most/all of us have taken turns reminding most/all others, and vice versa, ^ info is per RT's stmts of BT's PLS.
Fact that he said it? Yes. Fact? Who knows?

 

[Kapua]

I don't get your point at all.

That's OK, lots of people don't get me.

 

[10ofRods]

Was the first WS person to visit the site @sroad?

Yes.

I think @sroads was right at the junction where the one wider trail intersects with the main trail (that post that keeps ATV's off the trail should have been right around the "corner" where RT last saw Barbara). We don't know for sure where they parted. Early on, I swear a reporter tweeted that he said he went to a "dry lake bed" (which bolstered my view that it was the Kelso Dune area, but after learning that's not where the search was, it seems it's probably the dry creek bed?)

I do wonder if Barbara, after going to the turn-out, couldn't find the key, headed back over the road - and *then* made the wrong turn - toward the creek bed, perhaps passing over it thinking she'd meet up with RT? I can see in the videos of dogs searching on Day 2 and 3 (MOO), that the handlers are calling them back when they head north toward the dry creek because, presumably, they'd be scenting RT not BT at that point. Maybe.

We have no idea which of those trails they were on or whether they stayed on the main trail until it sort of peters out at the foot of Granite Peak/Mountains/Hills. I do not think they were equipped to climb up the Granite Hills, and the search pictures mostly show the main sandstone boulder formation, so that must be where RT said they were. Those boulders appear to have another trail that goes around behind them.

I think they must have parted near that main "intersection" with the other trail (one end goes to the dry creek). But did she follow him part way down there? Did he wander further than he said or thought he would? Was it really only a minute before he packed up and went after her? (I'm skeptical; I have a husband who says "two seconds" and that means "five minutes"; 5 minutes means 15-20; but we don't separate on hikes).

She could have gone to the lot, found herself locked out, felt very overheated, and walked back across the road thinking she could remember how to find RT, but chose one of the other spur paths. It's a possibility that makes more sense to me than abduction.

 

[Stripehaven]

I asked at one point if there were any marks on the trail and the response was that it was in a remote area in the desert and it was not a marked or frequently travelled trail. Imo

Hmmm. I asked @sroad directly if that trail was obvious and he said yes. This all gets very confusing.

 

[al66pine]

Abductor? Thief? MultiTasker?

....
Point taken that an abductor is not necessarily also a thief.
However, have you ever followed a case where the perp tried to stage a burglary, but there was no sign of forced entry? Have you ever followed a case where a (1)woman went missing, but her purse and keys were at home, nothing disturbed in the house? To me, it looks (2) suspicious that the truck and RV were untouched. MOO

@Kapua Thanks for your post. bbm sbm
Yes, not saying plenty o'cases, but some.
(1) bbm If woman 'went missing' ---
- when she's outside home, then likely she has purse & keys w her.
so no purse & keys are at home, w rest of home also undisturbed.
- when she's inside home at beginning of abduction, abductors are rarely chivalrous/gallant enough (LOL) to allow her to get purse & keys before leaving, so yes, sometimes keys & purse are at home.
W women who 'went missing' voluntarily, I can't think of any where she left purse & keys at home. That plus other things in house 'disturbed' in the sense of things missing.
(2) bbm Untouched, yes, but to gain entry into truck/RV, (presumably) abductor would have had to force entry because (presumably) BT did not have key. Breaking in could take time, could attract attn of man/other person, abductor hypothesized was nearby. And may have thought not much in value inside. So three poss reasons why truck & RV were untouched by our hypo abductor.

 

[kay74]

Did the sleuther accidentally take the wrong trail, or did he just say it was possible to take a wrong turn? I can’t actually remember but thought he said you COULD take that wrong turn but you would end up at the highway rather than lost farther into the desert. If BT ended up back at the wrong place on the highway, I’d expect that she’d stay on the highway to continue back to the RV as that would likely be shorter than trying to go back via the trails. But who knows?

The sleuther also said the trail was obvious and well marked and I think also confirmed that the RV should have been visible basically all the time from the trail. I just have a lot of trouble seeing how she would have become lost in such a short time, assuming RT’s estimate is accurate.

The sleuther took the wrong trail! He/she ended up at the highway. Even if you see something you are headed for, if you get on the wrong trail you will not end up there.

 

[MsBetsy]

Hmmm. I asked @sroad directly if that trail was obvious and he said yes. This all gets very confusing.

I know, it's hard to imagine it without seeing it or walking on it.
The reason I asked was because I've been on remote trails in the Adirondacks that are not frequented very much and there are red arrows that look like they were painted on trees or rocks.
Sometimes what looks like a path may not be the right path, but of course it is a different environment in the desert and there are different landmarks. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

The sleuther took the wrong trail! He/she ended up at the highway. Even if you see something you are headed for, if you get on the wrong trail you will not end up there.

Yes, I remember someone posting about that.
Didn't someone also say it was like a maze? I would think if you aren't paying attention or don't remember exactly which way you came it would be easy to take a wrong turn and not realize it right away. Imo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I know, it's hard to imagine it without seeing it or walking on it.
The reason I asked was because I've been on remote trails in the Adirondacks that are not frequented very much and there are red arrows that look like they were painted on trees or rocks.
Sometimes what looks like a path may not be the right path, but of course it is a different environment in the desert and there are different landmarks. Imo

Yes. I'm sure that trails/paths are obvious but is it obvious which one is the one to use to get to your destination if they are unmarked?

I agree that it's hard to say without being there in person. JMO.