CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #8

[Nikynoo]

I'm obviously no expert, but I would guess that a polygraph might pick up on an omission (rather than an outright lie). So if the two of them parted acrimoniously (eg Barbara wtte "I'm fed up with your faffing about! I'm not waiting one second longer!" and stomped off in a mood) and he didn't mention that detail (and I can understand why he might hold that back), it might register on the polygraph.

if it were me, it would be 'how many b**&^% photos can you take of a rock!'

 

[dbdb11]

what if, just what if, no one was involved in BT's disappearance and she genuinely became lost? is that a possibility? that alone. i am not taking into consideration for my question, if she may have had an argument with someone or any other detail affecting or leading up to said disappearance. reading what little evidence has been made public by L.E and the last known person to see B.T, could this still figure at all in this case? (seems cold to call this a case when it's regarding a human life at the core)
MOO
(ETA: i realise this has been discussed at length, just in light of a sleuther walking in that area and producing photographs recently. going solely on facts given to us.)

It is possible, however much i think she did not get lost. given what we know definitively, the realm of possibility is large.

 

[Curiousobserver]

Of course we don't know the details of that conversation where LE told him he was deceptive. It could have been anything- like "did you have a fight with your wife that day?" or did you ever fight about (insert topic here)? or did you ever have or think about having an affair? etc... He may well have been deceptive about something that has nothing to do with how or why BT is missing.

Of course being deceptive to the police is a red-flag but some still try to hide details of their lives they feel LE is not entitled to know.

This one is just going to have to wait until LE uncovers some discrepancy in the timeline, an incriminating electronic data point, or someone finds "other" evidence in the desert.

 

[PommyMommy]

View attachment 201522 REVISED new flyer. Use this one.

Thank you, looks great!

This is very helpful information! Do you by any chance have the coordinates of the staging area?

34.7935010, -115.6097090 Google Maps

 

[PommyMommy]

It is possible, however much i think she did not get lost. given what we know definitively, the realm of possibility is large.

I have trouble believing BT missed the trail and headed down the pole line road. Hard to believe that one could be mistaken for the other. I also think she would have been past that intersection anyway if RT's account to family is accurate. MOO

Trail (Source: 1. West Valley SAR on Twitter, and 2. AZ - AZ - Barbara Thomas, 69, Timeline, Media, Maps, *NO DISCUSSION* )

Pole Line Road (Source: CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #8)

Disclaimer - I don't know where exactly the photo from West Valley SAR or the one from @sroad was taken. I'm simply illustrating the difference between a trail and a pole road.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I have trouble believing BT missed the trail and headed down the pole line road. Hard to believe that one could be mistaken for the other. I also think she would have been past that intersection anyway if RT's account to family is accurate. MOO

Trail (Source: 1. West Valley SAR on Twitter, and 2. AZ - AZ - Barbara Thomas, 69, Timeline, Media, Maps, *NO DISCUSSION* )

Pole Line Road (Source: CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #8)

Disclaimer - I don't know where exactly the photo from West Valley SAR or the one from @sroad was taken. I'm simply illustrating the difference between a trail and a pole road.

Especially considering that Barbra was an experienced hiker.

MOO

 

[Nikynoo]

I have trouble believing BT missed the trail and headed down the pole line road. Hard to believe that one could be mistaken for the other. I also think she would have been past that intersection anyway if RT's account to family is accurate. MOO

Trail (Source: 1. West Valley SAR on Twitter, and 2. AZ - AZ - Barbara Thomas, 69, Timeline, Media, Maps, *NO DISCUSSION* )

Pole Line Road (Source: CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #8)

Disclaimer - I don't know where exactly the photo from West Valley SAR or the one from @sroad was taken. I'm simply illustrating the difference between a trail and a pole road.

IMO they went to a smaller rock formation on the way back from the larger one, which followed a smaller trail back to the main trail.

 

[kay74]

I have trouble believing BT missed the trail and headed down the pole line road. Hard to believe that one could be mistaken for the other. I also think she would have been past that intersection anyway if RT's account to family is accurate. MOO

Trail (Source: 1. West Valley SAR on Twitter, and 2. AZ - AZ - Barbara Thomas, 69, Timeline, Media, Maps, *NO DISCUSSION* )

Pole Line Road (Source: CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #8)

Disclaimer - I don't know where exactly the photo from West Valley SAR or the one from @sroad was taken. I'm simply illustrating the difference between a trail and a pole road.

I believe there are more trails then the one they went there on and the pole trail. The person who checked it out got on the wrong trail trying to come back!

 

[sroad]

This is very helpful information! Do you by any chance have the coordinates of the staging area?

Sure..

Staging area: 34°47'36.79"N 115°36'35.44"W
Main rock formation: 34°47'44.18"N 115°37'1.96"W
Scenic overlook paved parking lot: 34°48'12.84"N 115°36'43.60"W

 

[squareandrabbet]

Maybe he learned it from LE.
Maybe he told them he was exhausted and asked if it would affect the results, and they said, "It's possible." Imo

Perhaps. I was wondering if he had prior knowledge of lie detector tests for some reason and if so, what that reason might be; but if there was any decent lag time between his being let go by the police post-poly, and him doing a stand-up/sit-down with reporters; he could have Googled it.

 

[Nikynoo]

(Robert, if you end up reading this and Barbara was lost in this area and you've changed mind about the abduction scenario, I would urge you to provide more details, a detailed timeline, and photos from your hike with the public. As a volunteer, I would have gone out there again IF I had something else to work with like a photo showing she was there in that environment, or a map of your hike (the mornings and evenings are quite doable for hiking in the desert as the temps drop nicely up there at close to 4000 feet elevation for those of us who are used to the desert. If LE or your lawyer won't let you share information, then share that info with the VI @dbdb11, so they can share it here).

Chiming in to clarify a few more things. The inaccurate description of, "dry lake bed" that someone mentioned is really a dry wash that runs north around the main rock formation that they allegedly walked up to, see attached photo. I walked the wash several times east (downhill) towards the location where the 5th wheel was parked and even double checked the culverts under the road that come out of the wash and then parallel HH dirt road. SAR also extensively walked that wash east and west of Kelbaker rd with the dogs as I observed those last two days before they suspended their search. Also, as I mentioned before, I chatted with the sheriff on site at their incident command 5th wheel, and he confirmed that that was the exact location that Robert allegedly was parked. So that is where they conducted their search operations from.

Sweeney Granite Mountains Desert Research Center is not visible from the hike, as there is a ridge that comes from the Granite mountains that blocks that view. If one were to hike to the rock formations, and then skirt around the Granite Mountains towards the research center, it would take about 3.7 miles to get there one way and uphill, so quite a ways from the turnout.

The parking lot many folks have mentioned is just a little ways up the road, near the pass, and is like a scenic view parking area. This is the most plausible parking area for cars making a brief stop. Google Maps You can use the scroll wheel on your mouse to zoom in towards the rock formations and see the pole line. I noted this in my observation from having been there not just driving through, but on my hikes. I was able to see the cars with the naked eye from most of the locations in the attached Google Earth snapshot. So again that 360 degree shot that is mentioned as showing cars would be very helpful to see, so we can see where it was taken from. You'd occasionally see a car or two stopped there for a small break and then they'd be off again.

There have also been many weather numbers thrown around over all these pages. If you want the most accurate temps, the weather station at the UC reserve and research center is the most accurate, as it is a scientifically calibrated weather station. Attached are the daily highs for the day they went hiking. It didn't quite reach the triple digits but still hot. Due to it's elevation, it is not so hot as the surrounding valleys. Sweeney Granite Mountains California

And also regarding vegetation and "corners", Robert was not clear about this corner, but from walking there, while the trail looks straight on Google Earth, it actually is meandering enough to loose someone out of sight every 100-150 feet or so. And while the cholla vegetation is only 3-4 feet tall, the creosote and other vegetation can be as high as 6 feet or a bit more at times. So she would have gone out of sight pretty fast after "rounding a corner" so to speak. The 5th wheel would have been visible at most times however, due to it being bright and about 12-14 feet tall would be my guess.

@dbdb11 could you not persuade someone stateside to share this information with @sroad ?

 

[sroad]

Thanks for this @sroad , it is very useful. RTs interview stated that they were on their way back to the truck when he stopped to take another photo. Could this be the small outcrop (see attached, circled in blue) do you think? If so, then I think it more likely that Barbara became lost. @10ofRods - what d you think?

I don't think the blue circle is where they would have walked, as that is getting off the trail, meaning possibly into spiny vegetation (some of it was dense, some OK to walk cross country, see attached photo of a patch of more dense vegetation and cholla). And if she was wearing little clothing, that would not be a good idea. There were plenty of higher spots with rocks they could have walked to take the picture without having to go cross country. The 5th wheel would have been visible most of the time from west/north of Kelbaker rd, as it sticks out over the vegetation. If she had gone east of the road, that's downhill, so then you would more likely lose sight of the 5th wheel, unless moving to higher ground. I'll attach some of the pics again, so you can see. We had our camper parked off HH dirt road about half a mile east from the turnout and again you see how that sticks out too. The incident command post was also a 5th wheel so gives you a good idea as they have a 5th wheel as well. The SAR folks searched early in the mornings, and then later in the afternoons when I was there. Temperatures right now are similar, upper nineties during the afternoons. So early starts would work fine for people who are somewhat acclimatized to dry and warm desert weather. The last photo shows what I mean when I say you could see the partially white 5th wheel fairly easily from .5 mile away from several angles shown. Now that does assume decent eyes, I don't know whether BT had good eye sight.

 

[sroad]

@sroad, thank you for your excellent and helpful post above. Do you have any thoughts on what hill the 360 photo RT talked about might have been taken from? Perhaps there are too many possibilities.

Yes, too many possible spots, hence my request for that photo evidence.

 

[campbellsouup]

Did LE do any searching EAST of the pulloff on Hidden Hill? That riverbed to the east seems to be a higher traffic area than the trail to the west, though there doesn't seem to be any reason to go that direction

 

[Nikynoo]

I don't think the blue circle is where they would have walked, as that is getting off the trail, meaning possibly into spiny vegetation (some of it was dense, some OK to walk cross country, see attached photo of a patch of more dense vegetation and cholla). And if she was wearing little clothing, that would not be a good idea. There were plenty of higher spots with rocks they could have walked to take the picture without having to go cross country. The 5th wheel would have been visible most of the time from west/north of Kelbaker rd, as it sticks out over the vegetation. If she had gone east of the road, that's downhill, so then you would more likely lose sight of the 5th wheel, unless moving to higher ground. I'll attach some of the pics again, so you can see. We had our camper parked off HH dirt road about half a mile east from the turnout and again you see how that sticks out too. The incident command post was also a 5th wheel so gives you a good idea as they have a 5th wheel as well. The SAR folks searched early in the mornings, and then later in the afternoons when I was there. Temperatures right now are similar, upper nineties during the afternoons. So early starts would work fine for people who are somewhat acclimatized to dry and warm desert weather. The last photo shows what I mean when I say you could see the partially white 5th wheel fairly easily from .5 mile away from several angles shown. Now that does assume decent eyes, I don't know whether BT had good eye sight.

Thank you! Very helpful. Beautiful photos too. Its answered one question I had about whether Barbara would be able to see the RV if she came out further down the road (west/north of Kelbaker rd) and I think she would have been able to see it as the road has a higher elevation than the turnout and another about the possible route she may have taken. I think you're correct in that the small crop I highlighted before is unlikely to have been the route they took back.
IMO they may have been making their way back via the wash (see attached), where there is a small outcrop (circled), with several trails leading off.

 

[sroad]

Did LE do any searching EAST of the pulloff on Hidden Hill? That riverbed to the east seems to be a higher traffic area than the trail to the west, though there doesn't seem to be any reason to go that direction

Yes, they did search east of the turnout as well those last two days I was there. But this was not their primary search focus, as a SAR member told me, this was more about making sure "all bases were covered". That area would be good to include in a drone flight, as there are not many places to hide there, as opposed to west of the turnout and road where they allegedly hiked.

 

[MsBetsy]

Perhaps. I was wondering if he had prior knowledge of lie detector tests for some reason and if so, what that reason might be; but if there was any decent lag time between his being let go by the police post-poly, and him doing a stand-up/sit-down with reporters; he could have Googled it.

Yeah, maybe he learned about it from a tv show or the movies.
The fact that he used the term Prime Suspect made me think that too.
I think there was both a movie and a tv show by that name. Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

I have trouble believing BT missed the trail and headed down the pole line road. Hard to believe that one could be mistaken for the other. I also think she would have been past that intersection anyway if RT's account to family is accurate. MOO

Trail (Source: 1. West Valley SAR on Twitter, and 2. AZ - AZ - Barbara Thomas, 69, Timeline, Media, Maps, *NO DISCUSSION* )

Pole Line Road (Source: CA - CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #8)

Disclaimer - I don't know where exactly the photo from West Valley SAR or the one from @sroad was taken. I'm simply illustrating the difference between a trail and a pole road.

Could she have made a wrong turn and then ended up on the pole road? Thinking it would lead her back to the RV? Imo

 

[10ofRods]

BTW, you can see what look like pretty good sized trees/shrubs in the dry creek bed (so it's been a long time since much water pushed through there - but there's underground water for the shrubbery). It too would provide shade and it would provide a pathway back to the area where RT was (approximately). Barbara knew the area. Could have chosen a different route (after not finding the key) for any number of reasons.

I didn't see them search the creek bed (really sandy/silty, would have had footprints) and LE has not answered my inquiries (of course). It just bugs me that we don't know.

Husband and I just made reservations out that way. He's a bit leery of stopping in Mojave Preserve (given past experiences, it's known for certain kinds of crime, all the close by towns have way more crime than average for California, certainly way more than where we live). However, he is almost as curious as I am to measure some things and get some photos.

I am of course hoping we find Barbara before the end of the year.

@bronbaby I think she's out in the desert someplace. I just don't know if near Kelbaker Road or not and even if found, I think CoD will appear to be natural causes. If she's found close to where RT says he last saw her, then I'm going to give up on suspecting foul play. But if she's further away (even a mile), I'm going to remain really suspicious about what happened.

Searchers are volunteers, they vary in their stamina and training. This was not a traditional grid search for 9 days, although hopefully they did do a grid search for the square mile around where she disappeared (and hopefully more).

(Robert, if you end up reading this and Barbara was lost in this area and you've changed mind about the abduction scenario, I would urge you to provide more details, a detailed timeline, and photos from your hike with the public. As a volunteer, I would have gone out there again IF I had something else to work with like a photo showing she was there in that environment, or a map of your hike (the mornings and evenings are quite doable for hiking in the desert as the temps drop nicely up there at close to 4000 feet elevation for those of us who are used to the desert. If LE or your lawyer won't let you share information, then share that info with the VI @dbdb11, so they can share it here).

Chiming in to clarify a few more things. The inaccurate description of, "dry lake bed" that someone mentioned is really a dry wash that runs north around the main rock formation that they allegedly walked up to, see attached photo. I walked the wash several times east (downhill) towards the location where the 5th wheel was parked and even double checked the culverts under the road that come out of the wash and then parallel HH dirt road. SAR also extensively walked that wash east and west of Kelbaker rd with the dogs as I observed those last two days before they suspended their search. Also, as I mentioned before, I chatted with the sheriff on site at their incident command 5th wheel, and he confirmed that that was the exact location that Robert allegedly was parked. So that is where they conducted their search operations from.

Sweeney Granite Mountains Desert Research Center is not visible from the hike, as there is a ridge that comes from the Granite mountains that blocks that view. If one were to hike to the rock formations, and then skirt around the Granite Mountains towards the research center, it would take about 3.7 miles to get there one way and uphill, so quite a ways from the turnout.

The parking lot many folks have mentioned is just a little ways up the road, near the pass, and is like a scenic view parking area. This is the most plausible parking area for cars making a brief stop. Google Maps You can use the scroll wheel on your mouse to zoom in towards the rock formations and see the pole line. I noted this in my observation from having been there not just driving through, but on my hikes. I was able to see the cars with the naked eye from most of the locations in the attached Google Earth snapshot. So again that 360 degree shot that is mentioned as showing cars would be very helpful to see, so we can see where it was taken from. You'd occasionally see a car or two stopped there for a small break and then they'd be off again.

There have also been many weather numbers thrown around over all these pages. If you want the most accurate temps, the weather station at the UC reserve and research center is the most accurate, as it is a scientifically calibrated weather station. Attached are the daily highs for the day they went hiking. It didn't quite reach the triple digits but still hot. Due to it's elevation, it is not so hot as the surrounding valleys. Sweeney Granite Mountains California

And also regarding vegetation and "corners", Robert was not clear about this corner, but from walking there, while the trail looks straight on Google Earth, it actually is meandering enough to loose someone out of sight every 100-150 feet or so. And while the cholla vegetation is only 3-4 feet tall, the creosote and other vegetation can be as high as 6 feet or a bit more at times. So she would have gone out of sight pretty fast after "rounding a corner" so to speak. The 5th wheel would have been visible at most times however, due to it being bright and about 12-14 feet tall would be my guess.

Thank you so much for this. Glad to hear you walked the dry wash. The only person who said it was a dry lake bed was a reporter tweeting from the search on the first day. That was also the day that media said the search area was 14 miles further north.

But these inaccuracies remain in the record. Since some of us are contacting locals who might be out in the area for other reasons, and sending out posters about Barbara, it's so good to have this really excellent summary to help guide them.

Especially, thanks for the height on those creosote bushes. Lots to digest and very helpful

 

[10ofRods]

Thank you for all the new information. I’ve been trying to imagine why Robert would make no effort to establish that BT was with him when he stopped for ice. I’m stumped. ETA: any ideas anyone?

I don't make any effort to establish that my husband is with me if I stop at a gas station. Why would anyone do that? To my mind, this was an ordinary stop. Whatever went wrong, it was later.

Coordinates for the staging are:

34.793501, -115.609709