Found Deceased CA - Blaze Bernstein, 19, Lake Forest, 2 Jan 2018 #5 *Arrest*

[LAhiker]

I disagree. I don't approve of what SW did but unless you're a man who was born and raised in the type of culture that SW was apparently raised in you can't understand what SW may have been feeling.
And if the reports are correct that Blaze outed SW, well, then, I've lost a lot of respect for Blaze. That is a cardinal sin among gay men, you DO NOT, EVER, under ANY circumstances out someone and if this was done to SW out of spite that makes it all the worse. I AM NOT saying that Blaze "deserved" anything that happened to him so don't interpret my words like that but I am saying that I can understand SW's anger, resentment and his feelings and if this report is true I have a great deal of sympathy for him.

I was outed once out of spite and while I didn't murder anyone I did deliver a solid thrashing, as our British friends might say, to the offender. Outing me in the way that person did could have gotten me seriously hurt or killed because he outed me to a group of good ol' redneck boys who lived in our dorm who after learning of my sexuality made it quite clear to me that I was an abomination, a mistake and a "vile sinner" and that the bible commands gay men to be stoned to death Two of them were expelled from the university the following year for posting KKK recruitment posters and applications to join the Klan in our dormitory common room. In the interests of full disclosure, I attended the Univ of Texas.

JMO

I'm sorry that happened to you. I know that it's wrong to out people. I appreciate Gone Girl's comments.

At the same time, I don't think we have enough context from those sentences in the OC Register piece to evaluate Blaze's actions. Very speculatively, here are some things we (or at least I) don't know:

Things I don't know about BB:
-Who did BB text about this? Did he text a few close friends, or a wider group? Did he text "everyone" deliberately, or did was he texting a trusted friend and make a very bad "reply to all" error?
-Had SW already had similar interactions with others -- was SW already known by many in the high school community to be gay? What did BB think others already knew?
-Could SW and BB have had some prior relationship that BB thought was known to others? Conversely, had SW expressed anti-gay sentiments that made it more tempting to out him? (I'm not saying he did, just that this can sometimes be a dynamic when people out others.)
-Depending on what others knew, or what BB thought they knew, was BB's "uh oh" an acknowledgement that he'd outed SW, or was it merely an acknowledgement that he'd mentioned SW coming on to him after he said he wouldn't? (In other words, if he thought SW was already out, it could have been a betrayal of a confidence but not to his mind outing.)

And then there's a lot we don't know about SW:
-From last summer to this year, did SW think of himself as straight, gay, or bisexual? How did he feel about that? What is his family's attitude toward being gay? What about the attitudes of those he hung around with and looked up to?
-What if anything had SW done that led to BB's text?
-What did SW think others knew about him? Did he know what BB had texted? If so, who did he think BB had texted? What did this mean to him?

If BB did indeed out SW, that might definitely have been a motive (though of course not a justification). But there may also have been other motives, such as spurned advances. JMO.

 

[stlrfninca]

The OC Register has made a lot of errors in their reporting getting BB confused with SW. Very bad journalsim!

Can you point specifically to where their errors are? I have found their reporting to be mostly accurate.

 

[Elley Mae]

I'm curious, how would you have known otherwise? Do you have personal knowledge of either of these two? Did you go to OCSA with them?

BTW, I love your tagline in your sig... so true!

His photos/images.

 

[stlrfninca]

Do we know or has it be said/confirmed/reported that BB was gay?

This is known from multiple sources, including his own social media. I don't think there is any debate whatsoever about this fact.

 

[ninij9]

Maybe SW is homophobic and hates himself for being gay. Maybe they did have sex. I think they probably did, in a sleeping bag, in the park.

These are my thoughts exactly. I don't feel it's as dramatic as "Blaze spurned him" or anything like it. I think he had a sexual encounter/encounters with his victim and either was self loathing or afraid Blaze would out him.

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[oceanblueeyes]

In average day-to-day life I don't see why 'outing' should be an accepted behavior. I do feel there is a gray area in cases when the individual being outed is doing harm to the gay community.

There was a report regarding an imgur page in which SW was catfishing and then exposing gay men. I have not seen this page, nor do I have verification of this or other activities that might be construed as proactively harming such individuals. Furthermore we do not know what Blaze knew of any of this, or whether he was aware of some other actions by SW that could be placed in this category. As the story unfolds, I hope we'll find answers to these questions, but as it stands there is the possibility that Blaze was being more cavalier about SW that he should have been.

We have no idea whether the interaction back in June was instigated by one party or the other. We're still under a cloud of uncertainty about events leading up to Blaze's murder the night of January 2. I do have the impression that SW was fully aware of BB's sexuality, which make me question the validity of SW's 'he tried to kiss me' defense. What was he expecting to do at Hobby Lobby, discuss model railroading? Many questions to answer.

Excerpt from your post.
There was a report regarding an imgur page in which SW was catfishing and then exposing gay men.

If this is true, and I suspect it is then I find this much more reprehensible than Blaze telling two of his close friends about SW.

So did SW do the cat-fishing as some type of mean spirited sport concerning other human beings' lives? To make them believe he was also gay and once they fell for his lies he exposed and humiliated them where they could possibly be in danger if they were still closet gays?

Could Blaze have been catfished into believing he was meeting another person in the park that night?

If SW was outing gays himself for the fun of it then he has no room to talk about anyone else.

I hope the DA does charge him with a hate crime. I have seen many cases where the defendant and their attorneys tries to place all of the blame on the murdered victim and it never works. In fact most juries are very turned off when the victim is blamed for their own death/murder and find it very offensive.

I don't think the DA will plea this case either. No one has a right to stab anyone over 20 times just because the victim may have said something untoward the murderer didn't like. If that was a legal excuse for murdering someone then countless murderers would walk or gets reduced sentences. Thank goodness most juries are smart enough to see through all of that.

The jury... if it goes to trial isn't going to buy 'he outed me so therefore I had a right to kill him.' or 'he tried to kiss me so he deserved to die.' That would send a horrible message if he was excused for his horrific murder for that reason.

JMO

 

[Coquette]

I have not seen any hard evidence that BB “outed” SW. SW is clearly a damaged, hateful, disturbed person — IMO. I would take anything he says or has said with a grain of salt. I am finding it incredibly hard to navigate all of the victim blaming posts based on tiny snippets of information that has been released. Seriously. Two words: Victim Friendly.

 

[PaulR]

IMO ...

This might be against popular opinion here, but I don't believe Sam is gay. I think he was baiting and he didn't like that someone thought he was or eluded to the fact he is gay. Makes me think that he used whatever method possible (grooming) to get trust and then do what he did. He seems more like a predator. Again, this is my opinion and based on his Saboteur username postings and followings.

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I've wondered since we started seeing his SM presence if everything wasn't designed to refute rumors of him being gay and thus "not masculine."

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[Tripplogan]

Forgive me if any of this has been stated already. I think I am up to date, but I could be wrong. If the affidavit includes SW's account of a kiss from BB, does this mean SW has confessed? Even with these new details, there is a lot we don't know--especially the extent of the relationship between SW and BB. Were SW and BB together when BB perceived that SW was going to hit on him, or was BB referring to online flirting? If they were together in June, they may have been together before that.

As for BB outing SW-- I am gay and I do agree it is wrong to out someone, but I am not clear from what we have how extensive the outing was. I know BB said he messaged everyone, but that seems like a joke. LE found 2 communications he sent to 2 friends, which suggests (unless there's more) he told only those friends. Many of us confide in a close friend or two concerning our romantic life. If Blaze contained the revelation to only 2 friends, his intention may not have been to out SW. Of course, there is the issue of how many people those 2 told. Do we know that SW was aware that BB had "outed" him?

 

[stlrfninca]

I'm sorry that happened to you. I know that it's wrong to out people. I appreciate Gone Girl's comments.

At the same time, I don't think we have enough context from those sentences in the OC Register piece to evaluate Blaze's actions. Very speculatively, here are some things we (or at least I) don't know:

Things I don't know about BB:
-Who did BB text about this? Did he text a few close friends, or a wider group? Did he text "everyone" deliberately, or did was he texting a trusted friend and make a very bad "reply to all" error?
-Had SW already had similar interactions with others -- was SW already known by many in the high school community to be gay? What did BB think others already knew?
-Could SW and BB have had some prior relationship that BB thought was known to others? Conversely, had SW expressed anti-gay sentiments that made it more tempting to out him? (I'm not saying he did, just that this can sometimes be a dynamic when people out others.)
-Depending on what others knew, or what BB thought they knew, was BB's "uh oh" an acknowledgement that he'd outed SW, or was it merely an acknowledgement that he'd mentioned SW coming on to him after he said he wouldn't? (In other words, if he thought SW was already out, it could have been a betrayal of a confidence but not to his mind outing.)

And then there's a lot we don't know about SW:
-From last summer to this year, did SW think of himself as straight, gay, or bisexual? How did he feel about that? What is his family's attitude toward being gay? What about the attitudes of those he hung around with and looked up to?
-What if anything had SW done that led to BB's text?
-What did SW think others knew about him? Did he know what BB had texted? If so, who did he think BB had texted? What did this mean to him?

If BB did indeed out SW, that might definitely have been a motive (though of course not a justification). But there may also have been other motives, such as spurned advances. JMO.

Absolutely. I think you and I are in basically the same place on this. We know a few things somewhat superfluously, and we are trying to craft theories by filling in the gaps of what we don't know. The crux of this and the degree of evil, whether it was a hate crime, crime of passion, revenge, pre-meditated, etc. is all tied to the complexities of the relationship between BB and SW, of which in the big scheme of things we know very little as a point of fact.

There's not much I can imagine we could learn to justify what happened, but we certainly have a lot to learn to be able to accurately understand why it happened. I think that's where many of us are at. Groping for answers to explain why such a senseless killing occurred and two young lives had to be ruined.

 

[Elainera]

I have not seen any hard evidence that BB “outed” SW. SW is clearly a damaged, hateful, disturbed person — IMO. I would take anything he says or has said with a grain of salt. I am finding it incredibly hard to navigate all of the victim blaming posts based on tiny snippets of information that has been released. Seriously. Two words: Victim Friendly.

This.

 

[PlayByAnsible]

I have not seen any hard evidence that BB “outed” SW. SW is clearly a damaged, hateful, disturbed person — IMO. I would take anything he says or has said with a grain of salt. I am finding it incredibly hard to navigate all of the victim blaming posts based on tiny snippets of information that has been released. Seriously. Two words: Victim Friendly.

I agree.

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[clearskies1]

Forgive me if any of this has been stated already. I think I am up to date, but I could be wrong. If the affidavit includes SW's account of a kiss from BB, does this mean SW has confessed? Even with these new details, there is a lot we don't know--especially the extent of the relationship between SW and BB. Were SW and BB together when BB perceived that SW was going to hit on him, or was BB referring to online flirting? If they were together in June, they may have been together before that.

As for BB outing SW-- I am gay and I do agree it is wrong to out someone, but I am not clear from what we have how extensive the outing was. I know BB said he messaged everyone, but that seems like a joke. LE found 2 communications he sent to 2 friends, which suggests (unless there's more) he told only those friends. Many of us confide in a close friend or two concerning our romantic life. If Blaze contained the revelation to only 2 friends, his intention may not have been to out SW. Of course, there is the issue of how many people those 2 told. Do we know that SW was aware that BB had "outed" him?

BBM. No, we don't know what, if anything, SW knew about that.

 

[LAhiker]

I share others concerns about whether the OCRegister leaks from the affidavit may have been selective.
https://www.ocregister.com/2018/01/...ed-at-least-20-times-in-possible-act-of-rage/

A short way into the article, it says "[FONT=&quot]A search warrant affidavit obtained by the Orange County Register indicates that 19-year-old Bernstein may have been planning to sexually pursue Woodward."

[/FONT]While that may be what the affidavit says, it bothers me that other news stories picking up on it have had titles such as "Blaze Bernstein killing: Affidavit hints at sexual pursuit," meaning, BB's possible pursuit of SW.

I mean, had BB pursued SW, there would be nothing wrong with that, but I really doubt that happened. At this point, we only have SW's word for it, and after all his lies I don't believe a word he says. I wonder if someone is trying to set up a "gay panic" defense.

The Register also quotes the bit about BB possibly outing SW. I discuss this in an earlier comment but here I'll just say it's another thing that makes BB look bad.

Of course, BB being stabbed 20 times doesn't exactly make SW look good. In general, I appreciate the Register's reporting. These excerpts may be random rather than selective.

But I wonder if someone -- not sure who -- might be trying to protect SW here or to make sure BB's parents don't complain about a plea deal if the alternative is seeing their dead son dragged through the mud. Just my opinion.

 

[Mica]

Apologies if this has already been posted. Toxicology tests were done.





https://www.facebook.com/OCSheriff/...93196209677/10155616784444678/?type=3&theater

 

[Gooddeeds]

I imagine the social media accounts/text/private msgs of many of BB and SW friends will be pursued for evidence. This makes me want to imploy even more discretion in all written communication.

Without rehashing all the SM exchanges, whether in truth or hearsay I do find it very disturbing that a good part of it has proven to be truth. There was definitely a leak, no way to dispute that. It’s unsettling that some were afraid to speak up before the arrest for fear of their lives. What do you do with that? I completely understand the logical fear and reservation but I hope there is a lesson to that point as well.

 

[Hraefn]

Legally, an act of rage would seem to indicate a crime of passion, which would mean the killing was not premeditated. SW's story seems to indicate crime of passion and I hope enough evidence exists to show whether or not this is actually true. It could just be an attempt to lower the charges.

 

[clearskies1]

I share others concerns about whether the OCRegister leaks from the affidavit may have been selective.
https://www.ocregister.com/2018/01/...ed-at-least-20-times-in-possible-act-of-rage/

A short way into the article, it says "[FONT="]A search warrant affidavit obtained by the Orange County Register indicates that 19-year-old Bernstein may have been planning to sexually pursue Woodward."

[/FONT]While that may be what the affidavit says, it bothers me that other news stories picking up on it have had titles such as "Blaze Bernstein killing: Affidavit hints at sexual pursuit," meaning, BB's possible pursuit of SW.

I mean, had BB pursued SW, there would be nothing wrong with that, but I really doubt that happened. At this point, we only have SW's word for it, and after all his lies I don't believe a word he says. I wonder if someone is trying to set up a "gay panic" defense.

The Register also quotes the bit about BB possibly outing SW. I discuss this in an earlier comment but here I'll just say it's another thing that makes BB look bad.

Of course, BB being stabbed 20 times doesn't exactly make SW look good. In general, I appreciate the Register's reporting. These excerpts may be random rather than selective.

But I wonder if someone -- not sure who -- might be trying to protect SW here or to make sure BB's parents don't complain about a plea deal if the alternative is seeing their dead son dragged through the mud. Just my opinion.

BBM. Yes, I found it odd that the Register said that the affidavit indicated that BB "may have been planning to sexually pursue Woodward." In my mind the Register did not quote anything from the affidavit that really supported that conclusion.

 

[PaulR]

Legally, an act of rage would seem to indicate a crime of passion, which would mean the killing was not premeditated. SW's story seems to indicate crime of passion and I hope enough evidence exists to show whether or not this is actually true. It could just be an attempt to lower the charges.

Maybe but if it can be proven that SW knew about BB letting his secret out, that plays to premeditation.

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[Gussified]

[Quote Originally Posted by Gussified]
Right I’m with you. Possibilities:
1) completely unrelated to murder, just a coincidence (unlikely)
2) rented before the murder for the purpose of murder, indicates premeditation (but LE says not premeditated, so probably not this)]Quote


On 2-‘LE says not premeditated’. I haven’t seen that before, please point me to that link. TIA

It was during the press conference on 1/11, just after they found the body, but before the arrest. The OCSD spokesman said it. Went back thru the posts and all the links to the PC are either broken or have been updated. But I recall hearing directly from the OCSD spokesman’s mouth during the PC.

Don’t know how to link to previous threads, but it’s around post #1008 in thread #3.