CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #10

[zwiebel]

Respectfully snipped:

I believe the Model A car was in the garage. It is #29 on the “memorabilia” list that JuM wrote: “29. 1923 Model A Doctor’s Coupe what ever it is belongs to Joseph and Andrew”

cloudajo, I wasn't going to say but I just have to sleuth myself - I read that in the original list, saw the word model, and thought it was really sweet that young members of Bob's family wanted one of his little cars that you put in a cabinet, for sentimental reasons only!

 

[Oriah]

Bob was maybe/probably/definitely wearing an all-white outfit the day he disappeared (surely that at least, should have been memorable? As memorable as if someone had been, say, naked?) Does anyone else think it sounds like the result of someone being asked a question they can't answer, then coming up with the first color they can think of, off the top of their head.......and keeping right on going.

I've been wondering if the bathroom that needed repairs that day was Bob's regular one - where he might take his bath in the morning.

Do any of our people with crime scene knowledge know if there would be any chance of forensic evidence being gathered from a water outlet/ drain after a period of three years?

Has anyone here seen any pictures of Bob wearing an all-white outfit - or even a white shirt - in say, the last ten years of his life. I have only seen him in pretty colorful ones but am happy to be corrected!

BBM: I can only speak from a K9 perspective, but I will say that we have isolated scent from some rather old drains. I imagine if a dog can do it, then likely a human forensic specialist can.

You bring up another interesting point that I've been mulling over for some time now- drain traps.
Wonder if they are original and intact.

 

[zwiebel]

Drain traps which might have captured....flesh, hair, fragments of bone?

 

[Oriah]

Drain traps which might have captured....flesh, hair, fragments of bone?

A couple of years back we started using drainage traps and other common (all 'used') plumbing materials in training scent isolation. It's been surprising to me how long scent remains in those specific materials- pvc for example- and those specific environments.

I'd love to see a specifically trained K9 or two work the plumbing in the Harrods residence.
There seems to have been a lot of water and waste usage going on at the time Mr. Harrod disappeared.

 

[zwiebel]

A couple of years back we started using drainage traps and other common (all 'used') plumbing materials in training scent isolation. It's been surprising to me how long scent remains in those specific materials- pvc for example- and those specific environments.

I'd love to see a specifically trained K9 or two work the plumbing in the Harrods residence.
There seems to have been a lot of water and waste usage going on at the time Mr. Harrod disappeared.

Oriah, thank you. That seems amazing to me that even scent might be detected in that situation.

OT for one minute but maybe on topic too, so I hope I don't get zapped by one of those magic mods who zoom about - I haven't worked out how to contact people off thread yet - in my own family's case, I've finally worked out that the groundbreaking stuff was nothing to do with tracker dogs- they've existed for centuries. It was cadaver dogs that were used for the first time in my aunt's case, and why there were so many doubts. For reasons all of you on this thread will likely work out, newspaper stories etc were all thrown away and this was pre-internet, but I do seem to remember the dogs were shipped in, maybe from the USA? Is there anywhere I can go to find out about the history of K9? It's a subject I can't quite let go of. Sorry!

 

[Oriah]

Oriah, thank you. That seems amazing to me that even scent might be detected in that situation.

OT for one minute but maybe on topic too, so I hope I don't get zapped by one of those magic mods who zoom about - I haven't worked out how to contact people off thread yet - in my own family's case, I've finally worked out that the groundbreaking stuff was nothing to do with tracker dogs- they've existed for centuries. It was cadaver dogs that were used for the first time in my aunt's case, and why there were so many doubts. For reasons all of you on this thread will likely work out, newspaper stories etc were all thrown away and this was pre-internet, but I do seem to remember the dogs were shipped in, maybe from the USA? Is there anywhere I can go to find out about the history of K9? It's a subject I can't quite let go of. Sorry!

It is not uncommon these days to have working K9's travel across the country, or even to other countries or overseas to work specific jobs. Most of the time these dogs are sponsored by a federal agency (at least here in the US) and have specific funding and training standards.

When was your aunt found, and how long had she been missing for when she was found? This would give me an idea of what resources may have been available at the time. I apologize if I overlooked this info somewhere, and I am so very, very sorry for your loss.

Regarding Mr. Harrod's case- I think if he was deceased at the time he disappeared, there is a good possibility that HR scent remains either in the residence, in a vehicle, or places in between such as the garage, side yard, back yard etc. To specifically trained K9s, DNA is a scent that lasts and lasts.
Jmvho tho.

 

[Cubby]

FWIW, I've often thought about using SAR dogs in Mr. Harrod's home, however his first wife Georgia passed away in the same home. I've often thought Georgia's passing in the home would attribute to dismissing any evidence SAR dogs might find in Bob's home.

I'm sure there is a particular area Georgia stayed in while she was at home during her hospice time, but I imagine any good defense attorney attributing human decomp scent in area's it was known Georgia did not go, to others in the home transfering the scent.

The above is my laymans speculation, but I imagine that being a reason dogs might not work in this case, if they were used.

How would they determine if the scent belonged to Georgia or Bob?

 

[Oriah]

FWIW, I've often thought about using SAR dogs in Mr. Harrod's home, however his first wife Georgia passed away in the same home. I've often thought Georgia's passing in the home would attribute to dismissing any evidence SAR dogs might find in Bob's home.

I'm sure there is a particular area Georgia stayed in while she was at home during her hospice time, but I imagine any good defense attorney attributing human decomp scent in area's it was known Georgia did not go, to others in the home transfering the scent.

The above is my laymans speculation, but I imagine that being a reason dogs might not work in this case, if they were used.

How would they determine if the scent belonged to Georgia or Bob?

I agree that a defense attorney could tear apart K9 handler testimony, unfortunately. They do even when the evidence is fully supported by forensics.
But on the plus side, there are K9s trained on aged HR scent derived from specific DNA- so in other words, trained to identify a specific persons decomp scent. At this point, I think that's the kind of working K9 that might possibly hold up in court in Mr. Harrod's case.

Wishful thinking on my part?

 

[Cubby]

Aged HR scent, what does the HR mean? IIRC, the testimony in Bianca Jones case with regards to the SAR dog hitting on human decomp was that the dog could not determine whose scent, just that it was human decomp. Nor could the dog determine the gender or age of the victim. I'm adding this info from Bianca's case only as an example of my level of understanding cadaver dogs.

I'm not really clear on what you mean by HR scent from specific dna. Could you further explain? how would that differentiate from that of a cadaver dog? If it can be differentiated? Especially in Mr. Harrod's case where we know Georgia passed away in the home in March of 2008.

 

[zwiebel]

Georgia's and Bob's scents would be so intertwined, wouldn't they? But search dogs' scent sense seems to be better than our sight in many ways, and we could easily differentiate between Bob and Georgia, even if they were standing together....I was thinking more in terms of somewhere Georgia certainly didn't die - the tub, the garage, Bob's vehicle, or more probably another. Do we know if Bob's vehicle is still around?

 

[believe09]

:bow: Oriah-we are so lucky to have you posting on this thread with us. Any of you who are newer to WS, Oriah is a verified K9 handler and SAR professional. She is a complete go to person for me. You can take her words to the bank.

 

[Cubby]

Georgia's and Bob's scents would be so intertwined, wouldn't they? But search dogs' scent sense seems to be better than our sight in many ways, and we could easily differentiate between Bob and Georgia, even if they were standing together....I was thinking more in terms of somewhere Georgia certainly didn't die - the tub, the garage, Bob's vehicle, or more probably another. Do we know if Bob's vehicle is still around?

See this is where it gets confusing for me. A scent dog can distinquish between different persons scents. A cadaver dog, according to my understanding, can detect human decomposition from from other types of decomp.

My thoughts were anyone who was with Georgia when she passed away in the home could possibly transfer any scents that occured after death.

I guess, my question then becomes how would it be distinquished that cadaver scent belonged to Bob and not transfered through the house by someone who may have hugged, touched or moved her after she passed away?

 

[zwiebel]

It is not uncommon these days to have working K9's travel across the country, or even to other countries or overseas to work specific jobs. Most of the time these dogs are sponsored by a federal agency (at least here in the US) and have specific funding and training standards.

When was your aunt found, and how long had she been missing for when she was found? This would give me an idea of what resources may have been available at the time. I apologize if I overlooked this info somewhere, and I am so very, very sorry for your loss.

Regarding Mr. Harrod's case- I think if he was deceased at the time he disappeared, there is a good possibility that HR scent remains either in the residence, in a vehicle, or places in between such as the garage, side yard, back yard etc. To specifically trained K9s, DNA is a scent that lasts and lasts.
Jmvho tho.

I don't want to distract from Bob's thread ( hoping he's met my aunt up there because once I saw through the character blackening I could see she was lovely, fun and kind and would be a great friend) so just to answer quickly, my aunt was disappeared for 7 years without even a suggestion she was suspiciously missing because of a total character assassination ( my uncle was really good).

Soon as the report finally went in, it was over quickly. It was the late 70s and if there were any protocols in place then, they didn't come over with the dogs. My uncle was allowed onto the crime scene (his garden) while they were searching, and made sure he stood right on top of the buriel site to hamper their search ( he laughed and boasted about it after). LE here had little confidence any dog could detect a dead body and were nervous about all the press attention. I think the dogs were brought in because the garden was large, and backed onto even larger grounds (where I spent much of my childhood so the whole thing was just so awful).

As soon as the dogs were allowed to do their job properly, they did it. They found her. Now they find lots of people, so I like to think some good came out of my aunt's death. Afterwards I discovered some people in my family had harboured suspicions but had - not a conspiracy of silence - so much as a conspiracy of no questions.

And that brings me right back to Bob and why I'm here. If there is anybody here reading who can help, do it now. Or face the fact you're leaving a legacy that, decades down the line, your children will still be trying to find the answers for, still be haunted by.

Now, back to Bob! He's coming home soon!

 

[zwiebel]

BBM

:bow: Oriah-we are so lucky to have you posting on this thread with us. Any of you who are newer to WS, Oriah is a verified K9 handler and SAR professional. She is a complete go to person for me. You can take her words to the bank.

Seconded! Thank you Oriah.

 

[GrainneDhu]

A couple of years back we started using drainage traps and other common (all 'used') plumbing materials in training scent isolation. It's been surprising to me how long scent remains in those specific materials- pvc for example- and those specific environments.

I'd love to see a specifically trained K9 or two work the plumbing in the Harrods residence.
There seems to have been a lot of water and waste usage going on at the time Mr. Harrod disappeared.

As this is Fontelle's residence, I believe she could give consent for such a search without having to consult the conservators for permission.

Of course, it would be very interesting to consult the conservators with such a question, provide them with some written materials to demonstrate the accuracy of trained scent dogs in such situations and then see if they want to give consent.

I don't know where you are located, Oriah, but if Fontelle were willing, perhaps you could shake the grapevine a bit to find someone with a properly trained dog who might be interested.

 

[GrainneDhu]

FWIW, I've often thought about using SAR dogs in Mr. Harrod's home, however his first wife Georgia passed away in the same home. I've often thought Georgia's passing in the home would attribute to dismissing any evidence SAR dogs might find in Bob's home.

I'm sure there is a particular area Georgia stayed in while she was at home during her hospice time, but I imagine any good defense attorney attributing human decomp scent in area's it was known Georgia did not go, to others in the home transfering the scent.

The above is my laymans speculation, but I imagine that being a reason dogs might not work in this case, if they were used.

How would they determine if the scent belonged to Georgia or Bob?

I may well be mistaken but I think I recall reading somewhere that in the last months of her life, Georgia was mostly confined to a hospital style bed located on the main floor of the house; she was no longer able to use the staircase elevator.

I'm pretty certain, though, that no one dragged Georgia's body throughout the house to distribute HR scent all over it.

 

[GrainneDhu]

See this is where it gets confusing for me. A scent dog can distinquish between different persons scents. A cadaver dog, according to my understanding, can detect human decomposition from from other types of decomp.

My thoughts were anyone who was with Georgia when she passed away in the home could possibly transfer any scents that occured after death.

I guess, my question then becomes how would it be distinquished that cadaver scent belonged to Bob and not transfered through the house by someone who may have hugged, touched or moved her after she passed away?

Be interesting to know what time Georgia died and how soon her body was removed from the home to wherever it went next.

 

[Cubby]

I may well be mistaken but I think I recall reading somewhere that in the last months of her life, Georgia was mostly confined to a hospital style bed located on the main floor of the house; she was no longer able to use the staircase elevator.

I'm pretty certain, though, that no one dragged Georgia's body throughout the house to distribute HR scent all over it.

I'm sure no one dragged Georgia's body through the house, what an awful thought..... I didn't mean to imply anyone dragged her remains through the house and I'm sorry if it came across that way. :blushing:

I was thinking along the lines of it not being uncommon to hold the hand of someone as they pass or hug and kiss them goodbye after they have passed but before the coroner has picked them up from the home. If that occured with anyone in the home at the time of Georgia's passing, how would that affect the scent of human decomp within the home?

I'm still unclear on the definition of HR scent and still unclear on how a scent dog could differentiate between human decomp between different people. The dog handler in Bianca Jones case testified it could not be done and the dogs could only detect human decomp. Not whose decomp, age, gender etc. Hope that makes sense. I'm just trying to cover all bases here with understanding how the SAR dogs work.

 

[believe09]

I'm sure no one dragged Georgia's body through the house, what an awful thought..... I didn't mean to imply anyone dragged her remains through the house and I'm sorry if it came across that way. :blushing:

I was thinking along the lines of it not being uncommon to hold the hand of someone as they pass or hug and kiss them goodbye after they have passed but before the coroner has picked them up from the home. If that occured with anyone in the home at the time of Georgia's passing, how would that affect the scent of human decomp within the home?

I'm still unclear on the definition of HR scent and still unclear on how a scent dog could differentiate between human decomp between different people. The dog handler in Bianca Jones case testified it could not be done and the dogs could only detect human decomp. Not whose decomp, age, gender etc. Hope that makes sense. I'm just trying to cover all bases here with understanding how the SAR dogs work.

I wont speak for Grainne Cubby, but I feel that there was some irony in her post...I dont think you said anything wrong. I think it is a very valid question-I need to understand too.

 

[zwiebel]

I wont speak for Grainne Cubby, but I feel that there was some irony in her post...I dont think you said anything wrong. I think it is a very valid question-I need to understand too.

That's exactly what I thought too......