CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #10

[shana]

I dont believe that for a hot minute. I have nothing to base this on except for instinct and opinion, I hasten to say.

If it is true, I find it very very curious.

If it is true (and I have no sound reason to believe it is not, plus my good mind doesn't work on instinct), it isn't curious to me at all that they bathed Mrs Harrod and changed her clothes.

I base my opinion on common sense and with due respect.

~jmo~

 

[zwiebel]

Thanks Shana, any thoughts on the chances of forensic evidence left in the house re Bob?

 

[SuziQ]

snip & bolding, mine



NO.

~jmo~

Really? I've unfortunately have had many family and friends who have passed away. And yet, no one outside a funeral home has ever provided such personal care. I know it's common in some faiths but not in general in the U.S.

 

[shana]

Really? I've unfortunately have had many family and friends who have passed away. And yet, no one outside a funeral home has ever provided such personal care. I know it's common in some faiths but not in general in the U.S.

This is not a faith issue.

zwiebel added the following to her question:

Obviously, I only mean if they have died an expected, natural death.

We know that Mrs Harrod had a caregiver who was named and remembered in her obit. It's likely said caregiver kept her patient bathed as long as she was her charge, and certainly may have cleaned her body and clothing if needed after death.

Why is this sensitive subject being discussed at all? What does it have to do with the disappearance of Mr Harrod?

~jmo~

 

[zwiebel]

This is not a faith issue.

zwiebel added the following to her question:

Obviously, I only mean if they have died an expected, natural death.

We know that Mrs Harrod had a caregiver who was named and remembered in her obit. It's likely said caregiver kept her patient bathed as long as she was her charge, and certainly may have cleaned her body and clothing if needed after death.

Why is this sensitive subject being discussed at all? What does it have to do with the disappearance of Mr Harrod?

~jmo~

Well, I know the death of a person is sensitive, but I think it is because some of us feel that the deaths of two people may have taken place in that house (in a relatively short period of time) and one of them may have been murdered. For forensic evidence purposes, you have to discuss them both.

 

[SuziQ]

This is not a faith issue.

zwiebel added the following to her question:

Obviously, I only mean if they have died an expected, natural death.

We know that Mrs Harrod had a caregiver who was named and remembered in her obit. It's likely said caregiver kept her patient bathed as long as she was her charge, and certainly may have cleaned her body and clothing if needed after death.

Why is this sensitive subject being discussed at all? What does it have to do with the disappearance of Mr Harrod?

~jmo~

You bolded the below quote. I only had that to go by that you were answering? I still don't think it's common in the US. And unless the Harrod's are Islamic, Asian or something along those lines I'm gonna guess it didn't happen.

Is it really unusual in the US to wash someone when they die, and comb their hair and maybe change their clothes?

 

[SuziQ]

I've known alot of caregivers, god bless them all. And I'm pretty sure bathing a dead body is not in their job description. I've never seen one do that.

 

[shana]

Well, I know the death of a person is sensitive, but I think it is because some of us feel that the deaths of two people may have taken place in that house (in a relatively short period of time) and one of them may have been murdered. For forensic evidence purposes, you have to discuss them both.

I'm well-aware of the current direction this thread has been taking re forensics.

Apparently LE is not trusted by some to have conducted the investigation thoroughly or properly. We would not know, insofar as LE has been tight-lipped since the inception of this case. The unfortunate result is speculation well beyond known facts, IMO.

IF, after the case is resolved, LE is shown to have omitted certain investigatory practices that persons consider relevant or necessary, THEN would be the appropriate time to introduce them and to question their omission.

Of course, one could always contact Det Radomski right now and ask him if he or the dept did this or that in the days following Mr Harrod's disappearance; and if not, ask if they plan to do so now over 3 years later (doubtful).

~jmo~

 

[Cubby]

Clearly the bathing of Mrs. Harrod's body is being discussed as it may pertain to possible forensic evidence in the house. Especially as it pertains to the use of scent smelling dogs.

I'm gonna guess, HR that I asked about a few times upthread, and no one responsed is the abbv for human remains?

FWIW, I have a hard time believing either Bob or Georgia were in the home for the 2-4 hour period mentioned up thread to begin to generate the scent of decomp. If that's the case, then only remains found in drains or evidence of remains found in drains or various places might be found to carry the scent? If Cadaver dogs are used. In many many cases, cadaver dogs are used years and years, sometimes even decades later, so possible forensics in this case isn't a mute point because it wasn't done within hours of Mr. Harrod's disappearance.

Additionally, I hope GH's caregiver had been interviewed by LE after Bob's disappearance. She could certainly answer the questions with regards to whether she bathed GH after death or not.

 

[shana]

I've known alot of caregivers, god bless them all. And I'm pretty sure bathing a dead body is not in their job description. I've never seen one do that.

I've known and been bedside with many as well. They did not have a "job description" per se in the performance of their nursing duties. Perhaps I've just been fortunate in knowing that they 1) kept the patient clean, 2) would clean a patient if any bodily fluids had escaped during an event such as seizure, spills, incontinence, death, and 3) did their very best with respect to the patient and in consideration of her/his family as well.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

~jmo~

 

[shana]

You bolded the below quote. I only had that to go by that you were answering? I still don't think it's common in the US. And unless the Harrod's are Islamic, Asian or something along those lines I'm gonna guess it didn't happen.

Is it really unusual in the US to wash someone when they die, and comb their hair and maybe change their clothes?

fwiw, I bolded for emphasis but the remainder of the post was quoted in my reply. It became relevant to address in my subsequent reply and was therefore mentioned.

~jmo~

 

[zwiebel]

reposted due to incorrect quote

 

[Cubby]

I imagine some record exists somewhere indicating what time Georgia was taken from the home on Carnation to the crematorium. If within a short time after her passing, I assume concrete evidence she was not in the home long enough to generate decomp scent could rule out any detected in the home as being hers?

I sure hope Oriah can do some shaking up of the grapevine and see about getting some scent dogs into Mr. Harrod's home.

No stone unturned in the search for Mr. Harrod.

 

[zwiebel]

Shana,

It's a fact Bob was last seen in his house, has been disappeared for years, and nobody saw him leave. I joined WS to speculate about what happened to him and feel the best place to start is in his home.

As you say, PPD has been tightlipped so I very much doubt a civilian calling from Europe could elicit much info.

I hear your point about just waiting until everything's resolved before I ask questions. Trouble is, that's what my uncle always said, and he'd murdered my aunt and buried her in her own backyard.

 

[cloudajo]

Statements/comments from LE seem to be few and far between in this case, but I'm trying to put a list of all of them we have together, without the padding of the surrounding story they usually come with in MSM. I want to do it because I'm convinced there is something very different from the norm in the way Bob's case has been handled and I would like to try and pinpoint what it is.
If anyone can direct me to relevant links/posts, I'd be very grateful.
I'm not trying to compile a criticism by the way, just a list of exactly what's been said - and maybe that will shed light on what has NOT been said. Am I making any sense here?

Zwiebel, below are from various articles by month/year.

Jul 2009

• Harrod was last seen by his son-in-law, Jeff Michaels, around 1:30 p.m. on Monday. Harrod, a former contract manager, sent Michaels to Home Depot, but when Michaels returned, Harrod was no longer in the house, said Loomis. "His receipt showed that he paid for his items after 3 p.m.," Loomis said. "He thinks he was at Home Depot for 45 minutes to an hour, so given 15 minutes or so of driving time, you're looking at 1:30."
• Sgt. Scott Millsap, an investigations detective, said there have been underlying issues with the family, but declined to give any more information.
• Loomis said police initially thought Harrod left because he had gotten into an argument with another family member; they had hoped he would return when his wife came back to Placentia.
• "My personal sense was that if he did not return home by dark Wednesday night, we have a big problem," Loomis said. "We didn't ramp up a serious investigation in hopes he would come home yesterday. That was the break point."
• "We're looking at it with an open mind," Millsap said. "We're chasing every lead, looking under every rock for him."
• Loomis said she talked to Fontelle Harrod last night after her return from Kansas City. "I talked to her at length last night," Loomis said. "She does not understand for the life of her what's happened. She came home to a house full of his kids and relatives and there's no Bob. She's totally confused and scared."
• "We're going to look into bank activity, identify bank accounts and get phone records," the detective said. Police will also determine whether any of his movements, as outlined by witnesses in the days before he disappeared, can be confirmed by surveillance tape. For instance, she said, Harrod's son-in-law told police that he went to a Home Depot on Monday, and when he returned, Harrod was gone. Surveillance tape at the Home Depot might corroborate that account, or show something different, such as that Harrod was at the business with the son- in-law, she said.

Aug 2009

• Det. Loomis believes that the groom may have fled because he was overwhelmed.
• "We're just now winding down the full-court press part of this investigation," said department spokeswoman Detective Corinne Loomis Tuesday. "We're going back and doing some follow-up stuff and documentation. We have a search warrant for phone records to see who he might have talked to that we don't know about."
• Unless the efforts currently under way yield new leads, the department will have used all the avenues they have available to find Harrod at this time, she said.
• "It's a real mystery," Loomis said.
• Placentia Police Detectives say they can’t confirm any theories of how or why Robert disappeared. The only theory they’ve ruled out is that Robert was met with foul play at the hands of a stranger.

Sep 2009

• "So far there are no signs of anything," said department spokeswoman Detective Corinne Loomis. "We don't know what happened to him. He just vanished."
• Loomis said they are close to exhausting all their leads in the case, but continue to do follow-up work. "There is no movement on any bank account or credit cards," Loomis said, adding that Harrod did not have a cell phone and calls made to and from his home before he vanished don't point to anything suspicious.
• "He either walked away and decided to make himself scarce or he was taken from his home and encountered foul play," she said.

Oct 2009

• "Any theory that we have is beset by problems that make it either unworkable or illogical," said Placentia Police Det. Corinne Loomis, one of the lead investigators in the first weeks of the case and a spokeswoman for the department. "It's like a water balloon; when you squeeze it in one place, it pops out in another."
• "We've treated this as a homicide investigation," said Placentia Police Chief Jim Anderson. "Because you can't go back in time and retrieve evidence. But our chief concern is for Mr. Harrod's safety."
• "I don't want to show my hand to you," he said. "We have a couple of ongoing roads we're going to go down. I don't want to alert possible suspects. We have nothing to focus on directly yet."

Feb 2010

• Police are still working what scant avenues for investigation remain left to them after the mysterious disappearance of Placentia resident Bob Harrod, 81, six months ago.
• Loomis confirmed that police were using a lie-detector test, but would not disclose publicly the results or to whom the tests would be administered.
• In the 26 years Loomis has worked with the Placentia Police Department, she says this is the biggest mystery. In trying to piece together scraps of information, there are times she finds herself simply wondering, "What in the world could have happened to this guy?"

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-214111--.html?pic=11
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/harrod-232302-bob-police.html
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/harrod-147900-loomis-family.html
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jul/31/local/me-missing-groom31
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local-beat/Man-81-Disappears-After-Marrying-Childhood-Sweetheart-52086697.html?__source=Facebook
http://www2.ocregister.com/articles/police-harrod-department-2541805-loomis-placentia
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,535895,00.html
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Weekend/story?id=8227798&page=1
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-disappeared3-2010feb03,0,7717364,full.story

 

[Cubby]

Has Bob's SIL told police where he discarded the used materials from Bob's home? Even a wax toilet ring doesn't fit in one's pocket. The guts of a toilet tank don't fit in a pocket.

Where are the materials and were they turned over to police? Or were police advised to where they were discarded?

I agree with whomever posted upthread, the discarded materials are important evidence which could lead to Mr. Harrod's current whereabouts.

 

[zwiebel]

Clearly the bathing of Mrs. Harrod's body is being discussed as it may pertain to possible forensic evidence in the house. Especially as it pertains to the use of scent smelling dogs.

I'm gonna guess, HR that I asked about a few times upthread, and no one responsed is the abbv for human remains?

FWIW, I have a hard time believing either Bob or Georgia were in the home for the 2-4 hour period mentioned up thread to begin to generate the scent of decomp. If that's the case, then only remains found in drains or evidence of remains found in drains or various places might be found to carry the scent? If Cadaver dogs are used. In many many cases, cadaver dogs are used years and years, sometimes even decades later, so possible forensics in this case isn't a mute point because it wasn't done within hours of Mr. Harrod's disappearance.

Additionally, I hope GH's caregiver had been interviewed by LE after Bob's disappearance. She could certainly answer the questions with regards to whether she bathed GH after death or not.

Just guessing too, but I've been going with Human Remains as I can't think of anything else it might be.

 

[zwiebel]

Zwiebel, below are from various articles by month/year.

Jul 2009

• Harrod was last seen by his son-in-law, Jeff Michaels, around 1:30 p.m. on Monday. Harrod, a former contract manager, sent Michaels to Home Depot, but when Michaels returned, Harrod was no longer in the house, said Loomis. "His receipt showed that he paid for his items after 3 p.m.," Loomis said. "He thinks he was at Home Depot for 45 minutes to an hour, so given 15 minutes or so of driving time, you're looking at 1:30."
• Sgt. Scott Millsap, an investigations detective, said there have been underlying issues with the family, but declined to give any more information.
• Loomis said police initially thought Harrod left because he had gotten into an argument with another family member; they had hoped he would return when his wife came back to Placentia.
• "My personal sense was that if he did not return home by dark Wednesday night, we have a big problem," Loomis said. "We didn't ramp up a serious investigation in hopes he would come home yesterday. That was the break point."
• "We're looking at it with an open mind," Millsap said. "We're chasing every lead, looking under every rock for him."
• Loomis said she talked to Fontelle Harrod last night after her return from Kansas City. "I talked to her at length last night," Loomis said. "She does not understand for the life of her what's happened. She came home to a house full of his kids and relatives and there's no Bob. She's totally confused and scared."
• "We're going to look into bank activity, identify bank accounts and get phone records," the detective said. Police will also determine whether any of his movements, as outlined by witnesses in the days before he disappeared, can be confirmed by surveillance tape. For instance, she said, Harrod's son-in-law told police that he went to a Home Depot on Monday, and when he returned, Harrod was gone. Surveillance tape at the Home Depot might corroborate that account, or show something different, such as that Harrod was at the business with the son- in-law, she said.

Aug 2009

• Det. Loomis believes that the groom may have fled because he was overwhelmed.
• "We're just now winding down the full-court press part of this investigation," said department spokeswoman Detective Corinne Loomis Tuesday. "We're going back and doing some follow-up stuff and documentation. We have a search warrant for phone records to see who he might have talked to that we don't know about."
• Unless the efforts currently under way yield new leads, the department will have used all the avenues they have available to find Harrod at this time, she said.
• "It's a real mystery," Loomis said.
• Placentia Police Detectives say they can’t confirm any theories of how or why Robert disappeared. The only theory they’ve ruled out is that Robert was met with foul play at the hands of a stranger.

Sep 2009

• "So far there are no signs of anything," said department spokeswoman Detective Corinne Loomis. "We don't know what happened to him. He just vanished."
• Loomis said they are close to exhausting all their leads in the case, but continue to do follow-up work. "There is no movement on any bank account or credit cards," Loomis said, adding that Harrod did not have a cell phone and calls made to and from his home before he vanished don't point to anything suspicious.
• "He either walked away and decided to make himself scarce or he was taken from his home and encountered foul play," she said.

Oct 2009

• "Any theory that we have is beset by problems that make it either unworkable or illogical," said Placentia Police Det. Corinne Loomis, one of the lead investigators in the first weeks of the case and a spokeswoman for the department. "It's like a water balloon; when you squeeze it in one place, it pops out in another."
• "We've treated this as a homicide investigation," said Placentia Police Chief Jim Anderson. "Because you can't go back in time and retrieve evidence. But our chief concern is for Mr. Harrod's safety."
• "I don't want to show my hand to you," he said. "We have a couple of ongoing roads we're going to go down. I don't want to alert possible suspects. We have nothing to focus on directly yet."

Feb 2010

• Police are still working what scant avenues for investigation remain left to them after the mysterious disappearance of Placentia resident Bob Harrod, 81, six months ago.
• Loomis confirmed that police were using a lie-detector test, but would not disclose publicly the results or to whom the tests would be administered.
• In the 26 years Loomis has worked with the Placentia Police Department, she says this is the biggest mystery. In trying to piece together scraps of information, there are times she finds herself simply wondering, "What in the world could have happened to this guy?"

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-214111--.html?pic=11
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/harrod-232302-bob-police.html
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/harrod-147900-loomis-family.html
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jul/31/local/me-missing-groom31
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local-beat/Man-81-Disappears-After-Marrying-Childhood-Sweetheart-52086697.html?__source=Facebook
http://www2.ocregister.com/articles/police-harrod-department-2541805-loomis-placentia
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,535895,00.html
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Weekend/story?id=8227798&page=1
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-disappeared3-2010feb03,0,7717364,full.story

cloudajo, you are unbelievable! To be honest, I was angling for help from you and Angelo when I made my earlier post about LE quotes, but I didn't expect you'd do the whole thing for me!
I have been in thread one for hours and hours and had managed to get only to post 30, finding these. But I spotted you there, right from the start, highlighting the crazy timeline and posting all the links. Thank you, thank you. If there was a gold medal for this, you'd get it!

 

[shana]

Has Bob's SIL told police where he discarded the used materials from Bob's home? Even a wax toilet ring doesn't fit in one's pocket. The guts of a toilet tank don't fit in a pocket.

Where are the materials and were they turned over to police? Or were police advised to where they were discarded?

I agree with whomever posted upthread, the discarded materials are important evidence which could lead to Mr. Harrod's current whereabouts.

When/where did the idea that Bob's SIL repaired or replaced a toilet come into play? Was it in the dramatization that "Disappeared" put up for a brief time? If not, what?

I realize there is much light made of my comment way up about discarded items fitting into a pocket. Certainly I was NOT saying a toilet would (LOL) but its parts *might* depending on just what they were (rusted/broken flush chain, for example). In any event, I was referring to "small projects" - who has the list?

So, is the suggestion up that LE did not check the trash (however it's sorted) at the Harrod residence in their initial investigation? If so, another good question for the detective in-charge of the case.

I'm gonna bet he also knows what the "small projects" were reported to be, and a toilet replacement would not by definition be among them.

P.S. (from above posts related to general topic): In Southern California, a discarded item such as a porcelain fixture (basin, sink, toilet) would not typically be placed in a residential curbside recycle bin but would instead need to be taken to a yard or facility. Most municipalities have strict rules about what goes where and direct homeowners to locations where construction trash can be disposed of, and often for free.

Put a toilet in your green bin and find it left for you to take care of after regular pickup.

~jmo~

 

[zwiebel]

And I've bumped the whole post because I have finally realized how much work goes into it and it deserves to be...........cloudajo, you are superb!!!!