CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #11

[noZme]

I find a lot of importance in Mr Bob's slippers beside his unmade bed & his hat & eyeglasses left behind (although he may have had another pair). So... I think he may have been awakened by someone in his room insisting he get up & come along to the waiting vehicle. An elderly frail man could have been put out, bonked on the head, shot or whatever & shoved off the roadside. His disappearance may have occurred very early or even while the neighborhood slept. Rather than having been disabled & carried out, he may have left on his own 2 feet. If urged on by a gun, baseball bat, knife, etc, would a little old man challenge.... ummm.... possibly a relative?

z
I cannot get a particular map location to post on any mapping site. Perhaps someone could do a screen capture then post that pic.

 

[Cubby]

Thanks so much but it's my tablet. I can find it but it won't show the url to link it (noZme has helped me out now, see posts above) Have to borrow Mr Zs computer to do it usually, but he's asleep.

Oh, ok. Gotcha. Thank you for letting me know.....

still doing homework here so bbl

 

[mikkismom]

http://goo.gl/maps/eFfYW

Placentia, Ca to Barstow, Ca - almost 2 hrs.

 

[Cubby]

We reportedly have a 10:00 am last call to Bob from a non family member. That leads me to believe he was likely already awake and getting ready for his day.

If it weren't likely the 10:00 am call was from the housekeeper calling to change her usual day of Tuesday to that day of Monday, I could dismiss Bob being ok at 10am more easily.


I tend to find that 10:00am call credible, so I can't consider him missing any earlier than 10:00am Monday morning the 27th.

 

[GrainneDhu]

We reportedly have a 10:00 am last call to Bob from a non family member. That leads me to believe he was likely already awake and getting ready for his day.

If it weren't likely the 10:00 am call was from the housekeeper calling to change her usual day of Tuesday to that day of Monday, I could dismiss Bob being ok at 10am more easily.


I tend to find that 10:00am call credible, so I can't consider him missing any earlier than 10:00am Monday morning the 27th.

I cannot remember who it was (so sorry) who pointed out that if you look at who acted like they knew Bob was dead first, it seems like AH. Just a days after Bob disappeared, he failed to make his mortgage payment.

All the possible problems with a tight timeline disappear if one assumes that it was not JeM who was responsible for Bob's disappearance. Darn it.

After thinking about this a lot, I think what really frightens me about this case is how calculating the perp has been. The timing of Bob's disappearance indicates to me that the perp really didn't want Fontelle added to Bob's accounts and yet there's no sense of fear around the crime itself.

Tangential thought: makes me wonder what would have happened had Bob told his family "I have already added my new wife to all our accounts." I have a friend who is a great strategist and one of his principles is never threaten. Take action and then inform the target. It's a wise principle, I think.

This was, in a way, a patient crime. If whoever did it just needed money relatively quickly, then I think the crime scene would have been staged to look like a burglary gone bad. But, as we all know, that isn't what happened. Bob disappeared and his body is apparently not someplace where it will easily be found.

So whoever did it was happy with the idea of having to wait for a period of years (anyone know how long it takes in California?) before Bob's estate could be distributed. That is a level of patience not usually seen in tandem with high levels of greed. Which makes me wonder if it was really Bob's money that was the motive or was it to cover up something related to Bob's money.

 

[Cubby]

Very well said, Grainne. I agree with all of it.

It's 5 years for a missing person in CA to be declared deceased.

 

[zwiebel]

I find a lot of importance in Mr Bob's slippers beside his unmade bed & his hat & eyeglasses left behind (although he may have had another pair). So... I think he may have been awakened by someone in his room insisting he get up & come along to the waiting vehicle. An elderly frail man could have been put out, bonked on the head, shot or whatever & shoved off the roadside. His disappearance may have occurred very early or even while the neighborhood slept. Rather than having been disabled & carried out, he may have left on his own 2 feet. If urged on by a gun, baseball bat, knife, etc, would a little old man challenge.... ummm.... possibly a relative?

z
I cannot get a particular map location to post on any mapping site. Perhaps someone could do a screen capture then post that pic.

The slippers and eyeglasses speak to me too. Spare glasses left on the table like that don't seem right - I keep my spares put away so I know where they are when I need them. I'm not so sure about Bob not putting up a challenge though - in RB's attorney's letter she talked of how Bob had called SIL and tore him off a strip. I hope myself, that whatever happened to Bob, he never saw it coming. Too awful to think about otherwise.

 

[zwiebel]

http://goo.gl/maps/eFfYW

Placentia, Ca to Barstow, Ca - almost 2 hrs.

Thanks for stepping in there - I thought that one was going to run and run!

 

[noZme]

I had forgotten about that mid-morning call, but I do think he may have walked out of his house with someone he knew.

I understand Mr Bob was feisty with words but from videos, he seemed to move about as would be expected of a person his age. He would not have been a match for anyone "strong-arming"... especially in a suprise attack.

"Come along for a drive with me pops, there is something I want you to see." ..... " OK old man, get out of the car"..... Ka-pow!

 

[zwiebel]

This morning a football, the dog and Mr Zwiebel all went over the side of a cliff, in that order. All of them deliberately, to save the preceding one, except the football which was deliberately pushed by a cold, wet nose. I stayed above, of course, because some of us are sane and also want to point emergency rescue in the right direction, if needed.

Looking at them down there though, I realized they had almost completely disappeared. It's only a small cliff, and the vegetation here is 'woody' and green with few brambles or thorns. It was easy to see how, if they were incapacitated, it might be a very long time before they were found, and then it would more likely be a fisherman on the river than somebody descending from the path above.

It's made me a little disheartened for Bob in truth. I was looking at the Californian vegetation and there's just everything there - desert with thorny shrubs, forests and mountains. If Bob was just thrown from a mountain road, it'll be so unlikely he'll be found by an organized search unless there's a tip-off. It's going to be some intrepid hiker or something, and that could take years. Everything is on such a grand scale in the US, it's daunting. I am full of admiration for your search teams, I really am. It is nothing short of miraculous they find as many missing people as they do.

Somebody cheer me up and tell me some reasons why Bob can be found.

 

[Seajay]

Very well said, Grainne. I agree with all of it.

It's 5 years for a missing person in CA to be declared deceased.

I always thought it was 7 years. I figured the family had to be patient and sit back for 7 years before they could collect their blood money.

 

[Cubby]

I always thought it was 7 years. I figured the family had to be patient and sit back for 7 years before they could collect their blood money.

It's 7 years in most places. In California it is 5. We might have linked it way early on, I don't recall but will look and bump/carry over any older posts with the info on it being 5 years in CA.

 

[Cubby]

This morning a football, the dog and Mr Zwiebel all went over the side of a cliff, in that order. All of them deliberately, to save the preceding one, except the football which was deliberately pushed by a cold, wet nose. I stayed above, of course, because some of us are sane and also want to point emergency rescue in the right direction, if needed.

Looking at them down there though, I realized they had almost completely disappeared. It's only a small cliff, and the vegetation here is 'woody' and green with few brambles or thorns. It was easy to see how, if they were incapacitated, it might be a very long time before they were found, and then it would more likely be a fisherman on the river than somebody descending from the path above.

It's made me a little disheartened for Bob in truth. I was looking at the Californian vegetation and there's just everything there - desert with thorny shrubs, forests and mountains. If Bob was just thrown from a mountain road, it'll be so unlikely he'll be found by an organized search unless there's a tip-off. It's going to be some intrepid hiker or something, and that could take years. Everything is on such a grand scale in the US, it's daunting. I am full of admiration for your search teams, I really am. It is nothing short of miraculous they find as many missing people as they do.

Somebody cheer me up and tell me some reasons why Bob can be found.

I've too always thought if Bob was discarded somewhere in the mountains it would take a hiker to stumble upon his remains.

I've also considered the use of dogs proving he is deceased and bringing this case to trial, as with the case of Bianca Jones, even though a body has not been found.

 

[Seajay]

This morning a football, the dog and Mr Zwiebel all went over the side of a cliff, in that order. All of them deliberately, to save the preceding one, except the football which was deliberately pushed by a cold, wet nose. I stayed above, of course, because some of us are sane and also want to point emergency rescue in the right direction, if needed.

Looking at them down there though, I realized they had almost completely disappeared. It's only a small cliff, and the vegetation here is 'woody' and green with few brambles or thorns. It was easy to see how, if they were incapacitated, it might be a very long time before they were found, and then it would more likely be a fisherman on the river than somebody descending from the path above.

It's made me a little disheartened for Bob in truth. I was looking at the Californian vegetation and there's just everything there - desert with thorny shrubs, forests and mountains. If Bob was just thrown from a mountain road, it'll be so unlikely he'll be found by an organized search unless there's a tip-off. It's going to be some intrepid hiker or something, and that could take years. Everything is on such a grand scale in the US, it's daunting. I am full of admiration for your search teams, I really am. It is nothing short of miraculous they find as many missing people as they do.

Somebody cheer me up and tell me some reasons why Bob can be found.

zwiebel, that's usually the way the missing dead are found, is a hiker will traverse the area and accidently discover remains. Or kids exploring will come across them. In the local mountains (San Bernadino), there is a highway that many a body has been dumped. It's called Angeles Crest Highway.

In the desert, usually dead bodies are found by ATV enthusiasts. Or the buzzards will start circling and tip off LE that something is out there that should be checked.

 

[Seajay]

It's 7 years in most places. In California it is 5. We might have linked it way early on, I don't recall but will look and bump/carry over any older posts with the info on it being 5 years in CA.

Thanks, I tried looking it up and I got a whole bunch of other legal mumbo jumbo and a "I think it's 7 years in California." However, I was always under that assumption as well.

I've just never had anyone in my family missing to where I'd have to find that out.

 

[zwiebel]

zwiebel, that's usually the way the missing dead are found, is a hiker will traverse the area and accidently discover remains. Or kids exploring will come across them. In the local mountains (San Bernadino), there is a highway that many a body has been dumped. It's called Angeles Crest Highway.

In the desert, usually dead bodies are found by ATV enthusiasts. Or the buzzards will start circling and tip off LE that something is out there that should be checked.

Yes, I should take a more positive attitude. I come from a small country where bodies are usually discovered quickly, and often by LE searches. I have to bear in mind it's different over there - here? -!

 

[Cubby]

Orignally posted by, Guess who? cloudajo:

It’s my understanding from reading that in CA, a person is presumed dead if not seen or heard from for a continuous period of 5 years. An exception to this period of time might be made by the court if the person was exposed to “imminent peril” and fail to return, like a plane crash (e.g. Steve Fossett, the multimillionaire adventurer, was declared legally dead in Illinois five months after his disappearance while flying over the Nevada desert). A person would petition the court to declare a missing person dead, and the petitioner has the burden of producing evidence to show this presumption. Also that they took the appropriate steps to locate the missing person, e.g. engaging the services of an investigator…

Does anyone know if this is correct then?

=====

California Evidence Code Section 667
667. A person not heard from in five years is presumed to be dead.
California Probate Code Sections 12401, 12402, 12406
12401. In proceedings under this part, a person who has not been seen or heard from for a continuous period of five years by those who are likely to have seen or heard from that person, and whose absence is not satisfactorily explained after diligent search or inquiry, is presumed to be dead. The person's death is presumed to have occurred at the end of the period unless there is sufficient evidence to establish that death occurred earlier.
12402. Subject to the provisions of this part, the estate of a missing person may be administered in the manner provided generally for the administration of estates of deceased persons.
12406. (a) At the hearing, the court shall determine whether the alleged missing person is a person who is presumed to be dead under Section 12401. The court may receive evidence and consider the affidavits and depositions of persons likely to have seen or heard from or know the whereabouts of the alleged missing person. (b) If the court is not satisfied that a diligent search or inquiry has been made for the missing person, the court may order the petitioner to conduct a diligent search or inquiry and to report the results. The court may order the search or inquiry to be made in any manner that the court determines to be advisable, including any or all of the following methods: (1) Inserting in one or more suitable newspapers or other periodicals a notice requesting information from any person having knowledge of the whereabouts of the missing person. (2) Notifying law enforcement officials and public welfare agencies in appropriate locations of the disappearance of the missing person. (3) Engaging the services of an investigator. (c) The costs of a search ordered by the court pursuant to subdivision (b) shall be paid by the estate of the missing person, but if there is no administration, the court in its discretion may order the petitioner to pay the costs.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=evid&group=00001-01000&file=660-670
http://law.justia.com/california/codes/prob/12400-12408.html
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2253/what-happens-when-someone-legally-dead-shows-up-alive
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1578874/Missing-millionaire-Steve-Fossett-declared-dead.html
　
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #1

 

[Oriah]

I'd love to see the landscape in this area myself - if it is brushwood/ thorns. Nature park tourists pics look green and pleasant but it's hard to tell. I wonder if it is a problematic area for K9s to search?

Not a problem, just a pain. It's one of those terrains where certain specific breeds of working K9's are most useful- good coats, their feet are tough, and they are not fearful of brambles or stickers or tight places.

The most wonderful thing is that they stay on task even when the going gets tough.

 

[Cubby]

From the info in post #337

The person's death is presumed to have occurred at the end of the period unless there is sufficient evidence to establish that death occurred earlier.


The above would indicate to me the statute of limitations for a wrongful death suit would begin at the end of the period, 5 years after Bob went missing. I would think sufficient evidence to establish that death occured earlier, would only occur if an arrest and charges are filed. In which case the clock would start ticking upon charges being filed.

IANAL, and the above is just how I would interpret this particular phrase of the law.

 

[zwiebel]

Orignally posted by, Guess who? cloudajo:

BBM
It’s my understanding from reading that in CA, a person is presumed dead if not seen or heard from for a continuous period of 5 years. An exception to this period of time might be made by the court if the person was exposed to “imminent peril” and fail to return, like a plane crash (e.g. Steve Fossett, the multimillionaire adventurer, was declared legally dead in Illinois five months after his disappearance while flying over the Nevada desert). A person would petition the court to declare a missing person dead, and the petitioner has the burden of producing evidence to show this presumption. Also that they took the appropriate steps to locate the missing person, e.g. engaging the services of an investigator…

Does anyone know if this is correct then?

=====

California Evidence Code Section 667
667. A person not heard from in five years is presumed to be dead.
California Probate Code Sections 12401, 12402, 12406
12401. In proceedings under this part, a person who has not been seen or heard from for a continuous period of five years by those who are likely to have seen or heard from that person, and whose absence is not satisfactorily explained after diligent search or inquiry, is presumed to be dead. The person's death is presumed to have occurred at the end of the period unless there is sufficient evidence to establish that death occurred earlier.
12402. Subject to the provisions of this part, the estate of a missing person may be administered in the manner provided generally for the administration of estates of deceased persons.
12406. (a) At the hearing, the court shall determine whether the alleged missing person is a person who is presumed to be dead under Section 12401. The court may receive evidence and consider the affidavits and depositions of persons likely to have seen or heard from or know the whereabouts of the alleged missing person. (b) If the court is not satisfied that a diligent search or inquiry has been made for the missing person, the court may order the petitioner to conduct a diligent search or inquiry and to report the results. The court may order the search or inquiry to be made in any manner that the court determines to be advisable, including any or all of the following methods: (1) Inserting in one or more suitable newspapers or other periodicals a notice requesting information from any person having knowledge of the whereabouts of the missing person. (2) Notifying law enforcement officials and public welfare agencies in appropriate locations of the disappearance of the missing person. (3) Engaging the services of an investigator. (c) The costs of a search ordered by the court pursuant to subdivision (b) shall be paid by the estate of the missing person, but if there is no administration, the court in its discretion may order the petitioner to pay the costs.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=evid&group=00001-01000&file=660-670
http://law.justia.com/california/codes/prob/12400-12408.html
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2253/what-happens-when-someone-legally-dead-shows-up-alive
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1578874/Missing-millionaire-Steve-Fossett-declared-dead.html
　
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #1

I notice that the assumed date of death will be at the end of the five-year period, unless 'evidence is produced to prove death occurred earlier'. Does that mean that after five years, if Bob is delared dead say, 3 months after the five years is up, FH will be able to bring a wrongful death suit beause Bob has officially only been dead 3 months?
Could it also mean that, in order for FH to be 'timed out', Bob's daughters might have to try and prove he died the day he disappeared from the house?