CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5

[MesaVerde]

Wouldn't it be also possible (since every floor is triplicate) that these pictures show two different 14th floors? Am not sure whether this has been discussed before.

No, there is only one set of elevators for the building. The triplicate wings do not each have their own elevator shaft.

 

[RhiannonR]

That is good. Although, please edit that bit out that describes you so they don't know who to be on the lookout for. The hotel employees might read this site.

If you go, please try to ride the elevator up away from the lobby and when the doors open, hit the DOOR HOLD button. I would like to know if the elevator makes chiming sounds while the door is in the held open state or if it is quiet.

And take a picture of the door that leads to the roof if you could get that far in the building. Especially get a picture of the locking mechanism.

I'm sure there are plenty of middle age people going in and out, day after day. I'm not sure when we are going, I'm not going to say. But, I'm not editing because I'm not paranoid!

 

[MesaVerde]

I wondered the same and I too could not find stated page. My thought was that it was deleted or inactivated because she is sadly no longer missing.

I have made reference to that once out here btw, and included the FB caveat. I still think that it must have been backed by her family as we have very little info on and the police found it important enough to include as a means of identification.

Well, with only a lazy news desk quoting a now nonexistant Facebook page (that could have belonged to anybody) as the source, I don't think we can call this "fact" yet and I think it was entirely appropriate for people to question where this "fact" was coming from.

I am not saying it isn't an interesting piece of information. It certainly is. But I don't think that anybody is being unreasonable if they want to know why this piece of information belongs in the absolute fact category.

 

[OCSlacker]

Around Christmas time 2012, I had assumed that EL was around her home (Vancouver area.) Some reasons being:

0. Dec 10: "So it’s my final 48 hours in Ontario before returning to home."
http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/37604546455/the-end-is-near-more-so-its-my-final-48

She plans on going "home."

1. Dec 21: "I figured out where I caught the flu from. THE BLOODY AIRPLANE RIDE HOME. Stuck inside a tiny little room with recycled air means I damn well will pick something up." (bold added by me)
http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/38458710384/insomniasss-more-i-figured-out-where-i

Thus implying that she had flown home.

2. Dec 18: She celebrates her grandmother's 87th birthday perhaps at home ("the dinner table")
"Tonight was my grandma’s 87th birthday and it was nice because I was able to sit down at the dinner table and it was not a big deal for me. Yeah….a family dinner where I willingly sat down, made conversation and it was all very good. This is if anything, a miracle, and an indication I am doing much better. "
http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/38216201949/finally-finished-writing-my-postcards-and-theyll

This assumes, of course, that grandma and "family" are back around the Vancouver area/home.

3. Jan 5: "I just found a copy of A Farewell to Arms that my mom probably bought in the 80s for $1 or something."
http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/...st-found-a-copy-of-a-farewell-to-arms-that-my

I'm making a guess that just finding a book EL's mom bought means EL was at her parents' place.

4. Dec 23: This isn't as strong, but on Dec 23 she talks about finishing 9 hours of retail hell (I think she worked in a women's shoe store) http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/38603317176/i-just-got-off-a-horrible-9-hour-shift-of-retail

This job apparently started on Dec 20th (this posting on Dec 19th mentions she's starting work "tomorrow" http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/38288453259/of-course-its-not-a-competition-to-see-who-ends)

She works until at least Dec 28th: She mentions being tired from work on the 28th of December (http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/39049710741/more-im-a-bit-down-these-days-might-just-be).

5. She goes with some friends (including a very good close friend) to a dance club http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/38629989538/a-night-at-da-club-more-the-group-of-people

This sounds less touristy and more like things one may do (work, hang out with a very close friend) in one's hometown.



I see the posting about her travel plans that start off in Vancouver:
http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/40401259146/planning-planning-planning-for-the-west-coast

http://nouvelle-nouveau.tumblr.com/post/39940752951/i-just-got-my-flightbookd-vancouver-jan-18

Seems to me she was at her parent's home. Perhaps her home and Vancouver aren't that close? If Vancouver is her home, then perhaps some time after Jan 5th, she left the area? Anyway, perhaps if people knew what city her parents lived in, everything would make more sense.

Just thought I would add that her sister lives in Vancouver and it's only about a 20 min. ride to get to her home in Burnaby from there.. I would post a link to her sisters information but I don't think I should on the forum. My understanding is she still lived at home with her parents.

 

[jetsetsam]

I posted some time ago how I had worked for a number of years as a labourer repairing the old heritage buildings in downtown Vancouver, many of which had ladders like the fire escape ladders on the Cecil Hotel. And yes, I worked on the Cecil Hotel in Vancouver, long before it was torn down.

I carried lots of heavy stuff up and down the vertical ladders. I was really strong then. I cycled, practised Judo, weight trained, and worked as a labourer. But it would have been a real strain for me to carry a 115 lb body up a vertical ladder. You would have to have very strong legs, back, shoulders, arms and hands.

And a second guy wouldn't any help. What would he do? Push on your from below? Pull you hair from above? You have to climb up the ladder at least 2/3 of the way before the second guy could possibly reach down and pull up the body.

Think about it. To carry a 115 lb body up a vertical ladder, you would sling it over your right shoulder. The body is then between you and the ladder, which restricts your ability to climb up the ladder, and the body would push you away from the ladder. Your right leg would keep hitting parts of the body, and you couldn't use you right side and hand much because you are balancing the body to keep it from sliding off your shoulder. So you would be pulling yourself up with your left hand and arm, and stepping up one wrung at a time. And grunting a lot.

Most people can't carry a body up a vertical ladder that has more than a few rungs. Been there.

Next idea is that he can pull the body up the ladder up with a rope.

What rope?

The rope that is kept in a hotel room to pull bodies up to the roof?

 

[jennydreadful]

<snip>

I've been through the lambetes Twitter tweets and have not seen one RIP message there. I have been through numerous of her "followers" tweets and have yet to see any RIP messages there (although I have a few left to check .. just haven't had time to do all 54).

Please provide a specific date on the lambetes twitter account where you see an RIP and some verifiable information.

I don't know if anyone else has answered this for you, so I will just in case. Check out Lambetes post on Jan. 10th telling someone to go sketch people. Go to the Twitter of the user she's talking to (her user name has fashion in it). Once you're there, scroll down to the Feb. 21sts posts--there are two there. The user links to Lambetes and says she's Elisa and that she'd just met up with her recently--she had just learned of Elisa's disappearance and death.

Elisa had suggested the meetup because she was going to be visiting Toronto (see Elisa's tweets of Dec. 6th to read those). Hope that helps!

Edit: I know people have explained the connection between this Twitter and the Tumblr, but I'll go into it briefly. Off the top of my head, here's a quick way to verify that it's extremely likely that it's hers. Go to her Tumblr, click on the etc, and then click on the link to her Formspring. She uses L.L. there too and uses exactly the same avatar as she does on Twitter. That's really the tip of the iceberg.

As far as the value of her Tumblr and older blog goes, I think it's valuable in terms of understand EL a little better. I think a lot of what has been said about it beyond that are red herrings and misconceptions, though.

 

[MesaVerde]

What rope?

I can go right now and buy a rope at the nearest hardware store. Be back home in 20 minutes. Cost about $20.

And nobody knows that anybody would have had to go up a vertical ladder. The ladder at the side of the tank is not vertical. There is a possibility that the roof could be accessed by the stairs and door. Also, the fire escape to the roof from the 15th floor is very short.

 

[Socrates]

MesaVerde and Conductor, you both seem like intelligent fact-based contributors to me, so I'm sure you can discuss these issues without acrimony. I'm not a moderator here, and I'm not supposed to moderate, so feel free to tell me to butt out, but I just want to say that I've been reading the stuff both of you post with interest, and the issues you are raising are important.

I've read just about all of the posts in each thread, but there are so many it's sometimes hard to recall what has been established certainly and what hasn't.

The issues here seem to be: "Did she have her glasses with her on her CA trip" and "are the social media accounts that have been widely cited here really hers." I think both questions are important.

I'm especially interested in the latter one. If the tumblr account and the blog are hers, she reveals a lot of information about herself that could be useful for determining her psychological state when she disappeared. I thought there was a general consensus on here that the tumblr and blog accounts were indeed hers, but consensus is not proof. So maybe it would be useful to revisit the evidence on that?

 

[OCSlacker]

I am Elisa Lam's size almost exactly. Pretty much any guy not elderly, grossly obese, or in a wheel chair can easily carry me around. So obviously her weight would not be an issue. As to carrying her up a ladder, it is nearly impossible for me to conceive that somebody would believe that a human being could not easily think of a solution to carry a weight like that up a ladder.

I can think of several easy ways just off the top of my head right now and I haven't even spent time thinking about it. Get me in a situation where I really HAVE to get something done and see how ingenious I can be. So here are my NONingenious ideas that I just thought of in two minutes...

Here is one: Buy plastic sheeting from Home Depot. Wrap duct tape around it. Put a rope around it. Fix it with duct tape. Climb each ladder, afterwards pulling the body up by the rope. Cut the plastic off of her. Drop her in the tank.

Or:

Wrap plastic around her. Secure it with duct tape. Create duct tape handles to create two straps. Slip an arm through each strap. Put her on your back. Climb the ladder. Cut the plastic off dump her in the tank.

Or. Put her in a suitcase. I would easily fit in a regular checked luggage suitcase. So would she. Climb the ladder. Pull the suitcase up by a rope.

Absolutely agree, I am also about the same height and weight.. every time I see my guy friends they pick me up and throw me around like I'm a doll to give me a hug.. irritates the hell out of me! So yes, I can definitely see an average male having no issue carrying her. In regard to climbing a ladder, as I wrote before I use to have a large army duffle bag, I could easily fit in this and it had straps like a backpack. My roommates son would wear it to carry my clothes to the laundry. I have a lot of clothes, not sure about it weighing a 100 lbs but it was certainly heavy and he had absolutely no problem lugging it around. I can understand that this may be quite different while ascending a fire escape but I can not rule it out..

 

[dotr]

You are making me think of Archimedes pulling the ship to harbor. And then that there must be some old MacGyver (sp?) episode like this.

Lol, Saturday Night Live style!
http://www.the-office.com/summerlift/pulleybasics.htm
" A single pulley changes the direction of the lifting force. For example, if you are lifting a heavy object with a single pulley anchored to the ceiling, you can pull down on the rope to lift the object instead of pushing up. The same amount of effort is needed as without a pulley, but it feels easier because you are pulling down"

 

[jetsetsam]

So now the killer has a pulley in his room?

 

[Joe Friday]

Getting back to the ladder and the dead weight - what if someone had a backpack that weighed 120lbs? Since the weight is evenly distributed, and you have both hands, wouldn't it be possible to carry someone up a wall ladder?

If someone tied EL to their back like a backpack, there would be ligature marks left behind that would have been noticed during postmortem exam.

JMO, but think even a very strong man accustomed to carrying weight on ladders, could descend with a body - but not ascend, as the shoulder muscles and the arms that must lift one at a time to climb, would be too constricted.
From the top of my head thinking - I wonder if say, a heavy rock/or whatever,high up, could be tied to a rope and attached to a body below,that has been sheathed in slippery material, garbage bag,sheet? and with a push of the rock - body is hoisted/slid up pulley style?

Again using a rope to hoist her body would leave behind distinctive bruising that would indicate foul play.

I seriously doubt that anyone concocted some (MacGyver) contraption to hoist her body up to the tanks.

JMO





Or maybe the killer (which I personally don't think there is one) hired a helicopter or local crane service to hoist her body up to the top of the tank and lower her in? This will likely be the next theory introduced.

Again JMO

 

[MesaVerde]

The rope that is kept in a hotel room to pull bodies up to the roof?

And by the way, ever heard of a rape kit?

Guys that like to rape or kill women often spend a great deal of their time thinking about what they want to do to women, how they are going to do it. If a guy like this was living or working in the Cecil, for example, he might have spent weeks or even years thinking about how he could put a body in that water tank.

A person like that might have already had everything in his room just waiting for the right opportunity.

My hobbies don't include killing people. But I like to knit. I have knitting needles in sizes that I've never used before...you know why? Because I plan to use them someday I hope for a project I haven't gotten to yet. I picked them up online when I saw them on sale. Ditto yarn and pattern books.

You better believe that if my thing was killing people, I'd have all sorts of stuff collected for the purpose that I picked up along the way here and there when I was out and about. Walking through a hardware store would be like a candy store for a depraved killer...Walk by a saw, wow, all sort so things you could do with that.

How hard do you think it would be to keep some rope, duct tape, and whatever else on hand?

The good news about you is that either you are not any sort of killer want to be or you are one of those disorganized ones that just doesn't plan ahead. It is the organized planners that really scare the blank out of me.

 

[jetsetsam]

"the fire escape to the roof from the 15th floor is very short."

The fire escape ladder from the 15 floor to the roof is probably about 12 feet, because that would be the height of one of the floors of the building.

This is a photo taken by someone standing at the base of the fire escape ladder. Its not short.

 

[MesaVerde]

The issues here seem to be: "Did she have her glasses with her on her CA trip" and "are the social media accounts that have been widely cited here really hers." I think both questions are important.

Agreed.

 

[MesaVerde]

If someone tied EL to their back like a backpack, there would be ligature marks left behind that would have been noticed during postmortem exam.

Not if nothing was tied directly to her. If she were wrapped in something or placed in something, there would be no need to have anything tied to her in a ligature type of way. In fact, I would find that to be a very stupid way to try to pull a dead body.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Yes, especially in the tight gap between the tanks, and having to lay the body over the pipes at the top of the tank. Surely there have to be some body marks if indeed she was carried there.

Which leads me to lean towards the theory that she made it there herself, either to run and hide from some real or imaginary threat, or under some drug induced hallucination. This is one likely scenario if the ladder was already by the tank. One issue though is how dark it is at the tanks in the dead of night? Anyone care to physically find out?

Definitely a real/logical explanation.

- when I said " carrying a 115lbs up a fixed ladder is too much for 1 person"...I was talking about the red ladder on the side of the storage room.

- It would be much easier to carry the body up the 8' ladder in between the storage tanks.The narrow space would actually help you brace yourself.....the copper piping on top of the tank provides a handle to help pull yourself up.( with less damage to the body...no ropes/baggage or cases needed)

- also after looking more and more at the tanks........was the tank door on the tank (open) when the hotel person found her?

I think it would be a daunting task to jump inside a 10' tank and try to secure the Tank door after you were inside

 

[catatonia]

EDIT:

Sorry, I got something wrong, after looking at this picture, it seems rather unlikely. I recalled the ladder to be angular from the ground to the roof, but there's another vertical one.

Source: http://www.insroland.org/ghostsofthececil

You could easily use the maintenance room's ladder which isn't vertical but angular.

I know, some consider it rather unlikely that there were two perps but since we don't know, it shouldn't be excluded - anyway look at the firemen, the gap between the roof of the maintenance room and the cistern is so small, even one single person would be able to carry the body up the roof, then climb up the cistern's ladder, grab the body and put it into the cistern.

It sounds strange, yes, but so does the whole case.

 

[OCSlacker]

Okay, this obviously made it less difficult to get her up there and the hypothesis of her being squeezed into a suitcase, plastic bag or whatever, less unlikely.



Source: http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm


Does anyone know to what extent it is going to affect the blood pooling when a corpse is found in water resp. when it has been floating around there for several weeks?

I believe this is a link that can explain the effects on the body if death was before being placed in the water or if it was an actual drowning. Bessie posted it in thread 3 if I'm not mistaken. Could be the wrong link though, I've read so much lately that things are all starting to blur together.. it is the article from February 2006 and starts on pg. 15 but pages 19-24 mention information that you may be looking for

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/archive

 

[dotr]

I posted some time ago how I had worked for a number of years as a labourer repairing the old heritage buildings in downtown Vancouver, many of which had ladders like the fire escape ladders on the Cecil Hotel. And yes, I worked on the Cecil Hotel in Vancouver, long before it was torn down.

I carried lots of heavy stuff up and down the vertical ladders. I was really strong then. I cycled, practised Judo, weight trained, and worked as a labourer. But it would have been a real strain for me to carry a 115 lb body up a vertical ladder. You would have to have very strong legs, back, shoulders, arms and hands.

And a second guy wouldn't any help. What would he do? Push on your from below? Pull you hair from above? You have to climb up the ladder at least 2/3 of the way before the second guy could possibly reach down and pull up the body.

Think about it. To carry a 115 lb body up a vertical ladder, you would sling it over your right shoulder. The body is then between you and the ladder, which restricts your ability to climb up the ladder, and the body would push you away from the ladder. Your right leg would keep hitting parts of the body, and you couldn't use you right side and hand much because you are balancing the body to keep it from sliding off your shoulder. So you would be pulling yourself up with your left hand and arm, and stepping up one wrung at a time. And grunting a lot.

Most people can't carry a body up a vertical ladder that has more than a few rungs. Been there.

Next idea is that he can pull the body up the ladder up with a rope.

What rope?

The rope that is kept in a hotel room to pull bodies up to the roof?

Thanks for a great post from someone who obviously knows a thing or two about climbing ladders with weights! Wish I never made the suggestion of the pulley/rope- although it was from the top of my head, old stagehands, old rope, would not be so out of place in LA -besides the most logical way for EL imo to get to the top of that tank is by herself.