CA - Christopher Dorner kills 4 in tri-county rampage, Feb 2013 - #4

[fran]

Camoflage to me says Army vehicle, they are stationed in my town. But Dorner was in the Navy. So how would he get an Army vehicle? He did have camo fatigues on, IIRC.:waitasec:

That's weird about the camo vehicle; but here, navy has fatigues but they're blue tones, rather than green. So that would explain the clothing, but don't know about the vehicle.

JMHO
fran

 

[MsFacetious]

So who would get in trouble for this one??
(Warning graphic description of the suspects dead body.)

Christopher Dorner's badly scorched, partially dismembered body was photographed after his death ...
and TMZ has learned the pics are now being shopped to the media.

http://www.tmz.com/2013/02/20/christopher-dorner-death-pics-sale/


San Bernardino County sheriff’s officials are investigating whether gruesome photos of Christopher Dorner’s body that are being shopped around for sale to the media were taken by someone in their department.

“We don’t believe these are Sheriff’s Department photographs and were likely obtained after Christopher Dorner’s body was released to a private mortuary,” sheriff’s spokeswoman Cindy Bachman said in an email.

http://www.pe.com/local-news/report...nes/20130220-dorner-grisly-photos-surface.ece

 

[CountryGirl]

Dorner's mentor cracked the caseThe LAPD sergeant who played a central role in the rookie's firing told Irvine police about ex-cop's link to victim.

It began for Evans on Monday, Feb. 4 — the day after the bodies of Monica Quan and Keith Lawrence had been found riddled with bullets in their car. Evans, 47, received a message that an officer from a small department south of San Diego was trying to reach her. When she returned the call, the officer told her that he had found pieces of a large-sized police uniform, some ammunition and other items discarded in a dumpster that appeared to belong to an LAPD officer with the last name Dorner. Evans' name and other items were written in a small notebook found with the other things. The officer asked: Did Evans know this guy Dorner?

She did know him. Several years earlier, Evans and Dorner, a rookie cop, had been partners. The pairing had ended badly when Dorner accused Evans of kicking a handcuffed man .

 

[CountryGirl]

Earlier reports and the search warrant said National City contacted Irvine PD with Dorner's name after finding the trash bin material and video. Maybe both led to his FB manifesto and being named a suspect in the Irvine murders?

 

[popsicle]

So who would get in trouble for this one??
(Warning graphic description of the suspects dead body.)

Christopher Dorner's badly scorched, partially dismembered body was photographed after his death ...
and TMZ has learned the pics are now being shopped to the media.

http://www.tmz.com/2013/02/20/christopher-dorner-death-pics-sale/


San Bernardino County sheriff’s officials are investigating whether gruesome photos of Christopher Dorner’s body that are being shopped around for sale to the media were taken by someone in their department.

“We don’t believe these are Sheriff’s Department photographs and were likely obtained after Christopher Dorner’s body was released to a private mortuary,” sheriff’s spokeswoman Cindy Bachman said in an email.

http://www.pe.com/local-news/report...nes/20130220-dorner-grisly-photos-surface.ece

Interesting... and from Dorner's manifesto:

They take photos of your loved ones recently deceased bodies with their cellphones and play a game of who has the most graphic dead body of the night with officers from other divisions. This isn’t just the 20 something year old officers, this is the 50 year old officers with significant time on the job as well who participate.

 

[i.b.nora]

I had to switch to my real computer to be able to read the Los Angeles Times story (I have used up all visits for the month with my iPad).

So to paraphrase, after learning late in the day (Monday night) about the items found in the National City dumpster on Monday, February 4, Evans went to work on Tuesday night, and in talking with some fellow officers, discussing the Irvine case, Evans learned some details, specifically that murder victim Monica Quan was the daughter of Randy Quan, former LAPD Captain, and former lawyer for Dorner.

"Through her night shift, a "nagging, sinking feeling" dogged her. "I have to call Irvine PD," she recalled thinking."

Evans called the Irvine Police Department and told her theory to a supervisor. An Irvine Detective called her back at 1 a.m. and she relayed her theory and suspicions again. A few hours later, her shift ended, and she went home to sleep.

When she awoke, (Wednesday) another Irvine Detective had left a message for her saying they were pursuing her lead and they were on there way to National City to look at Dorner's belongings.

About 1:30 p.m., Irvine Police called her again. They had discovered the manifesto. "I was told my family and I were not safe."

And, from there it hit the evening news, and Websleuths.

At least, thats how I interpret the story. So, it seems she really did play a very important part in the initial identification of Dorner as the killer in the Irvine murders.

I wish in the end, there would be a way to pay closer attention to and to be able to do something about the following:
"At the time Mr. Dorner was terminated, I had a very uneasy feeling. I knew he was very upset and I had concerns that at some point he may try to contact me. So, this was just validating the bad feeling I carried with me for years. I was scared to death."

And, what makes Dorner different than other people who get terminated from their jobs? Why him? The thing that I keep thinking about is that Dorner seems different to me than Holmes (the Aurora shooting) and Adam Lanza in Newtown. He seems more like (to me) someone like George Zimmerman.

 

[Voice4theSilent]

This makes no sense.

Excerpted from the above affidavit ( emphasis added, mine link ):

LAPD Officers located Dorner and his vehicle a dark grey Nissan Titan pickup truck with CA license 8D83997 off Wierick Rd in Corona. LAPD Officers followed the vehicle to the area of Magnolia and the 15 freeway in Corona. While waiting for a backup to contact Dorner, the suspect vehicle stopped and Dorner exited firing multiple .223 caliber rounds from a rifle into the LAPD Officers vehicle. One of the officers received a grazing wound to his head. The vehicle was last seen fleeing eastbound Magnolia Ave from the shooting. An LAPD Officer positively identified Dorner as the suspect who shot at he and his partner.

[...]

The witness observed and RPD police unit pull up next to him in the #2 lane. The witness said he observed a camouflage colored truck stop just southeast of him in the left turn lane. The witness said the window of the truck was down and the driver pointed a rifle at the police unit. The witness described the rifle as a camouflage stock with a black barrel. The witness described the suspect as a black male, heavy set in his 30's to 40's wearing a camouflage long sleeve jacket. The witness said the suspect fired approximately 10 rounds from the rifle into the driver's side of the police unit. The witness said the police unit started to roll forward and he saw the driver of the unit slumped over. The witness said the truck fled north on Magnolia Ave. The witness made a u-turn attempting to follow the truck. The witness observed truck turn west on Central Ave where he lost sight of the suspect vehicle. The witness called 911 and returned to the scene. The witness was shown a six photo lineup where he identified Dorner as the person that looked most like the suspect. The witness said he was 45% sure.​

Does anyone, at all, see the problem here?

I wasn't able to read the article last night when it was posted however when I read it now there is no sentence stating that anyone saw a "camouflage colored truck" in that article (only a camouflage jacket and camouflage colored rifle.) It must have been a simple error on the part of the writer.

MOO There was no other police killer in Riverside that night. Dorner left Corona on Magnolia at approximately 1:30am driving towards Riverside. Approximately 15 minutes later someone matching his exact description (as identified by several witnesses) shows up approximately 15 minutes away from where Dorner was last seen, driving the exact same color, make and model truck, dressed the same, with the same gun and the same bullets, driving in the same direction, and shoots at two more LEOs. I don't see how anyone could possibly question that Dorner was the person responsible for the death of the Riverside LEO.

 

[CountryGirl]

One thing may be his imposing size. And who knows what went on in casual conversation when they worked together, etc. He may have had a problem with a female superior. I have yet to read anything about his father. Anyone know that relationship?

 

[Voice4theSilent]

Yes, that I recall, on the shoot out day, that boy scout ranger said he was wearing camos. Camos are easy to get. But the army vehicle is weird, imo. Which is why I'm wondering if Dorner was actually the guy who shot those officers. I do know when I first heard of that shooting, it seemed off script. Shooting at the other officers, made sense, since they were tailing him. But these two guys were simply sitting at a traffic light and the guy pulls up and shoots them? Leaves me wondering if they just assumed it was him... you know, just like the officers who shot at the civilians. And now that he's dead, they're just figuring it's all good.

To me it makes WAY more sense that Dorner was the one who shot them than some other random cop killer being in the same area at the same time. Riverside has had only 11 cops murdered in their 100+ year history. Dorner had a beef with police and vowed to kill as many as he could. He had just shot another LEO in the head approximately 15 minutes away!

There was no assumption. The bullets matched, the description of the guns matched, the make, model and color of the car matched, the description of the suspect matched, people were able to identify him from a photo line up BEFORE any photos went public of what Dorner looked like, etc.

Aside from all of that, assuming you are correct, why in the world would LE not want to find the "actual" killer of one of their fallen brothers? No way in this big, beautiful world would LE ever just shrug their shoulders "figuring it's all good" and let a cop killer go free.

 

[Voice4theSilent]

One thing may be his imposing size. And who knows what went on in casual conversation when they worked together, etc. He may have had a problem with a female superior. I have yet to read anything about his father. Anyone know that relationship?

I heard a radio interview on a local AM station in the area (KFI) the other day in which the radio personality spoke to a long time neighbor of Dorner's mother. He stated that he never saw a father, never heard of a father and never knew there ever to be a father in the picture.

I have always had a strong feeling from his writing in his manifesto and his actions that he had an issue with women having authority over him. MOO

 

[shadowraiths]

Aside from all of that, assuming you are correct, why in the world would LE not want to find the "actual" killer of one of their fallen brothers?

It's not about "not" wanting to find the "actual" killer. It's about assuming he was the killer. The problem with that approach, imo, is that once they've decided he's the one, they stop considering other possibilities. Moreover, the primary problem I have, after having read the affidavit, was the description of the truck (i.e., an ammo colored truck) along with the witness saying they were 45% sure. Add to that, that they used a 6 photo lineup. Which, dep upon how they did that, could result in a false positive. Esp considering they already felt they had their man. The term confirmation bias might apply here.

 

[CountryGirl]

There was plenty of ballistic evidence at the scene.

 

[Voice4theSilent]

It's not about "not" wanting to find the "actual" killer. It's about assuming he was the killer. The problem with that approach, imo, is that once they've decided he's the one, they stop considering other possibilities. Moreover, the primary problem I have, after having read the affidavit, was the description of the truck (i.e., an ammo colored truck) along with the witness saying they were 45% sure. Add to that, that they used a 6 photo lineup. Which, dep upon how they did that, could result in a false positive. Esp considering they already felt they had their man. The term confirmation bias might apply here.

45% sure and he picked the right guy? Works for me, even if he saw the truck as "camouflage" color instead of dark gray (at 1:40 in the morning during a highly stressful situation.) He correctly described what Dorner was wearing. Plus the other witness independently described the make, model and color of Dorner's truck. Plus, the ammo matched, the type of weapon matched, all of the witness descriptions matched, the truck was the same make, model and color, it was 15 minutes away from where Dorner shot another LEO in the head 15 minutes prior, Dorner was traveling East towards that location when he fled Corona and he ended up in Big Bear within a few hours later (meaning Dorner would have driven right through Riverside, up the same street the LEO was killed), he swore to kill LEO before he died, etc.

From the affidavit in the article that I read at the below link from the Daily Bulletin (BBM):

"Investigators located 13 .223-caliber bullet casings in the intersection with two different manufacturers. The casings and their manufacturers matched the casings located at the scene of the Corona shooting, according to the affidavit."

Read more: http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/c...riverside-police-officer-killed#ixzz2LhJTHBoW

How could any of the above be statistically possible that the shooter in Riverside wasn't Dorner?

If, after ALL of the above, you are going to doubt that Dorner shot the Riverside LEOs why wouldn't you also doubt that he was the one who shot the LEOs in Corona? Is it because the LEO in Riverside died? Perhaps both shootings were at the hand of someone else? I am at a loss as to how anyone would (repeatedly) dispute all of that evidence. :waitasec:

 

[shadowraiths]

The camouflage truck description is in the last paragraph, on page one, of the affidavit ( link ). Yes, I saw the mention of the shell casings in the same said affidavit. Yet no mention of ballistics. .223 ammo is common. Ballistics is what confirms the ammo was shot from the same gun. Surely they ran a ballistics test. And if so, why not also mention that? After all, it would certainly add validity to their allegation they had the right man. Regardless, there are certainly things that have raised questions in my mind from the get go...these include but are not limited to a case that, imho, is made on largely circumstantial evidence. Where the very person he accused of police brutality, fingered him as the Irvine shooter, to the issue of allegedly finding his identification in at least 3 locations, of which, one of the IDs was allegedly his police badge, to the assumption he was the riverside shooter, when the witness described a camouflage truck, to the two civilian vehicles being shot at, resulting in one civilian being shot in the back, to the final, fiery ending, including the chatter exclaiming to "burn that m-fer."

 

[Voice4theSilent]

The camouflage truck description is in the last paragraph, on page one, of the affidavit ( link ). Yes, I saw the mention of the shell casings in the same said affidavit. Yet no mention of ballistics. .223 ammo is common. Ballistics is what confirms the ammo was shot from the same gun. Surely they ran a ballistics test. And if so, why not also mention that? After all, it would certainly add validity to their allegation they had the right man. Regardless, there are certainly things that have raised questions in my mind from the get go...these include but are not limited to a case that, imho, is made on largely circumstantial evidence. Where the very person he accused of police brutality, fingered him as the Irvine shooter, to the issue of allegedly finding his identification in at least 3 locations, of which, one of the IDs was allegedly his police badge, to the assumption he was the riverside shooter, when the witness described a camouflage truck, to the two civilian vehicles being shot at, resulting in one civilian being shot in the back, to the final, fiery ending, including the chatter exclaiming to "burn that m-fer."

I read the affidavit, thank you. It wasn't designed to outline and list every single detail of the investigation; it was designed to include enough evidence to allow for an arrest warrant to be issued for the suspect. It did just that. I don't understand why you would assume there was no ballistic test or ballistic fingerprinting done based solely on the lack of that information in the affidavit. Again, the affidavit (clearly, as there was much evidence left out) didn't include all evidence nor did it need to. Remember, LE hasn't released to the public all of the information and evidence that they have against Dorner.

"Largely circumstantial (which I absolutely DO NOT agree with) doesn't mean it didn't happen. We have seen over and over how cases are won largely on circumstantial evidence.

We all saw the video tape in which Dorner was seen throwing items in the dumpster in San Diego. It is clearly Dorner, not a LE set up. Those items were recovered and given to LE in San Diego who contacted TE because her name was among the items Dorner had discarded. The following day she was given details about the Irvine murders and the connection to LAPD. I would have made the same phone call she did. (If you have ever had the misfortune of having to lay off a disgruntled and unstable employee you know the feeling of need to look over your shoulder that follows you around following the incident, even if the decision wasn't yours to make or didn't involve you. I imagine TE had a strong feeling Dorner was capable of some type of retribution for his "wrongs" and, if so, she was absolutely spot on correct.)

I don't see how Dorner's badges and identification being located in San Diego (where he was staying the days following the murders in Irvine) would be a red flag to you that a conspiracy was in the works. Wouldn't it have been a better ploy to drop them at the locations of the murders instead of randomly around San Diego if it was LE's doing? Seems pretty clear to me that Dorner wanted LE to believe he had fled to Mexico, and what better way to do that than to drop evidence near the border or pretend to try to steel a boat or try to pay fishermen to take him to Mexico. Following the Irvine murders Dorner could have walked right across the border and been long gone but he didn't. He didn't want to go to Mexico but he definitely wanted LE to believe he did. How any of that casts suspicion on LE I surely don't understand.

Again, LE do not name suspects off of "assumptions." Perhaps you are a bit naive about how LE operates? Based off of reliable witness accounts, LE statements, the locations of both shootings, Dorner's manifesto, Dorner's actions in Big Bear, Dorner's mindset and just plain ol' logic and probability I know for a fact Dorner shot the officer in Corona and then the officers in Riverside, and I wasn't even there AND I don't have all of the evidence that LE has (and neither do you so I wouldn't be too quick to accuse them of merely "assuming" it was Dorner.)

Regardless of all of the above, what we do know (and I am certain you would agree with me on this) is that Dorner posted a rambling manifesto to his own Facebook page rambling on about killing LE and their families. One of the men he threatened to kill or kill family members of had a daughter who was murdered in Irvine. The items used in the murder were found in a dumpster with video footage of Dorner himself throwing the items away. Dorner shows up in Corona and shoots a police officer in the head. Dorner takes two hostages in Big Bear, zip ties their arms, covers their mouths and puts pillow cases over their heads and steals their car. He then steals another car at gunpoint and kills another police officer in a deadly shootout (we have all heard the audio of that chilling gun battle.) Dorner then refuses to come out of the cabin he has barricaded himself in and shoots himself in the head. We know he had major issues and wanted to kill police officers and their families based off of his very own writings that detail people and things from his life that date back to him being in grade school. We know he killed the couple in Irvine. We know he was in the area of the Riverside shootings. LE didn't create any of his above actions. He did those things on his own.

Are you saying that the other witness at the scene in Riverside (the taxi driver) was lying about the truck or are you saying that there happened to be two cop killers on the exact same street at the exact same time driving the exact same vehicle with the exact same intent wearing the exact same thing, using the exact same weapon, shooting the exact same ammunition from the exact same TWO identical manufacturers? Impossible!

 

[shadowraiths]

I read the affidavit, thank you.

My comment about where to find the witness account of the camouflaged truck was in response to the following remark that you made earlier. Apologies for not clarifying.

I wasn't able to read the article last night when it was posted however when I read it now there is no sentence stating that anyone saw a "camouflage colored truck" in that article (only a camouflage jacket and camouflage colored rifle.) It must have been a simple error on the part of the writer.

 

[Voice4theSilent]

My comment about where to find the witness account of the camouflaged truck was in response to the following remark that you made earlier. Apologies for not clarifying.

They took the portion about the camouflage truck out of the article (so I assumed it was an error in reporting) but I did find it in the affidavit after I posted that. Thank you.

 

[shadowraiths]

They took the portion about the camouflage truck out of the article (so I assumed it was an error in reporting) but I did find it in the affidavit after I posted that. Thank you.

Yvw.

Btw, I'm not saying Dorner was set up, or for that matter, that he did not shoot those officers. Wrt the latter, however, I simply tend towards caution, due to the numerous false convictions, where LE was certain they had their man. For example ( link )

In an emotional courtroom scene, a 51-year-old man who was wrongly convicted of a 2006 shooting in Oakland wept Friday as he was ordered released by a judge after spending nearly seven years behind bars.

[...]

But the investigating officer, Sgt. Steven Lovell, testified that he had put a picture of Ross - not Embrey - in a photo lineup that he showed to Williams as he lay wounded at Highland Hospital.

Lovell said Ross' only connection to those involved in the case was that he was once a neighbor of Stuart's. He said he had presented the lineup to Williams to "show that the police department was at least doing something."

Williams told Lovell his assailant was bald. But he picked Ross, who had a full head of hair, out of the six-photo lineup.​

That said, the primary reason I raised this as a concern is, if Dorner wasn't the guy who shot the riverside police, then the guy is still at large.

Otoh, since Dorner prolly shot them, then it is a moot point, outside of that I wish the whole thing could have been settled in court as opposed to the way it ended. Regardless, he, of course, made his choice, and took it out of the court's hands.

 

[shadowraiths]

Ashes and Bullets by Susan Straight, The New Yorker ( link )

The bullet, the bullet—the shocking sound of the gun battle on American televisions last Tuesday, all afternoon and into the night the sounds replaying, and if you were outside on the porch, as I was, while my daughter listened inside, it sounded like a hundred American action films—as if actors were crouched behind the patrol cars with doors open, and a lone man inside a remote cabin with a high-powered weapon began the fusillade. Fusillade: that was the sound, the fascination across the nation at another fusillade. The sniper in the University of Texas tower; the man who walked into the McDonald’s in Killeen, Texas; the man who walked into a beauty salon in Manhattan Beach, California; the man who walked into a Sikh temple, and the police officer hit by twelve bullets. That very same officer sitting, listening to the State of the Union, and President Obama speaking of him, and Gabby Giffords, and the parents of the Newtown children, and the parents of one Chicago girl. We heard Obama’s words on most channels, and then, minutes later, on the same channels, we heard automatic weapons firing for what seemed like forever.​

 

[mister happy]

Camp ranger seeks entire $1.2-million reward for Dorner capture

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/07/local/la-me-0308-dorner-reward-20130308