CA - Court upholds Menendez brothers' convictions

[theonewithallthequestions]

MOO - I believe some time in prison was deserved, but definitely not life without parole. The extensive emotional, physical, sexual abuse they suffered is horrific

 

[Seattle1]

“Police sources told the Los Angeles Times that a gun barrel was thrust into José’s mouth after he’d already been shot four times, and a final blast blew off the back of his head.”

Twisted truth behind Menendez brothers' story may free them after 35 years

Nearly 35 years into their incarceration, new evidence has been uncovered that could prove the brothers were victims of vile sexual abuse at the hands of their father.

www.1news.co.nz

It’s also in a 1989 LA Times article but that’s behind a paywall.

Thank you @gitana1.

I don't think it's disputed that the victims died of multiple gunshot wounds or the location of the wounds but I think there was a dispute during trial as to the number of shots that were fired. That said, it doesn't follow that police detectives, the confessed killer, and ME wouldn't testify accurately to the nature of the wounds at trial so I think I'll trust the trial transcript from witness testimony versus what a police source told the Times 35 years later! But makes for a good headline to promote the new Netflix series!

Also, we know from Jose's autopsy that evidence indicates the gun had literally been placed against the back of Jose's head (i.e., soot found on the wound).

JOSE MENENDEZ:

Dr. Irwin Golden of the Los Angeles County Coroner's office conducted their autopsies. Jose's autopsy took place first. The first wound that Dr. Golden examined was the shotgun wound to Jose's head. Golden described the wound as a "gaping laceration," that was five inches by four inches, large enough for an adult to thrust his fist through the wound. The brain had been pulverized. There was also a "deformity of the face" caused by multiple fractures of the facial and jawbones. Soot was also found in the wound, indicating that when the fatal shot was fired, the gun had literally been placed against the back of Jose's head.

The remainder of Jose's wounds would not have been immediately fatal, although all resulted in much loss of blood. There were two shots to the right arm, one below the shoulder that fractured the humerus and the other to the right forearm. There was a shot to the left elbow. The trajectory of the shot was from back to front, indicating that this shot could have been one of the first shots fired at Jose as the killer walked around to the front of the couch to face him. Jose was shot in the lower left knee, creating a three-inch wound that fractured left femur. Golden discovered that there was bleeding into Jose's body tissues along all of the wound paths. This meant that Jose's heart had been pumping blood and that the wound at the back of his head, which investigators initially thought was the first shot fired at Jose, was not. Golden said he could not determine the order of the shots fired at Jose.

KITTY MENENDEZ

Kitty's autopsy revealed that she had been shot in the left cheek which caused a one-inch hole in her face that had fractured her upper jaw and dislodged four of her upper teeth. There were additional wounds to Kitty's skull, fractures to her lower jaw, and pellet wounds to her tongue. A shot had also lacerated her brain. Dr. Golden found birdshot in Kitty's wounds which confirmed the investigator's suspicions that Kitty's killers had reloaded their weapons. None of Jose's wounds contained birdshot. Kitty had three wounds to her face. The most damaging was four inches and extended from Kitty's right cheek across her nose to her left cheek. Golden also discovered that Kitty's right thumb was almost severed. Investigators theorized that Kitty had extended her hand to block the shotgun blast that caused the four-inch wound in her face as a last effort at self-preservation. The only problem with this theory was that the wound to Kitty's hand was on the palm side, not the back of her hand. Most people extend their hands palms out when attempting to defend themselves. Kitty's wound indicated she extended either her blocking hand in a strange position, or she did not want to see who was shooting at her. Kitty also had shotgun wounds to her right forearm and left breast and three wounds to her left leg. The final wound was to her left knee. The shot was from front to back and that was odd because it came from a different angle than the other shots fired at her leg. Investigators theorized that this might have been the last shot fired at Kitty and an attempt to make the murder appear to be a mob hit.
MENENDEZ CRIME LIBRARY

17-CA v. Menendez: Dr. Irwin Golden

Deputy medical examiner Dr. Irwin Golden, who performed the autopsies on Jose and Kitty, takes the stand in the Menendez brothers' trial.

www.courttv.com

At about 23 min mark, parties agree to stipulate that per the ME Dr Golden, there are two contact wounds --Jose (back of head), and Kitty (left cheek), which dismisses the latest notion that Jose was shot from inside his mouth.

 

[Seattle1]

At about 23 min mark, parties agree to stipulate that per the ME Dr Golden, there are two contact wounds --Jose (back of head), and Kitty (left cheek), which dismisses the latest notion that Jose was shot from inside his mouth.

Adding to my post that Dr Golden's testimony begins at about 1:20:00 to discuss Jose's contact entrance wound with the muzzle shadow on the back of Jose's head.

 

[Seattle1]

17-CA v. Menendez: Dr. Irwin Golden

Deputy medical examiner Dr. Irwin Golden, who performed the autopsies on Jose and Kitty, takes the stand in the Menendez brothers' trial.

www.courttv.com

I think my time was best spent watching 2 hours or part 1 of the ME, Dr. Golden's, testimony about the victims versus the Netflix dramatization. The parties agreed to admit two photos by the ME and body diagrams for illustration purposes. The photo of Mom, Kitty and her wounds is absolutely shattering. No words can explain... ... Cowards. MOO

 

[suspicious]

If the boys were abused as they say, then i understand why they killed their parents. Easy for anyone to say, just leave. You can say that about a female who id an absuive relationship. Its not that simple.

If they were raised in loving stable home would they have murdered their parents?

I watched the Netflix series and thought the term monsters were in reference to their parents.

I also believe that the abuse didnt just stop at being physical, sexual or verbal abuse. I believe the lavish gifts are also a form of abuse, especially when it may have been the only form of “love” they received.

We can argue did Jose and Kitty deserve to die… well did the boys deserve the abuse?

These boys are a product of their parents either which way you look at it

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

How? If they both believed they had already been written out of the will, killing their parents wouldn’t do anything to help them get back into the will. It would just ensure that they would get nothing

IANAL. If the father’s will designated the mother as the sole recipient, then where are the monies and belongings likely to go upon her death?

And as @gitana1 notes in post # 404 it could also have been for revenge. And @Seattle1 provides additional information on the point of the will’s possible probate in post # 391 above. MOO

 

[Noirdame79]

Lyle and Eric Menendez shot their father 4 times (he's dying) before putting their gun into their father's mouth (did they have to prop it open) and blowing off the back of his head. Their mother was alive when this happened. That adds emotional pain during death. They shot their mother 10 times before taking a break to reload, then fire the deadly shot. What did they say to each other and to their mother while this was going on?

If their father was the abuser, why did their mother get the worst of it with 6 more bullets and a reload slow death? She watched the murder of her husband by her son - maximum emotional pain. Gun in the mouth. Brutal. So far, this seems to be about Eric and Lyle having a twisted 6 year old childhood relationship with a toothbrush and a pin. Who put the gun in their father's mouth?

Maybe that's something Eric and Lyle Menendez could elaborate on in their documentary series - since dramatization is so disappointing. Who put the gun in their father's mouth? Who killed their mother?

They did not place their gun(s) in Jose's mouth. Lyle testified that he shot Jose in the back of the head. They entered the room in a panicked state of fear and started shooting. Dr. Ann Burgess, an FBI crime scene analyst and criminal profiler, stated that the overkill of the parents corroborates that it was done out of fear. Don't rely on the Monsters miniseries, it is 95% inaccurate and a product of Ryan Murphy's twisted fantasies. There is a reason why Lyle and Erik and their family members are outraged by the miniseries.

Lyle and Erik still viewed Kitty as a threat to their safety, which is why she was shot more times. In addition, Lyle and Erik were not thinking rationally; they were emotionally stunted due to the abuse, and hyper-vigilant, they were also not sleeping well and this also affected their mental state.

Kitty was just as much an abuser as Jose was. This was testified to by both brothers and by multiple family members and teachers. She was verbally, emotionally and physically abusive, and neglected them emotionally and educationally. In addition, Lyle testified that his mother was sexually inappropriate with him, and Erik testified that she would give him genital exams. Family members heard Kitty say that she wished her sons had never been born and they ruined her life, something that both brothers testified that she said to them on numerous occasions. She resented them for taking Jose's attention away from her, especially Lyle, as Jose was particularly fixated on him as he was the oldest and his namesake (Lyle's first name is Joseph, which is an Americanized version of Jose). Jose's sister, Terry Baralt, testified that Kitty was controlling over Lyle's romantic life, and when she and Jose bought the condo for Lyle in Princeton (shortly before the killings) she asked Terry to spy on Lyle at the condo and report back to her, in order to ensure that Lyle's former girlfriend, Jamie, was not living there with Lyle. There was something seriously wrong with this family dynamic and Jose and Kitty had been victimized in their childhoods. It was a cycle that repeated.

The incestuous angle was something that was insinuated by Dominick Dunne and prosecutor Lester Kuriyama, and Ryan Murphy ran with that, but there is no evidence to back that up. Lyle did testify that he sexually abused Erik a few times when they were both under the age of ten, and Lyle was mimicking what his father had done to him. Lyle apologized to Erik in open court for his actions, and they were both extremely emotional.

Please watch the first trial, that will give you far more accurate information.

 

[Noirdame79]

Psychiatrists who evaluated the brothers at the time said that their mental growth was stunted and that they had the mental capacity of I believe 8-10 (Erik) and 12-14 (Lyle).

IMO It’s easy to say/think, “why didn’t they just leave.” But they had been abused, isolated, and were taught to mistrust everyone for so long (and starting from such an early age of life). That kind of treatment has an impact on brain development and they likely couldn’t think about the situation rationally like a person who grew up in a safe, loving environment.

There’s also a lot of misinformation regarding the spending spree.
-Family members have said that their spending after the murders was on par for what the family spent beforehand. They grew up rich and always had access to credit cards.
-All of their purchases were approved of by their family. Their uncle was the executor of their parent’s estate and they called him before making any purchases.
-The brothers didn’t think they were inheriting anything. Their parents told them several times they had already been written out of the will. Family and friends testified to this
-The brothers knew they weren’t getting a payout from their father’s multi million dollar work insurance. They knew that their dad skipped taking his physical due to a heart issue he was trying to keep secret. He was scheduled to take the required physical in a few months I believe. The only payout the brothers received was from a personal insurance policy that they weren’t even aware of until after the murders

Thank you. I really don't like the misinformation that the Monsters miniseries is perpetuating. While there is some good acting and a few good moments, on the whole it is inaccurate and misleading.

 

[Dotta]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1840795252891734235

 

[otto]

If the boys were abused as they say, then i understand why they killed their parents. Easy for anyone to say, just leave. You can say that about a female who id an absuive relationship. Its not that simple.

If they were raised in loving stable home would they have murdered their parents?

I watched the Netflix series and thought the term monsters were in reference to their parents.

I also believe that the abuse didnt just stop at being physical, sexual or verbal abuse. I believe the lavish gifts are also a form of abuse, especially when it may have been the only form of “love” they received.

We can argue did Jose and Kitty deserve to die… well did the boys deserve the abuse?

These boys are a product of their parents either which way you look at it

If the parents were penniless, and their children did not enjoy a life of extreme privilege, would they have murdered their parents? I don't think so.

They were adults. They could move out, file a police report, and test their allegations in court. They had options, but chose to murder their parents knowing that they would inherit their parent's wealth.

Rumours about a second Will disowning the sons are nothing without proof. The rumour serves to explain that the brothers believed they were disowned, therefore they did not murder for money.

 

[Noirdame79]

"The police learned about Kitty's computer from Glen Stevens, a friend of Lyle's. Glen told the police that Lyle had told him that he erased the new will and called a computer expert to ensure that no one would be able to retrieve the computer file."

The Investigation — The Menendez Brothers, notorious killers of their parents Crime Library — Crime Library

The Menendez Brothers, Lyle and Erik, cold-bloodedly murdered their parents for money. It took two trials before they were convicted

www.crimelibrary.org

It was never proven if there was a draft of a will on the computer, but even if there had been, a will is not valid unless it is signed, so it would have been useless. Moreover, the file entitled "will" on the computer was corrupted, and even the computer expert Lyle hired was unable to access it. He was however, able to tell that there were only a few words written in the document. Lyle wanted to sell the computer and didn't want any potential private information on it.

As previously mentioned, Lyle and Erik both testified that their father had told them that they were disinherited months before the killings, and their uncle, Carlos Baralt, testified that Jose had also told him this and that he had informed his sons that they were out of the will. It was later discovered that he actually hadn't removed them from it, however, if Lyle and Erik believed that they had already been disinherited, why would they kill their parents to make sure they would inherit? Makes no sense. The only money that the brothers spent that came from the estate after the killings was a loan for Lyle to purchase the restaurant in New Jersey (which would have to be paid back); the rest of the spent money before they were arrested came from an insurance policy they knew nothing about until after they killed their parents. There was another insurance policy that they were aware of, and they knew that Jose hadn't yet done the physical for it, so if they wanted money from that, they would have waited for him to do that. The money motive falls apart very easily, and the prosecution was never able to prove it.

They had to get approval from their relatives for every purchase they made, and they were asking advice about what to do with the money, and what to do with their lives. They had very little life skills, thanks to their parents. Lyle and Erik grew up with money, spending large amounts was normal for them. Lyle had always been a big spender; he had access to a credit card since he was 15. (Relatives confirmed Lyle always spent a lot of money).

 

[Noirdame79]

If the parents were penniless, and their children did not enjoy a life of extreme privilege, would they have murdered their parents? I don't think so.

They were adults. They could move out, file a police report, and test their allegations in court. They had options, but chose to murder their parents knowing that they would inherit their parent's wealth.

Rumours about a second Will disowning the sons are nothing without proof. The rumour serves to explain that the brothers believed they were disowned, therefore they did not murder for money.

Again, the money motive was never proven.

As for "going to the police", if they weren't believed after, what makes you think they would have been believed before? This was in the 1980s, in Beverly Hills, and their father was a Hollywood executive. 'Nuff said. Who would believe them over him?

There is no evidence that they believed that they would inherit the estate, it's the opposite actually. The estate was not settled until after they were arrested.

I suggest you look up why abused people often don't feel they can leave. Some do, some try, and some are killed by their abuser in the process, or even after they leave. Ironically, Dominick Dunne's daughter, Dominique, is an example of this. She was murdered by her abuser (her ex-boyfriend) after she left the relationship. He came to her house and strangled her in her own driveway. That is proof that leaving your abuser is not a guarantee of safety. If Dominique had killed her abuser, her family would have supported her.

Lyle and Erik saw their parents as all-knowing, and all-powerful. They had very little life skills, as mentioned before and were concluded by psychiatric experts to have the emotional maturity of an 8 to 10 year-old.

 

[Noirdame79]

Lyle and Erik with their paternal grandparents, Jose "Pepin" Menendez and Maria Menendez



Erik and his aunt and godmother, Marta Cano (Jose's sister) at his high school graduation, June 1989


Erik with his wife Tammi and his aunt Joan Vandermolen (Kitty's sister)

 

[Noirdame79]

Leslie Abramson's closing argument in the first trial was brilliant and powerful.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I want to emphasize that the miniseries very powerfully demonstrated the abuse, especially Episode 5. I believe it did happen.

I have read that the incestuous relationship that was hinted at in the series is false. It was only two very brief scenes where it was hinted. Either way, it didn’t change my mind about the brothers being abused.

They didn’t kill their parents immediately during the abuse, which I think would have been eligible for a self-defense pleading. To me, it seemed more like they executed them later, in revenge for years of abuse. I can see and understand the psychological comparison to a partner enduring BSS.

They have spent some 30+ years in prison. Will be interesting to see how the legal challenges (if brought) are handled; if the LWOP stands or is overturned.

jmo

 

[otto]

Again, the money motive was never proven.

As for "going to the police", if they weren't believed after, what makes you think they would have been believed before? This was in the 1980s, in Beverly Hills, and their father was a Hollywood executive. 'Nuff said. Who would believe them over him?

There is no evidence that they believed that they would inherit the estate, it's the opposite actually. The estate was not settled until after they were arrested.

I suggest you look up why abused people often don't feel they can leave. Some do, some try, and some are killed by their abuser in the process, or even after they leave. Ironically, Dominick Dunne's daughter, Dominique, is an example of this. She was murdered by her abuser (her ex-boyfriend) after she left the relationship. He came to her house and strangled her in her own driveway. That is proof that leaving your abuser is not a guarantee of safety. If Dominique had killed her abuser, her family would have supported her.

Lyle and Erik saw their parents as all-knowing, and all-powerful. They had very little life skills, as mentioned before and were concluded by psychiatric experts to have the emotional maturity of an 8 to 10 year-old.

I think everyone enjoys a good scandal, even in 1980. If two young men told Hollywood that their hollywood executive dad was a sex offender, everyone would be listening. That would have kept the tabloids in-the-money for years.

Life in 1980 was much the same as today - only difference today is the internet and more people on the planet. People were not uneducated or ignorant in 1980. They were the generation that invented the computer and the internet. They deserve a little credit.

Regarding murder for millions, any thoughts on why the two young men immediately went on a spending spree after they murdered their parents? Porsche, Rolex, restaurant, house, bodyguards, limousines, chauffeur. Was it Retail Therapy?

July 28, 1993

"Within a week after his parents were killed, Lyle Menendez went on a spending spree, shopping for a Porsche, a house, a restaurant and clothes and hiring a bodyguard, a good friend and the bodyguard testified Tuesday.

When Menendez ventured outside, he rode in a limousine, trailed discreetly by guards in a second car, a “crash vehicle” that could ferry him to safety in an emergency, bodyguard Richard Wenskoski said.
...

Wenskoski and a partner provided 24-hour-a-day service and accompanied Lyle Menendez on his many shopping trips, even a 15-minute test ride in a white Porsche, Wenskoski said. Lyle Menendez drove the car and zipped along over the speed limit, Wenskoski said.
...

Wherever he went that fall, Lyle Menendez sported a Rolex watch, Stevens said.
...

In late 1989, Lyle Menendez made a $300,000 down payment on a $550,000 Princeton restaurant that specialized in spicy buffalo wings, Stevens said. He added that he was being paid $600 a week to oversee it and Lyle’s investments.
...

At the parents’ wake, Stevens said, Lyle Menendez told him: “Well, I’ve been waiting so long to be in this position, that I’m prepared for it.”"

Lyle Menendez Went on Spree After Killings, Witnesses Say

Within a week after his parents were killed, Lyle Menendez went on a spending spree, shopping for a Porsche, a house, a restaurant and clothes and hiring a bodyguard, a good friend and the bodyguard testified Tuesday.

www.latimes.com

 

[MadMcGoo]

AS A REMINDER,

Anything you post as fact must be accompanied by an approved source link. Screenshots and/or images also require an approved source link.

Thanks!
Mad

 

[Noirdame79]

I think everyone enjoys a good scandal, even in 1980. If two young men told Hollywood that their hollywood executive dad was a sex offender, everyone would be listening. That would have kept the tabloids in-the-money for years.

Life in 1980 was much the same as today - only difference today is the internet and more people on the planet. People were not uneducated or ignorant in 1980. They were the generation that invented the computer and the internet. They deserve a little credit.

Regarding murder for millions, any thoughts on why the two young men immediately went on a spending spree after they murdered their parents? Porsche, Rolex, restaurant, house, bodyguards, limousines, chauffeur. Was it Retail Therapy?

July 28, 1993

"Within a week after his parents were killed, Lyle Menendez went on a spending spree, shopping for a Porsche, a house, a restaurant and clothes and hiring a bodyguard, a good friend and the bodyguard testified Tuesday.

When Menendez ventured outside, he rode in a limousine, trailed discreetly by guards in a second car, a “crash vehicle” that could ferry him to safety in an emergency, bodyguard Richard Wenskoski said.
...

Wenskoski and a partner provided 24-hour-a-day service and accompanied Lyle Menendez on his many shopping trips, even a 15-minute test ride in a white Porsche, Wenskoski said. Lyle Menendez drove the car and zipped along over the speed limit, Wenskoski said.
...

Wherever he went that fall, Lyle Menendez sported a Rolex watch, Stevens said.
...

In late 1989, Lyle Menendez made a $300,000 down payment on a $550,000 Princeton restaurant that specialized in spicy buffalo wings, Stevens said. He added that he was being paid $600 a week to oversee it and Lyle’s investments.
...

At the parents’ wake, Stevens said, Lyle Menendez told him: “Well, I’ve been waiting so long to be in this position, that I’m prepared for it.”"

Lyle Menendez Went on Spree After Killings, Witnesses Say

Within a week after his parents were killed, Lyle Menendez went on a spending spree, shopping for a Porsche, a house, a restaurant and clothes and hiring a bodyguard, a good friend and the bodyguard testified Tuesday.

www.latimes.com

Compulsive over-spending is a symptom of PTSD, and there is also something called "retail therapy". Spending money does not mean that someone wasn't abused. It's a ridiculous argument, especially considering that they were accustomed to that kind of spending.

The #Metoo movement shows why people often don't come forward, especially in the entertainment industry. "Everyone loves a good scandal" - this is about two young men who were horribly victimized, who were deeply traumatized, and ashamed. People were much more ignorant in the 1980s. There was a prolonged belief that males couldn't be abused, and that fathers did not sexually abuse their sons. That goes beyond a "scandal" and Lyle and Erik feared that their parents would kill them rather than let them exposed them as abusers. [mod snip]

 

[otto]

Compulsive over-spending is a symptom of PTSD, and there is also something called "retail therapy". Spending money does not mean that someone wasn't abused. It's a ridiculous argument, especially considering that they were accustomed to that kind of spending.

The #Metoo movement shows why people often don't come forward, especially in the entertainment industry. "Everyone loves a good scandal" - this is about two young men who were horribly victimized, who were deeply traumatized, and ashamed. People were much more ignorant in the 1980s. There was a prolonged belief that males couldn't be abused, and that fathers did not sexually abuse their sons. That goes beyond a "scandal" and Lyle and Erik feared that their parents would kill them rather than let them exposed them as abusers. I can tell that you haven't watched the trial.

It's not a ridiculous argument, it's connecting the dots. Two young men were expected to attend university, complete degrees and work. Neither was interested in studying.

Their parents had $14M. The men wanted to live a wealthy lifestyle with nice cars, nice watch, expensive clothing. They decided to murder their parents, blame gangsters, and live the good life.

After meeting their lawyer, they produced an unbelievable story about abuse. It was not believed at the time, and there's no reason to believe it now. There was no 1980s culture that was ignorant of child abuse. That's a myth.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Psychiatrist who admitted altering notes in Menendez brothers’ murder trial in the ’90s surrenders license

Found this earlier post up thread to be interesting. The Los Angeles Times online July 9, 2019 article by Leila Miller is entitled ‘Psychiatrist who admitted altering notes in Menendez brothers’ murder trial in the ’90s surrenders license’. Link is given below to the article.

As I understand it, appears the defense counsel Abramsom was alleged to have pressured a defense witness therapist to alter their notes. Those allegations were apparently denied by counsel. The State Bar of California later cleared Abramson of misconduct for her representation of EM. IIUC the allegations of that pressured witness arose during the second trial. MOO

Psychiatrist who admitted altering notes in Menendez brothers’ murder trial in the ’90s surrenders license

A psychiatrist who caused an uproar in the 1990s when he admitted altering clinical notes in the infamous Menendez brothers’ murder trial has agreed to surrender his medical license over new allegations of wrongdoing, according to the Medical Board of California.

www.latimes.com