CA - Court upholds Menendez brothers' convictions

[Noirdame79]

I was watching the testimony of Brian Andersen Sr (Kitty's brother). It was really bizarre. He claimed that the boys would talk back to their parents constantly, but he couldn't give an example of it happening. He claimed to be the closest family member to Kitty, but didn't know much about her depression, heavily troubled marriage or the boys. He could never recall how old the boys were when he visited them, or when Eric's birthday was. He also defended Jose's illegal hand signals during a tennis match and LIED on the stand about Kitty consoling Eric afterwards. Just bizarre stuff.

Contrast his testimony to that of his ex-wife, Patricia, with whom Kitty confided that she wished she could also get a divorce.

Contrast his testimony to that of his son, Brian Jr, who actually lived with the Menendez family and experienced the abusive parents first-hand.

I also found out that Brian Sr initially refused to be a witness! In April 1992, the defense team told the family that the boys had killed their parents and wanted to finally disclose their abuse. They got crickets from Brian Sr.
In October, he petitioned the probate court to exclude the Menendez family from any money left in Jose and Kitty's estate. He wanted the money exclusively awarded to the "Andersen" side. In November, the court responded that they would not consider his petition unless or until the brothers were actually convicted.

So suddenly, 10 days before the trial, he decided to become a witness for the prosecution.

I agree; his testimony is strange. I felt second-hand embarrassment watching it since it's clear he didn't know as much as he claimed, and the prosecution likely didn't prepare him beforehand (this seems to be something of a pattern with their witnesses). On cross-examination, he didn't deny the documentation he filed in probate court, claiming that the Andersen side was entitled to part of the estate because it appeared that Kitty survived Jose by a few seconds. So weird, and it didn't seem like a move by a loving brother. I think his son disowned him over his refusal to believe Lyle and Erik. In the second trial, Brian Sr and his older brother Milton testified for the prosecution in the penalty phase, and they wanted the death penalty.

The DA's Office sought the death penalty against the Menendez brothers, who had no history of violence before killing their parents. Yet, this same DA's Office did not seek the death penalty against OJ Simpson, who not only had a history of violence but also had a history of abusing and stalking one of the people (his ex-wife) he was charged with killing. It makes no sense.

MOO

 

[Salah11]

If there was so much abuse going on in the home why did none of the extended family never step in? - I don’t mean just sexual even the physical stuff.

Erik claimed he was being abused right up until his father died but look at the size of Erik as a 18 year old and he couldn’t stop him at that stage?

Some of it simply doesn’t add up.

Moo

 

[Jw192]

It has nothing to do with Ryan Murphy or Tik Tok. The DA has been reviewing their case since last year after Roy Rosello, formerly of the Latin boy band Menudo, came forward, stating that Jose Menendez raped him when he was 14. The reason why this is significant is because the prosecution (in both trials, but especially the second one) stated that there was no abuse and that Jose and Kitty would never abuse their children, and specifically, that Jose would not sexually abuse his sons and that he was not a predator. Another victim coming forward makes that argument invalid.

MOO

I respectfully disagree with you. None of what you have said has or can be proven. I completely understand why they kept abuse allegations out of the second trial as it was Eric and Lyle on trial, nobody else and again abuse IF proven in these instances is a mitigating factor at sentencing, not something to throw about in a murder trial as a warped attempt at justification. Like it or not, the victims in those trials were Jose and Kitty Menendez.

I can tell that you're very pro menendez brothers and each to their own, you do you, I'm unsure if your stance on the case as whole though, like what do you believe their sentence should have been given you wholly believe the abuse claims...

We can back and forth until the end of nether but regardless, they're convicted murderers and will remain convicted murderers even IF the judge approves this plea, and IF a parole board lets them out... Which I reckon will happen in all honesty, especially with the Netflix army and the likes of Kim K #'ing until their fingers go numb.

MO

 

[Chimera]

I do not believe their mental ages were younger due to trauma, then or now.
To refer to them as 'boys' or of a younger age mentally is to paint them as victims.
My opinion is that they were -- and still are -- of sound mind.

They were young men when they committed the murders and are middle aged men now.
They were free to come and go and iirc, they'd been burglarizing other homes ?

Video Menendez brothers implicated in burglaries in Los Angeles area: Part 2

Lyle and Erik Menendez were caught in burglaries around their Calabasas, California, neighborhood and Erik was put on probation. The family moved to Beverly Hills.

abcnews.go.com

Lyle and Erik Menendez were caught in burglaries around their Calabasas, California, neighborhood and Erik was put on probation. The family moved to Beverly Hills.​

Red emphasis mine.

If anything, it sounds as though Jose may have tried to cover for them somewhat ?
These are not the actions of an abusive father, although certainly not the wisest choice.

Imo -- crafty, cunning, and worldly-wise; but not boys in any sense of the word.
They were old enough to move out, and to begin proceedings against Jose if he'd been guilty of what has been speculation only !
It's an upside-down world where the victims are portrayed as the criminal and the killers made into victims.
It's sad and unfair.
Omo.

 

[mickey2942]

I do not want to blame victims of CSA, which is terrible. I have worked in Substance Abuse, with people who are homeless, and people who have been in prison and jail with a variety of charges.

90% of the people have stated that they were victims of CSA. I do not doubt their veracity, because that is not my job. I simply document the information presented.

It is unusual to find someone in prison who states that they have not been a victim of SA, as a child or adult.

 

[Chimera]

Admittedly I'm curious if they're released; will it open the floodgates, and thousand of killers will be allowed to walk free -- if they can get a family member or friend to testify in their behalf that they were abused as children ?
If the Menendez' brothers are freed, why not many other murderers who may have had traumatic childhoods ?
Fwiw, I tend to disagree.
You murder anyone in cold blood and you should be locked up.
Makes my blood run cold.

If those who have had an abusive childhood commit crimes as an adult --they still need to pay the penalty for that crime, imo.
What about those who've endured abuse as a child, and still went on to live a compassionate and productive life ?

There's no excuse for murder.
Omo.

 

[Jw192]

Admittedly I'm curious if they're released; will it open the floodgates, and thousand of killers will be allowed to walk free -- if they can get a family member or friend to testify in their behalf that they were abused as children ?
If the Menendez' brothers are freed, why not many other murderers who may have had traumatic childhoods ?
Fwiw, I tend to disagree.
You murder anyone in cold blood and you should be locked up.
Makes my blood run cold.

If those who have had an abusive childhood commit crimes as an adult --they still need to pay the penalty for that crime, imo.
What about those who've endured abuse as a child, and still went on to live a compassionate and productive life ?

There's no excuse for murder.
Omo.

Moreso cases where an alleged victim of abuse murders their alleged abuser I think, but yah I agree, it's potentially opening some naughty floodgates I think.

What next, Jodi Arias being let out with time served? After all, she claimed abuse, had people testifying on her behalf... She claimed self defense, said Travis was going to kill her...
What was proven in court though was that she premeditated and acted out his coldblooded murder. Ring any bells?

MO

 

[Noirdame79]

If there was so much abuse going on in the home why did none of the extended family never step in? - I don’t mean just sexual even the physical stuff.

Erik claimed he was being abused right up until his father died but look at the size of Erik as a 18 year old and he couldn’t stop him at that stage?

Some of it simply doesn’t add up.

Moo

You'd be surprised how often that happens. Teachers and coaches also suspected that something was wrong. The few coaches who tried to intervene were fired. The family members were intimidated by the parents and didn't think it was their place to interfere. It was also the 1970s and 1980s. The cousins who witnessed the abuse and/or whom the brothers confided to about the SA were children themselves, and were mistreated by the parents as well. Grown adults were afraid of Jose and Kitty Menendez and Jose's wealth and power only made things worse.

Anyone can be a victim of sexual assault. Age, gender, size, physical strength doesn't matter. It's not just about physical power or coercion; it can be emotional and psychological as well. Erik had grown up under his father's power and dominance, and trauma changes the way the brain develops, and grown men feared his father.

MOO

 

[theonewithallthequestions]

Since it seems like a lot of people on here doubt or outright dismiss the sexual abuse, I figured I’d post some of the proof here as reminder that there is in fact evidence.

Donovan Goodreau, a prosecution witness, was recorded on tape months before the trial saying that Lyle revealed he and his brother were molested by Jose 4 months before the murders. Glenn Stevens, another prosecution witness and former friend of Lyle’s was also told about the sexual abuse months before the murders.

From the tape recordings/Robert Rand’s book:

“GOODREAU: We were at a Chinese restaurant . . . he says, I know everything about you, you’re my best friend. I know everything about you. It was real—you couldn’t fake the kind of emotion he was giving me right then.

Goodreau told Lyle that when he was a child, he was molested by a friend of his family.

GOODREAU: I’m telling the story, I’m all choked up, and then he was in tears. For twenty minutes, he didn’t speak.
RAND: Basically, he said his father had been abusing Erik?
GOODREAU: Yeah, him and Erik.
RAND: Lyle also?
GOODREAU: Yeah. He would take baths with him and stuff. Just, oh, man . . . you’re just . . . it’s weird because you felt—we weren’t drinking, we were just sitting there, the whole place was closed, the chairs were up on the table, the guy’s waiting for us to leave and he’s telling me this. I could’ve fallen out of the back of my seat. He’s telling me about him and his younger brother, and how his brother had been the most affected by it because he’s younger and more impressionable.”

I’ve transcribed part of what Jill Lansing quotes from the tape recording. This is Donovan Goodreau telling Robert Rand his conversation with Glenn Stevens in which Glenn surprised him by sharing he was also told about the molestation. Starts at the 32:07 mark in this video - from the first trial 68-CA v. Menendez: Witness Testimony

"And Glenn just freaked me out because I thought Lyle...I thought I was the only one who heard about that or knew about that and all of a sudden Glenn told me the same thing. He said, "did you know about the molestation and all that?""

"And he brought it up again and I'd almost forgotten about it. And he brought it up again and I just couldn't believe it. I said really? I said I didn't know about that and it was kind of strange for him to tell me because I was wondering under what circumstances he would tell Glenn."

"And you know, I thought he was having problems. You know, Lyle was scared too. The house at Calabasas had this huge bathtub and he was like fearing this thing to the gods end..."

From the tape recordings Robert Rand has - the bathtub in the new house refers to the Calabasas house (IMO indicates that Lyle’s abuse went on for a longer period of time and he actually downplayed it or repressed it, which is horrifying to think about):

““Lyle started telling me stories about Jose sexually abusing Erik when he was little. He said they took showers and baths together. The big bathtub in the new house was for sex scenes.””

From Robert Rand’s blog Then There Was the Time I Became a Witness in the Trial - The Menendez Murders:

“Later, I found an October 1990 taped interview with Glenn Stevens in which he told me that Lyle had confided in him four months before the murders that the brothers had been molested.

The conversation took place when they were visiting the neighborhood where Lyle grew up in Monsey, N.Y. In the interview, Stevens expressed his surprise that Lyle had told Donovan about the molestation. (This was several years before the abuse of Erik and Lyle was revealed in the media.)”

 

[mickey2942]

My issue, is that this will open a "Pandora's Box" of people who want to be resentenced with new guidelines. Where will it stop?

 

[LadyL]

Since it seems like a lot of people on here doubt or outright dismiss the sexual abuse, I figured I’d post some of the proof here as reminder that there is in fact evidence.

Donovan Goodreau, a prosecution witness, was recorded on tape months before the trial saying that Lyle revealed he and his brother were molested by Jose 4 months before the murders. Glenn Stevens, another prosecution witness and former friend of Lyle’s was also told about the sexual abuse months before the murders.

From the tape recordings/Robert Rand’s book:

“GOODREAU: We were at a Chinese restaurant . . . he says, I know everything about you, you’re my best friend. I know everything about you. It was real—you couldn’t fake the kind of emotion he was giving me right then.

Goodreau told Lyle that when he was a child, he was molested by a friend of his family.

GOODREAU: I’m telling the story, I’m all choked up, and then he was in tears. For twenty minutes, he didn’t speak.
RAND: Basically, he said his father had been abusing Erik?
GOODREAU: Yeah, him and Erik.
RAND: Lyle also?
GOODREAU: Yeah. He would take baths with him and stuff. Just, oh, man . . . you’re just . . . it’s weird because you felt—we weren’t drinking, we were just sitting there, the whole place was closed, the chairs were up on the table, the guy’s waiting for us to leave and he’s telling me this. I could’ve fallen out of the back of my seat. He’s telling me about him and his younger brother, and how his brother had been the most affected by it because he’s younger and more impressionable.”

I’ve transcribed part of what Jill Lansing quotes from the tape recording. This is Donovan Goodreau telling Robert Rand his conversation with Glenn Stevens in which Glenn surprised him by sharing he was also told about the molestation. Starts at the 32:07 mark in this video - from the first trial 68-CA v. Menendez: Witness Testimony

"And Glenn just freaked me out because I thought Lyle...I thought I was the only one who heard about that or knew about that and all of a sudden Glenn told me the same thing. He said, "did you know about the molestation and all that?""

"And he brought it up again and I'd almost forgotten about it. And he brought it up again and I just couldn't believe it. I said really? I said I didn't know about that and it was kind of strange for him to tell me because I was wondering under what circumstances he would tell Glenn."

"And you know, I thought he was having problems. You know, Lyle was scared too. The house at Calabasas had this huge bathtub and he was like fearing this thing to the gods end..."

From the tape recordings Robert Rand has - the bathtub in the new house refers to the Calabasas house (IMO indicates that Lyle’s abuse went on for a longer period of time and he actually downplayed it or repressed it, which is horrifying to think about):

““Lyle started telling me stories about Jose sexually abusing Erik when he was little. He said they took showers and baths together. The big bathtub in the new house was for sex scenes.””

From Robert Rand’s blog Then There Was the Time I Became a Witness in the Trial - The Menendez Murders:

“Later, I found an October 1990 taped interview with Glenn Stevens in which he told me that Lyle had confided in him four months before the murders that the brothers had been molested.

The conversation took place when they were visiting the neighborhood where Lyle grew up in Monsey, N.Y. In the interview, Stevens expressed his surprise that Lyle had told Donovan about the molestation. (This was several years before the abuse of Erik and Lyle was revealed in the media.)”

the murderers telling people their stories is not evidence or proof - they probably planned it in advance and agreed to tell people their made-up tales JMO

and the people who believed them are just more of their victims - being manipulated by psychopaths is nothing new or surprising

 

[Salah11]

I am confused so can anybody jog my memory as I thought Lyle only found out about Erik being abused a week or two before the murders?

Yet that best friend claims Lyle told him months before about them both being abused?

 

[ForensicPatterns]

The financial motive was never proven in either trial. It was merely a prosecution theory. It was also confirmed via eyewitness testimony that the mother was abusive and neglectful and put her husband and lifestyle first. Erik had graduated from high school a few months before and had never lived away from home. Lyle was home visiting from Princeton. Their mental ages were younger due to trauma. They also didn't think that they could successfully get away from their father, who was wealthy and powerful. People have been killed by their abusers after leaving the situation or when they are attempting to leave.

JMO

So basically a textbook psychopathic parent. And in case people here don’t know what a psychopathic main give away traits are….

Five common markers/traits of psychopaths:

1. Grandiose / Sense of Self Worth
2. Sadism / Like to Harm Others
3. Glibness / Charm
4. Conning / Manipulation
5. Callous / Lack of Empathy

 

[ForensicPatterns]

You'd be surprised how often that happens. Teachers and coaches also suspected that something was wrong. The few coaches who tried to intervene were fired. The family members were intimidated by the parents and didn't think it was their place to interfere. It was also the 1970s and 1980s. The cousins who witnessed the abuse and/or whom the brothers confided to about the SA were children themselves, and were mistreated by the parents as well. Grown adults were afraid of Jose and Kitty Menendez and Jose's wealth and power only made things worse.

Anyone can be a victim of sexual assault. Age, gender, size, physical strength doesn't matter. It's not just about physical power or coercion; it can be emotional and psychological as well. Erik had grown up under his father's power and dominance, and trauma changes the way the brain develops, and grown men feared his father.

MOO

Can agree! I have an ex who was sexually abused as a child. Also went to a high school where a softball coach was molested his teenage girls on the team.

What I know first hand having seen it from an ex is the fact his mother and one aunt refused to ever discuss what happened, turn a blind eye to it. A lot of adults who know what happened, if it’s someone they care about deeply they will refuse to do anything about it because the child is expendable in their eyes.

You see this with Narcissistic or Psyvhopsyhic parents. They rather preserve the perfect little family image or wealthy lifestyle, keep their power in tact over the well being of their own children.

 

[abams]

the murderers telling people their stories is not evidence or proof - they probably planned it in advance and agreed to tell people their made-up tales JMO

and the people who believed them are just more of their victims - being manipulated by psychopaths is nothing new or surprising

Just curious, what other evidence of abuse would you find sufficient to believe them? Even abuse allegations that are investigated are notoriously tricky to substantiate. For me the testimony of relatives who actually spent time with the family, or that of others who were close to them, is compelling.

 

[MoominMama222]

My issue, is that this will open a "Pandora's Box" of people who want to be resentenced with new guidelines. Where will it stop?

What I heard in the press conference is that they already do resentencing using certain guidelines and that this case met the requirements for it. It's not like it's a new thing. Or am I missing something? At the presser the DA mentioned maybe a few hundred cases and the recidivism rates of those. There is a system in place for this and they followed that system. It wasn't just the SA that led to the resentencing. They looked at the whole context and came to this recommendation as they have with other cases in the past. So it's not like every case with any claim of SA will be considered in the future. Certain criteria must be met. Moo

 

[Noirdame79]

I am confused so can anybody jog my memory as I thought Lyle only found out about Erik being abused a week or two before the murders?

Yet that best friend claims Lyle told him months before about them both being abused?

When he was 13, Lyle, who had been sexually abused by Jose when he was younger, heard noises that led him to suspect that Jose was doing the he same thing to Erik. Lyle asked his father to stop. Jose said told him that it would. Lyle testified that he put out of his mind after that, so he was genuinely shocked when Erik later told him shortly before the killings that it was still happening.

It was a common occurrence for Jose to shower with his sons, even when they were teenagers. In an interview with Robert Rand in the fall of 1989, Erik mentioned that he and his father "took showers together" and this interview was months before he and Lyle were arrested.

There's also a possibility that Lyle's abuse went on for longer than he admitted; he was very reluctant to testify about the SA to begin with.

MOO

 

[theonewithallthequestions]

the murderers telling people their stories is not evidence or proof - they probably planned it in advance and agreed to tell people their made-up tales JMO

and the people who believed them are just more of their victims - being manipulated by psychopaths is nothing new or surprising

That doesn’t really make any sense considering they were hesitant to admit that they were sexually abused. Lyle told Donovan about the abuse months before August 1989. If it was all part of some nefarious plan, you’d think the first thing Lyle would say after being arrested would be “go ask Donovan, I told him about the sexual abuse.” But that never happened. It wasn’t some made up tale or something they planned.

Not only did Lyle not keep in touch with Donovan after he left Princeton (not very smart if he was supposedly hoping Donovan could vouch for him and help his case), but he wasn’t even the one who put Robert Rand in touch with Donovan. Lead detective Les Zoeller was actually the one who put Rand in touch with Donovan.

From Robert Rand’s book:
“Shortly after Erik and Lyle’s arrest, Les Zoeller had told me, over lunch, “There’s a very interesting guy you should talk to in New York City who could give you a lot of information.” In July 1990, four months after the arrests, I finally met the interesting guy—Donovan Goodreau.”

Excerpt From
The Menendez Murders
Rand, Robert;

 

[theonewithallthequestions]

Deleted

 

[Chimera]

the murderers telling people their stories is not evidence or proof - they probably planned it in advance and agreed to tell people their made-up tales JMO

and the people who believed them are just more of their victims - being manipulated by psychopaths is nothing new or surprising

Bbm.
Agreed.
Esp. that last sentence.
Sad but true.
Imo.