CA - Court upholds Menendez brothers' convictions

[LadyL]

So basically a textbook psychopathic parent. And in case people here don’t know what a psychopathic main give away traits are….

Five common markers/traits of psychopaths:

1. Grandiose / Sense of Self Worth
2. Sadism / Like to Harm Others
3. Glibness / Charm
4. Conning / Manipulation
5. Callous / Lack of Empathy

yep that describes the brothers pretty well

 

[LadyL]

I am confused so can anybody jog my memory as I thought Lyle only found out about Erik being abused a week or two before the murders?

Yet that best friend claims Lyle told him months before about them both being abused?

interesting catch

 

[LadyL]

That doesn’t really make any sense considering they were hesitant to admit that they were sexually abused. Lyle told Donovan about the abuse months before August 1989. If it was all part of some nefarious plan, you’d think the first thing Lyle would say after being arrested would be “go ask Donovan, I told him about the sexual abuse.” But that never happened. It wasn’t some made up tale or something they planned.

Not only did Lyle not keep in touch with Donovan after he left Princeton (not very smart if he was supposedly hoping Donovan could vouch for him and help his case), but he wasn’t even the one who put Robert Rand in touch with Donovan. Lead detective Les Zoeller was actually the one who put Rand in touch with Donovan.

From Robert Rand’s book:
“Shortly after Erik and Lyle’s arrest, Les Zoeller had told me, over lunch, “There’s a very interesting guy you should talk to in New York City who could give you a lot of information.” In July 1990, four months after the arrests, I finally met the interesting guy—Donovan Goodreau.”

Excerpt From
The Menendez Murders
Rand, Robert;

psychopaths are really good at manipulating people and stories to fit their agenda
they will even pretend to be hesitant about admitting something that they planted in people's minds to begin with

 

[theonewithallthequestions]

psychopaths are really good at manipulating people and stories to fit their agenda
they will even pretend to be hesitant about admitting something that they planted in people's minds to begin with

Neither brother has ever been diagnosed a psychopath.

Again, it doesn’t make any sense to believe they planted something that would have helped their case months before and then just never follow up on it. Had Les Zoeller not put Robert Rand in touch with Donovan Goodreau, I don’t think the conversation between Lyle and Donovan would have ever come to light. Donovan didn’t even want to admit to the conversation (out of fear of being the first to talk about the sexual abuse in the trial) until he was confronted with the recordings on the stand

But I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I strongly believe the brothers were horrifically abused and there’s plenty of corroborating evidence IMO. <modsnip: personalizing>

 

[MadMcGoo]

Opinions of the brothers’ guilt or innocence are universally polarizing. This thread isn’t meant to be a debate forum. Please, agree to disagree and move on. Members don’t have to respond to every single post, and are encouraged to use the “ignore” feature rather than bicker and argue with another member.

Thanks for keeping the discussion civil and Websleuths amazing!
Mad

 

[Noirdame79]

Something that I wanted to mention and that I think bears repeating is that Jose Menendez was a Hollywood executive. (When the family lived on the East Coast, he was an executive at RCA Records, hence the Menudo connection; when the family moved to California, he took over the now-defunct video company Live Entertainment, which was a division of Carlco Pictures, and of which Jose was chairman). The #MeToo movement showed how people in positions of power (not just in Hollywood) were and are often protected by their wealth and power, and that's one of the reasons why victims and/or individuals who have knowledge about crimes these powerful people have committed are reluctant or downright terrified of coming forward.

This case happened long before #MeToo, and I doubt that Lyle and Erik would have been believed if they tried to report Jose and Kitty. Complicating things further is that people didn't want to believe that parents could abuse their children, especially sexually. Abusive parents tend to portray their children as the problem as well. I can't see Jose and Kitty being prosecuted for abuse at that time had they lived.

MOO

 

[BrownRice]

the murderers telling people their stories is not evidence or proof - they probably planned it in advance and agreed to tell people their made-up tales JMO

and the people who believed them are just more of their victims - being manipulated by psychopaths is nothing new or surprising

Exactly my thoughts. By telling friends ahead of time about the molestation, that could provide his self defense theory. But there’s still no proof. I don’t buy it and feel they should stay where they are.

Another poster up a few mentioned their work in the justice system and how many of those incarcerated are CSA victims. I totally believe it. It’s horrible how it can destroy a child’s future. And I wish nobody had to suffer thru this. At the same time, it’s often used in divorce cases falsely to get custody away from the other parent, so I totally believe people would use it as an excuse for murder, especially when a huge inheritance could be at stake.

 

[housewife]

the murderers telling people their stories is not evidence or proof - they probably planned it in advance and agreed to tell people their made-up tales JMO

and the people who believed them are just more of their victims - being manipulated by psychopaths is nothing new or surprising

How far in advance did the brothers plan the murders? Was Lyle already a psychopath at 8 years old when he disclosed abuse to their cousin Diane?
Many children are not believed when they disclose CSA (childhood sexual abuse). IMO, I think it's the brain's defense mechanism -- deny the idea your beloved family member is capable of such heinous crimes.

"Results revealed that the vast majority of child victims contacting the hotline following a single disclosure event described receiving a negative reaction. Children frequently described being disbelieved or dismissed, typically, by a non-offending family member. Future work should pursue the development of targeted public education campaigns, and consider the victim-perpetrator relationship when drawing inferences on the experiences of sexual abuse victims."

 

[housewife]

At the same time, it’s often used in divorce cases falsely to get custody away from the other parent, so I totally believe people would use it as an excuse for murder, especially when a huge inheritance could be at stake.

Do you have a source for how often it's used in divorce cases to falsely get custody? My data doesn't show that.

Thoennes and Tjaden (1991)1 empirical data from 12 domestic relations courts throughout the United States:

• Only 2% of 9000 custody cases in 12 jurisdictions contained CSA allegations
• CSA allegations were found equally credible when alleged by mothers or fathers, and whether in custody litigation or not

Who is most likely to fabricate abuse?
Trocme and Bala (2005)3 (Large Canadian national study of multiple jurisdictions of 7672 child maltreatment investigations reported to child welfare authorities):

• Non primary caregivers/noncustodial parents (mostly fathers) were the most likely to fabricate child maltreatment claims (including neglect) (43%)
• Custodial mothers and children were the least likely to fabricate false claims of child abuse or neglect (14% mothers; 2% children

 

[fridaybaker]

How far in advance did the brothers plan the murders? Was Lyle already a psychopath at 8 years old when he disclosed abuse to their cousin Diane?
Many children are not believed when they disclose CSA (childhood sexual abuse). IMO, I think it's the brain's defense mechanism -- deny the idea your beloved family member is capable of such heinous crimes.

"Results revealed that the vast majority of child victims contacting the hotline following a single disclosure event described receiving a negative reaction. Children frequently described being disbelieved or dismissed, typically, by a non-offending family member. Future work should pursue the development of targeted public education campaigns, and consider the victim-perpetrator relationship when drawing inferences on the experiences of sexual abuse victims."

I don't know if Lyle was a psychopath or not, and I don't know if he was abused or not. I do know, however, just in general, that 8 year-olds are perfectly capable of claiming, falsely, many things, including sexual abuse.
I'm not arguing here to say that this is the case in this situation, merely commenting on the idea in the question implying that Lyle would have needed to be a psychopath at 8 to falsely claim abuse.

 

[fridaybaker]

Do you have a source for how often it's used in divorce cases to falsely get custody? My data doesn't show that.

Thoennes and Tjaden (1991)1 empirical data from 12 domestic relations courts throughout the United States:

• Only 2% of 9000 custody cases in 12 jurisdictions contained CSA allegations
• CSA allegations were found equally credible when alleged by mothers or fathers, and whether in custody litigation or not

Who is most likely to fabricate abuse?
Trocme and Bala (2005)3 (Large Canadian national study of multiple jurisdictions of 7672 child maltreatment investigations reported to child welfare authorities):

• Non primary caregivers/noncustodial parents (mostly fathers) were the most likely to fabricate child maltreatment claims (including neglect) (43%)
• Custodial mothers and children were the least likely to fabricate false claims of child abuse or neglect (14% mothers; 2% children

But those are the cases that were "decided" to have been fabricated. It's my contention that quite a few cases are fabricated, that aren't reflected in the numbers here.

 

[fridaybaker]

You'd be surprised how often that happens. Teachers and coaches also suspected that something was wrong. The few coaches who tried to intervene were fired. The family members were intimidated by the parents and didn't think it was their place to interfere. It was also the 1970s and 1980s. The cousins who witnessed the abuse and/or whom the brothers confided to about the SA were children themselves, and were mistreated by the parents as well. Grown adults were afraid of Jose and Kitty Menendez and Jose's wealth and power only made things worse.

Anyone can be a victim of sexual assault. Age, gender, size, physical strength doesn't matter. It's not just about physical power or coercion; it can be emotional and psychological as well. Erik had grown up under his father's power and dominance, and trauma changes the way the brain develops, and grown men feared his father.

MOO

I agree with the concept that you describe, that victimization isn't just about physical power, etc. I do, though, disagree that it describes the situation of either brother. I can certainly believe that "grown men feared his father", in a certain sense, in that people with certain personalities, status/career positions, etc. can be incredibly influential and adversely affect one's career and other areas of life. I've known many like that, but I believe that those can be two seperate things. I just don't believe that either brother feared their father, or was very meek. I tend to think they were very, very manipulative, though.

 

[ForensicPatterns]

yep that describes the brothers pretty well

They aren’t. His dad is definitely a pedophile, which a lot are psychopathic individuals.

 

[LadyL]

They aren’t. His dad is definitely a pedophile, which a lot are psychopathic individuals.

do you have a link that shows a lot of pedophiles are psychopaths? I've never read that before but it's an interesting point

How far in advance did the brothers plan the murders? Was Lyle already a psychopath at 8 years old when he disclosed abuse to their cousin Diane?
Many children are not believed when they disclose CSA (childhood sexual abuse). IMO, I think it's the brain's defense mechanism -- deny the idea your beloved family member is capable of such heinous crimes.

"Results revealed that the vast majority of child victims contacting the hotline following a single disclosure event described receiving a negative reaction. Children frequently described being disbelieved or dismissed, typically, by a non-offending family member. Future work should pursue the development of targeted public education campaigns, and consider the victim-perpetrator relationship when drawing inferences on the experiences of sexual abuse victims."

in my opinion many psychopaths are born
in this case, those who believe they were abused should also believe that it's possible they were groomed into being psychopaths because we know that happens as well
or both? - who knows, we'll never get the truth out of them IMO
and I'm well aware that many victims are not believed, being one myself

 

[LinasK]

do you have a link that shows a lot of pedophiles are psychopaths? I've never read that before but it's an interesting point



in my opinion many psychopaths are born
in this case, those who believe they were abused should also believe that it's possible they were groomed into being psychopaths because we know that happens as well
or both? - who knows, we'll never get the truth out of them IMO
and I'm well aware that many victims are not believed, being one myself

Look up the definitions of psychopath vs. sociopath. One is born that way, the other becomes that way because of their environment. Nature Vs. Nurture argument.

 

[fridaybaker]

Look up the definitions of psychopath vs. sociopath. One is born that way, the other becomes that way because of their environment. Nature Vs. Nurture argument.

I just looked them both up and I see both views for both diagnoses. Some say psychopaths are born that way, some say they develop into psychopaths, and some say a combination. Ditto sociopaths. I’d link, but there are so many opinions out there, I think it’s moot.

 

[LadyL]

I just looked them both up and I see both views for both diagnoses. Some say psychopaths are born that way, some say they develop into psychopaths, and some say a combination. Ditto sociopaths. I’d link, but there are so many opinions out there, I think it’s moot.

yes that's what I have seen

 

[otto]

Throughout this discussion, I have read that sexual abuse of children: male and female, was hidden, denied and disbelieved in the 1990s. I disagree.

The premise that sexual abuse of boys was not recognized, acknowledged, understood, or addressed in 1989 is false. Therefore, all pursuant claims: that the only response for adults males to address sexual abuse in 1989 was murder, have no foundation.

That is, claims that Lyle and Erik Menendez had no hope of justice except to shoot their parents 15 times are false.

6 The Child Abuse Revolution, 1976-1986

6 The Child Abuse Revolution, 1976-1986 was published in Moral Panic on page 118.

www.degruyter.com

 

[fridaybaker]

Throughout this discussion, I have read that sexual abuse of children: male and female, was hidden, denied and disbelieved in the 1990s. I disagree.

The premise that sexual abuse of boys was not recognized, acknowledged, understood, or addressed in 1989 is false. Therefore, all pursuant claims: that the only response for adults males to address sexual abuse in 1989 was murder, have no foundation.

That is, claims that Lyle and Erik Menendez had no hope of justice except to shoot their parents 15 times are false.
View attachment 541495

View attachment 541493

6 The Child Abuse Revolution, 1976-1986

6 The Child Abuse Revolution, 1976-1986 was published in Moral Panic on page 118.

www.degruyter.com

Thanks for this, Otto. I can add that I lived through the 90's, and many victims of sexual abuse, parental and otherwise, came forward during this time. Due to the nature of sexual abuse, certainly there were victims who didn't report it, just like there are today, but I find it incorrect that the 90's were a period of sweeping it under the rug, disbelief of victims, etc. In fact, I'd say it was the opposite. There was quite a bit of support for victims during the 90's. MOO.

 

[Dotta]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1851622108201165003