CA - David Hwang & Sheila Sikat, sex abuse, child 🤬🤬🤬🤬, Rancho Santa Margarita, 2001

[Truly]

But for some of us, forgiveness is not a prerequisite to peace. Just because I don't forgive the molester, doesn't mean I am burdened with anger.
The molester would have no bearing on my personal peace at all. that is under my control. For my child, my peace would come from letting the molester have no power over my happiness.

Absolutely, forgiveness is not a prerequisite to peace. However, once one experiences an absolutely unbearable amount of pain, one may reach the final realization that the way back to a sense of personal peace is through letting go of all the anger in one's heart.

Again, forgiveness is not something which is done for the offender; it has nothing to do with them. It is something which is done to restore one's own sense of peace and happiness.

 

[White Rain]

I am wondering if the she chooses to forgive her sister hoping to ALWAYS shield her daughter from the truth, since she does not seem to remember. I am not saying it's a smart thing to do, but perhaps she has thought about explaining the rift to her curious child?

JMO

Possibly, but as I said earlier, this poor child could remember at ANY time...THEN how will her mom explain her (the mom's) actions to her.
Shoot, as a mom of two girls I'd MUCH rather explain a rift than to explain to my (all of a sudden remembering childhood sex abuse person due to my aunt) kinda scenario.
I am a childhood sex abuse survivor...but yet I can ONLY remember ONE time...it frightens me so much that there were other times which I CAN'T remember!

 

[philamena]

I don;t care if this was her sister .. IMO that makes the betrayal even worse.
What a lousy mother to forgive and defend the evil person who did this to her child!

BRAVO:clap: :clap: :clap:
and ditto

 

[JBean]

Absolutely, forgiveness is not a prerequisite to peace. However, once one experiences an absolutely unbearable amount of pain, one may reach the final realization that the way back to a sense of personal peace is through letting go of all the anger in one's heart.

Again, forgiveness is not something which is done for the offender; it has nothing to do with them. It is something which is done to restore one's own sense of peace and happiness.

I understand what you need to do. but for me, I can let go of the anger in my heart without forgiving the perp. I can have peace without forgiveness. So if the forgiveness is to help me be at peace, it is unecessary. I get my peace from letting go of the anger, but that does not necessarily include forgiveness with it in any way, shape, or form.

ETA: I am talking about not forgiving people when it comes to evil things like murder, molestation etc. BIG things. Just don't want to make it sound like I am not a forgiving person..because of course I am for the right things in the right circumstance.

 

[White Rain]

I understand what you need to do. but for me, I can let go of the anger in my heart without forgiving the perp. I can have peace without forgiveness. So if the forgiveness is to help me be at peace, it is unecessary. I get my peace from letting go of the anger, but that does not include forgiveness with it in any way, shape, or form.

Hey Jbean can you PLZ teach me your way of forgiveness...honestly I am asking you, not rudely. I have alot of hatred/anger/bitterness in my heart that I know I need to let go of...trouble is, I don't know how.

 

[JBean]

:blowkiss:

Hey Jbean can you PLZ teach me your way of forgiveness...honestly I am asking you, not rudely. I have alot of hatred/anger/bitterness in my heart that I know I need to let go of...trouble is, I don't know how.

It's all about not giving that hatred or whatever the power to control your heart. You give that evil all the power or not. It applies to simple matters all the way through true evil IMO.
I don't typically forgive people that are evil WhiteRain. Perhaps if I were convinced that they were truly repentent, full of remorse and depending on how severe their actions were, how long have they been doing good? Those factors would weigh into whether I would forgive someone or not.
As I said before, forgiveness is something very special that I give to very special people.

I am sorry that you are burdened by bitterness in your heart. That must keep you from truly enjoying life.
Like quitting drinking, or quitting drugs or anything else that is really , really hard, I think one day you have to wake up and decide today is the day. No more power over me. I know you can do that because you have told us before of your accomplishments.
It is the same White rain. It is not easy and it doesn't happen over night. but it does happen when you choose it to be.:blowkiss:

 

[White Rain]

:blowkiss: It's all about not giving that hatred or whatever the power to control your heart. You give that evil all the power or not. It applies to simple matters all the way through true evil IMO.
I don't typically forgive people that are evil WhiteRain. Perhaps if I were convinced that they were truly repentent, full of remorse and depending on how severe their actions were, how long have they been doing good? Those factors would weigh into whether I would forgive someone or not.
As I said before, forgiveness is something very special that I give to very special people.

I am sorry that you are burdened by bitterness in your heart. That must keep you from truly enjoying life.
Like quitting drinking, or quitting drugs or anything else that is really , really hard, I think one day you have to wake up and decide today is the day. No more power over me. I know you can do that because you have told us before of your accomplishments.
It is the same White rain. It is not easy and it doesn't happen over night. but it does happen when you choose it to be.:blowkiss:

Oh yeah you are so right about bitterness of the heart...it eats me alive sometimes...NOT a nice way to live but yet I can't figure out how to forgive and quit living in the past!
Funny you should mention it, but I have ( 2 1/2 yrs ago) quit drugs (meth) and am currently trying to beat alcohol....
But yet each day hubby and I wake up and say "ok, this is THE last day we'll drink....no more..."
But each night tells a different story. I know I can beat liquor...after all I beat meth...but what I can't seem to beat is my ugly past...sex abuse by a cousin...mental and physical abuse by my dad...shoot that isn't even the past, he STILL does it to this day...
But anyway, didn't mean to turn this into a thread about my problems...thanks for your response Jbean!

 

[JBean]

Oh yeah you are so right about bitterness of the heart...it eats me alive sometimes...NOT a nice way to live but yet I can't figure out how to forgive and quit living in the past!
Funny you should mention it, but I have ( 2 1/2 yrs ago) quit drugs (meth) and am currently trying to beat alcohol....
But yet each day hubby and I wake up and say "ok, this is THE last day we'll drink....no more..."
But each night tells a different story. I know I can beat liquor...after all I beat meth...but what I can't seem to beat is my ugly past...sex abuse by a cousin...mental and physical abuse by my dad...shoot that isn't even the past, he STILL does it to this day...
But anyway, didn't mean to turn this into a thread about my problems...thanks for your response Jbean!

I know you have licked those things which is why I mentioned them. You do have the strength to do things that are really hard. As a matter of fact White rain, confidence comes when we conquer something difficult. The more confidence we have, the more power we have. the power we have the less likely others will be able to manipulate us, guilt us, burden our hearts or abuse us in any way. It is up to us. Take whatever strength you had to quit meth and quit your dad and quit the bitterness you let him leave in your heart.

 

[White Rain]

I know you have licked those things which is why I mentioned them. You do have the strength to do things that are really hard. As a matter of fact White rain, confidence comes when we conquer something difficult. The more confidence we have, the more power we have. the power we have the less likely others will be able to manipulate us, guilt us, burden our hearts or abuse us in any way. It is up to us. Take whatever strength you had to quit meth and quit your dad and quit the bitterness you let him leave in your heart.

Thanks JBean...your last sentence was quite telling...I am gonna try my hardest to carry that with me!
Thank you, once again! People like you give me hope!

 

[Truly]

I think that what is needed is to let go of the anger. It is a most difficult thing to do, but definitely worthwhile. Maybe forgiveness is not the right word, Forgiveness sounds like a gift one might give. It is really not about forgiving the perp. Really.

Maybe it is a gift to give to yourself; to be determined that you deserve to be free of all of the hate and anger and bitterness. And, like southcithmom mentioned, you have to really, really mean it. It is a gift for yourself, not anyone else.

I don't know about the family which this thread is about. I'm probably way off topic, but southcitymom's reminder struck a chord with me. It takes a lot of courage to make up your mind to really let it go. It does not mean that the offender doesn't get punished. It means that you can wake up in the morning smiling instead of seething. It means that the offender has no power to ever destroy one more minute of your life.

I agree with JBean's posts. I think we are actually saying the exact same thing. Forget the word forgiveness if you think it means that you have to give anything to the offender. You don't.

 

[White Rain]

I think that what is needed is to let go of the anger. It is a most difficult thing to do, but definitely worthwhile. Maybe forgiveness is not the right word, Forgiveness sounds like a gift one might give. It is really not about forgiving the perp. Really.

Maybe it is a gift to give to yourself; to be determined that you deserve to be free of all of the hate and anger and bitterness. And, like southcithmom mentioned, you have to really, really mean it. It is a gift for yourself, not anyone else.

I don't know about the family which this thread is about. I'm probably way off topic, but southcitymom's reminder struck a chord with me. It takes a lot of courage to make up your mind to really let it go. It does not mean that the offender doesn't get punished. It means that you can wake up in the morning smiling instead of seething. It means that the offender has no power to ever destroy one more minute of your life.

I agree with JBean's posts. I think we are actually saying the exact same thing. Forget the word forgiveness if you think it means that you have to give anything to the offender. You don't.

Nice post, Truly.

 

[mysteriew]

NO they are not..that is what makes this so incredible.
The jurors were so moved and so affected by the tapes they viewed, they wanted to speak out in the sentencing.
One male juror cried and said when he saw that little girl scream for help and *hold herself* and fall off the bed he couldn;t take it.
They hated what they saw so much they wanted to speak out. I have never even heard of that happening before.

I've never heard of it either. But I am glad they did let them. And I hope that sets a precedent in other states. Think how much that would help in those cases where the alleged mommy testifies for the alleged daddy, hubby or boyfriend. Or the murder cases where no one is around to stand up for the vicim.

I don't believe any juror should be compelled to testify in a witness impact, but I do believe it is proper to allow them too. Police officers, prosecutors and judges as well as the jurors see all the evidence that is not shown to the public. And many of the more horrendous crimes are bound to have a lasting impact on a anyone. But your average juror is chosen because they don't have experience with that type of crime. Not having the experience, they also don't have the coping skills.

 

[JBean]

I think that what is needed is to let go of the anger. It is a most difficult thing to do, but definitely worthwhile. Maybe forgiveness is not the right word, Forgiveness sounds like a gift one might give. It is really not about forgiving the perp. Really.

Maybe it is a gift to give to yourself; to be determined that you deserve to be free of all of the hate and anger and bitterness. And, like southcithmom mentioned, you have to really, really mean it. It is a gift for yourself, not anyone else.

I don't know about the family which this thread is about. I'm probably way off topic, but southcitymom's reminder struck a chord with me. It takes a lot of courage to make up your mind to really let it go. It does not mean that the offender doesn't get punished. It means that you can wake up in the morning smiling instead of seething. It means that the offender has no power to ever destroy one more minute of your life.

I agree with JBean's posts. I think we are actually saying the exact same thing. Forget the word forgiveness if you think it means that you have to give anything to the offender. You don't.

I have no argument with anything that you have said and think you put it quite nicely.
I will always let go of the anger Truly, because I won't let anyone have that kind of a powerful hold over me. I am not afraid to let it go and it is in my nature to do so. I think you are right in that we are on the same track.
But letting go of the anger for me, doesn't mean I have to love, forgive or embrace the other person. they are just *nothing* to me. I do that for me

 

[southcitymom]

:blowkiss: It's all about not giving that hatred or whatever the power to control your heart. You give that evil all the power or not. It applies to simple matters all the way through true evil IMO.
I don't typically forgive people that are evil WhiteRain. Perhaps if I were convinced that they were truly repentent, full of remorse and depending on how severe their actions were, how long have they been doing good? Those factors would weigh into whether I would forgive someone or not.
As I said before, forgiveness is something very special that I give to very special people.

I am sorry that you are burdened by bitterness in your heart. That must keep you from truly enjoying life.
Like quitting drinking, or quitting drugs or anything else that is really , really hard, I think one day you have to wake up and decide today is the day. No more power over me. I know you can do that because you have told us before of your accomplishments.
It is the same White rain. It is not easy and it doesn't happen over night. but it does happen when you choose it to be.:blowkiss:

Terrific post, JBean!!!!:clap: :clap:

 

[southcitymom]

I think that what is needed is to let go of the anger. It is a most difficult thing to do, but definitely worthwhile. Maybe forgiveness is not the right word, Forgiveness sounds like a gift one might give. It is really not about forgiving the perp. Really.

Maybe it is a gift to give to yourself; to be determined that you deserve to be free of all of the hate and anger and bitterness. And, like southcithmom mentioned, you have to really, really mean it. It is a gift for yourself, not anyone else.

I don't know about the family which this thread is about. I'm probably way off topic, but southcitymom's reminder struck a chord with me. It takes a lot of courage to make up your mind to really let it go. It does not mean that the offender doesn't get punished. It means that you can wake up in the morning smiling instead of seething. It means that the offender has no power to ever destroy one more minute of your life.

I agree with JBean's posts. I think we are actually saying the exact same thing. Forget the word forgiveness if you think it means that you have to give anything to the offender. You don't.

That's a great point as well - and one I agree with 100%. I am also in agreement with Bean's experience that I can let go of anger controlling my heart without feeling like I have forgiven someone I think has harmed me (though I will add as an aside that some people I know say that if you have let go of the anger in your heart, you have indeed forgiven, whether you know it or not - I think it just depends on your conscious experience and understanding of forgiveness)

 

[southcitymom]

I have no argument with anything that you have said and think you put it quite nicely.
I will always let go of the anger Truly, because I won't let anyone have that kind of a powerful hold over me. I am not afraid to let it go and it is in my nature to do so. I think you are right in that we are on the same track.
But letting go of the anger for me, doesn't mean I have to love, forgive or embrace the other person. they are just *nothing* to me. I do that for me

I like to let go of anger as soon as possible too, BUT....I will admit that sometimes it feels good to hold onto it for a while - I can really feel like I'm getting an ego benefit from clinging to the self-righteous indignation of my pain!

That said - I did want to throw in that while letting go of anger is a behavior that can be learned (and needs to be learned for a more peaceful life), some people are born with dispositions that make it easier to do this.

For example, when I get angry - I rant and rave and roar like a wounded lion and my fury is LARGE, but it never lasts long - it seems to fall away once I have allowed myself to express it in grand, dramatic style.

And then I'm left looking around wondering why everyone else is cowering when I'm not even the smallest bit upset anymore!!

One of my sisters, on the other hand, is more sullen and sulky in her pain and has to let it steep and brew and simmer for a pretty long while before she can begin to let it go.

 

[believe09]

The child's mother knows in her heart that her only chance at "forgiveness' right now is to avoid the videotapes and believe in the sister she has known in the past. It does not mean that she will not forgive her sister in the future if she views the horrors done to her child, but it will be a long heartbreaking angry process. i can understand wanting to avoid that kind of pain.

What concerns me is the mixed message it might present to the victim-once these horrible memories start washing over her, is her mother going to invalidate those memories with statements that the child's aunt was a victim as well? The child will by all accounts know differently...this is a situation that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. Mom needs to know the entire story, to deal with the horrible guilt she is also feeling, and to be able to support her child through whatever comes of this experience. More denial will not do any one any good here. And in my opinion, does not reach the threshold of true forgiveness, with all respect SCM.

 

[Truly]

:blowkiss: It's all about not giving that hatred or whatever the power to control your heart. You give that evil all the power or not. It applies to simple matters all the way through true evil IMO.
I don't typically forgive people that are evil WhiteRain. Perhaps if I were convinced that they were truly repentent, full of remorse and depending on how severe their actions were, how long have they been doing good? Those factors would weigh into whether I would forgive someone or not.
As I said before, forgiveness is something very special that I give to very special people.

I am sorry that you are burdened by bitterness in your heart. That must keep you from truly enjoying life.
Like quitting drinking, or quitting drugs or anything else that is really , really hard, I think one day you have to wake up and decide today is the day. No more power over me. I know you can do that because you have told us before of your accomplishments.
It is the same White rain. It is not easy and it doesn't happen over night. but it does happen when you choose it to be.:blowkiss:

For me, the moment of realization came when it hit me that if I continued to wait for the offender to be truly repentant, full of remorse, or even the least bit sorry, then I might continue to harbor animosity forever. And that would cause suffering for me.

My peace cannot be conditional on the behavior of the person who has done me harm. As long as I repeat the offense in my mind, I am in fact giving the offender the power to continue to affect my daily happiness. If I wait for the offender to do something to deserve my forgiveness, I could spend the rest of my life in anguish.

As soon as I really let it go, my pain and suffering are diminished. For me, it is a matter of choosing, 'what will I allow into my life today?' and then consciously choosing to do that which is kind and loving, and choosing not to go down the path which leads to suffering.

:blowkiss:


The child's mother may well have resolved that her daughter deserves to have as much of the love and peace and the innocence of childhood which she can possibly restore to her. And that harboring anger and bitterness for her sister would just cause more suffering for herself and for the child.

 

[JBean]

For me, the moment of realization came when it hit me that if I continued to wait for the offender to be truly repentant, full of remorse, or even the least bit sorry, then I might continue to harbor animosity forever. And that would cause suffering for me.

My peace cannot be conditional on the behavior of the person who has done me harm. As long as I repeat the offense in my mind, I am in fact giving the offender the power to continue to affect my daily happiness. If I wait for the offender to do something to deserve my forgiveness, I could spend the rest of my life in anguish.

As soon as I really let it go, my pain and suffering are diminished. For me, it is a matter of choosing, 'what will I allow into my life today?' and then consciously choosing to do that which is kind and loving, and choosing not to go down the path which leads to suffering.

:blowkiss:


The child's mother may well have resolved that her daughter deserves to have as much of the love and peace and the innocence of childhood which she can possibly restore to her. And that harboring anger and bitterness for her sister would just cause more suffering for herself and for the child.

What I meant was, if there was someone that was truly asking for my forgiveness, I would consider it based on the criteria I mentioned. But in the scheme of things I do not hang onto bitterness or anger but I also do not necessarily forgive. They are not mutually exclusive. I think you were right when you said that forgiveness might be the wrong word. I only mention it again because you reference it in your first paragraph.
If I were the mother of this child and my sister were the perp. I would most likely never forgive her, but I would not hold on to the anger or let it dictate my behavior .
If she were my sister, I would rip up her sister card and she would become nothing to me. She would have no place in my heart or my life or my home. end of story. It is from that I would get my peace. KNowing I have done the right thing with regard to my child and removing evil sources from our lives would give me great satisfaction and peace.
That's the difference for me. I can release anger , but do not feel the need to replace it with another emotion such as pity or love or anything like that.
I wouldn't continue to let those that have betrayed me or victimized me or wronged me in any way have any power over my life. We sometimes choose to stay victims to these people and at that point we are the ones that are really victimizing ourselves.
Easy? nope. Doable? absolutely.

 

[Salem]

The child's mother knows in her heart that her only chance at "forgiveness' right now is to avoid the videotapes and believe in the sister she has known in the past. It does not mean that she will not forgive her sister in the future if she views the horrors done to her child, but it will be a long heartbreaking angry process. i can understand wanting to avoid that kind of pain.

What concerns me is the mixed message it might present to the victim-once these horrible memories start washing over her, is her mother going to invalidate those memories with statements that the child's aunt was a victim as well? The child will by all accounts know differently...this is a situation that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. Mom needs to know the entire story, to deal with the horrible guilt she is also feeling, and to be able to support her child through whatever comes of this experience. More denial will not do any one any good here. And in my opinion, does not reach the threshold of true forgiveness, with all respect SCM.

And in the long run - this could much more harm to the child. A mother that does not believe you, insists it was "not that bad" and "you are fine" or chooses to defend the perp will cause GREAT emotional damage.

In my opinion, Mom can choose to forgive her sister if she wants, provided she does not do so at the expense of her very vulnerable daughter. And based on what the Judge is telling Mom, I'm thinking that is what may be happening. Can you imagine a Judge telling you, your forgiveness is misplaced?

My two cents,

Salem