CA CA - Elizabeth Short 'Black Dahlia', 22, Los Angeles, 15 Jan 1947

[Ausgirl]

Good point, December.

I really should brush up on some of the finer details. I recall reading somewhere a very interesting and extensive argument that went something like: "How could her stomach still have liquid contents, if it was ruptured?" And : "she would have to be upside-down for the feces to travel back into the stomach from the intestines.." and somebody making a lot of sense, but I cannot recall which side of the argument that was now, lol.

I actually wonder if/how they really did ascertain that the fecal matter in her stomach was all hers. I hate forgetting things. Time to hit the research, lol.

 

[December]

Good point, December.

I really should brush up on some of the finer details. I recall reading somewhere a very interesting and extensive argument that went something like: "How could her stomach still have liquid contents, if it was ruptured?" And : "she would have to be upside-down for the feces to travel back into the stomach from the intestines.." and somebody making a lot of sense, but I cannot recall which side of the argument that was now, lol.

I actually wonder if/how they really did ascertain that the fecal matter in her stomach was all hers. I hate forgetting things. Time to hit the research, lol.

OMG, I did not even think of that possibility. (faints)

 

[Ausgirl]

One thing I noticed in the CS and autopsy pics is that her lower half has the pelvis tilted upward, as if she was sitting prior to being bisected.

That's one thing I've always meant to find out more about..

Just recalling random snippets from last time I discussed this case in depth.



Some excerpts from the official coroner's report (BBM):

There are multiple lacerations to the midforehead, in the right forehead, and at the top of the head in the midline. There are multiple tiny abrasions and lacerations. The trunk is completely severed by an incision, which is almost straight through the abdomen.... There are multiple crisscross lacerations in the suprapubic area, which extend through the skin and soft tissues.

There are lacerations of the intestine and both kidneys. The uterus is small and no pregnancy is apparent. The tubes, ovaries, and cul-de-sac are intact.... Within the vagina and higher up there is lying loose a piece of skin with fat and subcutaneous tissue attached. On this piece of loose skin there are several crisscrossing lacerations. Smears for spermatozoa have been taken.

The anal opening is markedly dilated and the opening measures 1 1/4" in diameter.... There are multiple abrasions.... Smear for spermatozoa has been taken.....

The stomach is filled with greenish brown granular matter, mostly feces and other particles, which could not be identified. All smears for spermatozoa were negative.

It appeared as though many of the lacerations, including the dilation of the anal opening, were done after the woman's death.

___


What the heck are those "criss cross lacerations" all about?

 

[December]

The crisscross lacerations could serve a few purposes... a cutting guide, torture before the main cutting, or finally maybe the killer's hand shook (from excitement or drugs or neurological impairment)? Weird though. I think they are definitelyfinitely important.

 

[Ausgirl]

A cutting guide.. good thought. Especially considering that sections of skin were removed (including one with the tic-tic-toe style crisscross cuts on it) ..

Practise cuts? Maybe.. That Betty was tortured prior to death is without doubt. She was missing for five days... Anyways, for those interested in the autopsy details and who don't want to risk viewing pics (I do not blame you one bit for that..) here's a detailed list of her injuries:

Bound feet and hands with rope or wire ligature
Strangulation to neck leaving ligature marks
Blunt force trauma to face and head
Scalpel lacerations (5 distinct incisions) to her upper lip
Surgically rounded scalpel lacerations to both sides of her mouth
Tic-Tac-Toe scalpel cuttings to the right thigh
Scalpel laceration/incision (2&#8221 near the left nipple
Scalpel lacerations and cutting away of some pubic hair and insertion of it into anus
Cigar or cigarette burns (at least 8) to her back (BBM: this has been disputed, see link below).
Scalpel incision from umbilicus to supra-public area in imitation of a hysterectomy (4 ½&#8221
Scalpel incision and removal of large section of left thigh and insertion of it into vagina.
Surgical removal of right breast (Not believed recovered at autopsy –possibly retained by suspect as “trophy&#8221
Sexual anal-rape using unknown object. (Sodomy)
Surgical bisection of body (Hemicorpectomy) by incision through the intervertebral disks between the 2nd and 3rd lumbar vertebrae.
Washing and scrub down of nude body using coconut fiber brush

Ghastly, I know.. but the details suggest a LOT.

- That she was indeed held captive and tortured (so her killer had a quiet, private place to keep her).
- That the killer may have taken a trophy (very typical of sexual sadists).
- That the killer fancied himself a surgeon (or was one) - maybe a lesser medical job?


from http://www.blackdahliaavenger.com/faq/FAQ76.pdf

And some interesting "myths" about the murder:

http://www.lmharnisch.com/myths.html


ETA: And those facial cuts happened while she was alive. Jeez. The more I read/remember about this case, the more I get a feeling that this killer was a/ obsessed with Betty and b/ could not handle rejection.

It was often said Betty was a 'tease' - not a prostitute, not the town bike, but more akin to the 'sugar babies' who these days so proudly advertise themselves on the internet to rich men as 'companions'. Some don't actually sleep with the men they meet.. or if they do, keep it very discreet. For many of the men, it's all about the ego boost of having a pretty girl hanging around at social functions.

Anyway. Betty was a 'man-izer' but not so much a . I can see some closet psycho she'd dated and ditched becoming quite obsessive and quite upset at continual refusals to date him again, while she's off with a string of others.. maybe he watches her do so.. until he snaps, abducts her, spends five days "wooing" her (while she's tied up in a basement or somewhere equally nasty) becoming more and more sick in the head when she fails to adequately fulfil his fantasy. Maybe she says something that triggers his deepest sense of inadequacy. Maybe she just won't smile for him.

On the last day, he loses it, slashes her up and kills her. Now he has all the power... he can do what he wants to her body, and she won't complain. He can punish her properly for not loving him, and she cannot object.

Then he cleans her up and drains her blood in the bath tub, takes her (in pieces, as she's stiffened in an odd position in the bath) in his car to a place he knows was familiar to her. People around here knew her - that'll show 'em what a she really was. He takes a few bits away for keepsakes - after all, he did love her, before he hated her... and she was his, in the end. But the whole world ought to know what a she was, and who the boss really is. Now they will.

(my head gets full of these narratives, I'm sure I'll have a different one tomorrow. This one seems a good fit, though, for the moment)

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Thank you so much for all
That info! Really has helped me figure a lot out!

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

If Hodel is responsible for Betty's murder, and I don't discount at all that possibility right now, then I think she would have been his, alone. This murder was somebody's sick fantasy come true...

If the object was simply to hide a pregnancy, why not burn her, bury her in concrete, throw her ripped up body to the sharks? Less risk, way less risk of having the secret discovered... and I can't see any mob men saying "Okay, let's park here for half an hour while this guy takes a dump in the body and has his way with it..."

So I'm saying Hodel-as-killer is a feasible theory, given that he was a bit of a . A hit? Not so much. This was, IMO, highly personal.

And as for rumours - I am betting that if the corpse was not so violated, Betty would not be the pregnant conspiracy victim/a lesbian/a hooker/ anything else. Like the string of other woman murdered in the area during that period, she'd be the victim of a psycho, the end, story fades...

Ok you've got me convinced now that it was just a sick twisted murderers fantasy!

Haha and I love how you referred to Hodel as a "bit" of a . He doesn't even deserve to be a whole ! Lol

I'm a hard one to switch good job!

 

[December]

A coconut fiber brush? I didn't even know such a thing existed, ever. Was this a common item? If not, who would have it and why?

Another type of person it could be who'd be angry at E.S. would be someone who loved one of the men she dated. I mean a guy. So, he ruined her and her feminity. I don't really think this is the case, but I think that'd be a type of person with who might be really mad at her without her realizing it.

ETA:

A coconut fiber brush is a scrub brush. Very rough. Not for scrubbing people. For scrubbing things like cast iron pots!

 

[Ausgirl]

Steve Hodel has recently announced a new book claiming new evidence against his father. Report, from 22 Aug:

http://ktla.com/2013/08/22/author-claims-new-evidence-in-black-dahlia-murder/#axzz2dQmbsVcd

The new evidence is probably linked to a cadaver dog finding a scent in George Hodel's basement. Report, from Feb this year:

When the opportunity arose for Hodel to return to his childhood home, he jumped at the chance after producers of the SyFy Channel’s Ghost Hunters program arranged it with the current owners.

Last November Hodel, together with retired police Sgt. Paul Dostie of Mammoth Lakes and Buster, a Labrador retriever trained to detect the unique smell of human composition, visited the property.

Once let loose, Buster quickly established four locations in the basement where he could pick up a faint trace of human remains.

The basement had never been finished and since the floor was still dirt, soil samples were taken.
Hodel is awaiting the results of those samples, which might once and for all confirm who killed the Black Dahlia.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ent-Hollywood-home-suspect.html#ixzz2dQm45zlB

 

[Ausgirl]

Incidentally, John Sowden House, designed by Frank Lloyd Wright and the home of George Hodel and family in 1947, went on the market in March this year - for 4.89 million. Here's a pic from the linked article:

http://realestate.aol.com/blog/2013/03/04/john-sowden-house-black-dahlia-murder-home-2/

That's some fancy digs..

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Steve Hodel has recently announced a new book claiming new evidence against his father. Report, from 22 Aug:

http://ktla.com/2013/08/22/author-claims-new-evidence-in-black-dahlia-murder/#axzz2dQmbsVcd

The new evidence is probably linked to a cadaver dog finding a scent in George Hodel's basement. Report, from Feb this year:

When the opportunity arose for Hodel to return to his childhood home, he jumped at the chance after producers of the SyFy Channel’s Ghost Hunters program arranged it with the current owners.

Last November Hodel, together with retired police Sgt. Paul Dostie of Mammoth Lakes and Buster, a Labrador retriever trained to detect the unique smell of human composition, visited the property.

Once let loose, Buster quickly established four locations in the basement where he could pick up a faint trace of human remains.

The basement had never been finished and since the floor was still dirt, soil samples were taken.
Hodel is awaiting the results of those samples, which might once and for all confirm who killed the Black Dahlia.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ent-Hollywood-home-suspect.html#ixzz2dQm45zlB

I think this happened (the canine search) around the same time Elisa Lam was missing Jan. 31 to Feb. 19 and then was found in the water cistern of the Cecil Hotel in downtown LA. Many believe Elisa's death was an homage to the black Dahlia.

Ok back to the topic at hand! Just had to let you guys know of that local rumor here in LA.

 

[Ausgirl]

Speaking of 'homages' --- as Elizabeth Short's murder was thought to be linked to the Lipstick murders of Chicago two years prior, for which William Heirens was incarcerated. His guilt for those crimes has been questioned, however, and not without reasonable grounds for doubt. It's very possible that Heirens, still a teenager at the time, was forced into a confession he would later recant.

William Heirens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A false confession doesn't seem so improbable, when you look at how other suspects were treated:

"Police held Verburgh for 48 hours of questionings and beatings that severely injured him, including a separated shoulder.[8] Throughout, Verburgh denied involvement in the murder.[12] Verburgh's Janitor Union lawyer got Verburgh released on a writ of habeas corpus. Verburgh said of the experience:

"Oh, they hanged me up, they blindfolded me ... I can’t put up my arms, they are sore. They had handcuffs on me for hours and hours. They threw me in the cell and blindfolded me. They handcuffed my hands behind my back and pulled me up on bars until my toes touched the floor. I no eat, I go to the hospital. Oh, I am so sick. Any more and I would have confessed to anything."[15]

Verburgh spent 10 days in the hospital."

Heirens underwent what can only be described as horrific torture at the hands of police, unbelievable stuff that just would never (one would hope) happen today.

So I think maybe there's a reasonable chance he didn't do these killings.

And, back to my original point re 'homage' - in a former post, I likened Betty's killer to Jack the Ripper, and her death to Mary Kelly's. Profilers have stated that it's likely the Dahlia killer had killed before.. so what if he was also the Lipstick killer, and --maybe-- modelling himself on JtR?

Or was just a very similar sort of criminal, with a steady buildup of crimes to the 'dramatic' conclusion, ie, Elizabeth Short, along with following the news, and the taunting letters and packages...

From Wiki:

Captain Donahoe of the Los Angeles police also stated publicly that he believed the Black Dahlia and Lipstick murders were "likely connected".[15] Among the evidence cited is the fact that Elizabeth Short's body was found on Norton Avenue three blocks west of Degnan Boulevard, Degnan being the last name of the girl from Chicago, and there were striking similarities between the writing of the Degnan ransom note and that of "the Black Dahlia Avenger". For example, both used a combination of capitals and small letters (the Degnan note read in part "BuRN This FoR heR SAfTY"), and both notes contain a similar misshapen letter P and have one word matching exactly.[16]

Black Dahlia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In fact, there were so many unsolved murders of women in LA area during the 40's that a special inquiry was set up to determine why the cases weren't getting solved.

Some of the victims were Jeanne French, Ora Murray, Laura Trelstad, and Georgette Bauerdorf.

 

[December]

I read a weird post somewhere (maybe Daily Mail comments) that the E.S. murder was either fake or a false flag or both. Having never heard that before, I did a little research. I didn't find anything to support the 'fake' contention. But, I did come across a very odd theory.

The theory was that it was a hit, but not what most people think of as a hit. We normally think of such a thing as being done by a professional who doesn't want to get caught or have the murder traced back to the client. So, we think of efficient in that case.

But, this hit wasn't like most hits. The purpose of most hits is someone pays to permaban someone else from life. But, the E.S. murder was to cause trauma in the public. So, it is deliberately as bizarre and disturbing as it could possibly be. It wouldn't utilize the type of person one usually thinks about either. But, someone who was capable of pulling something off that seems like it is an exercise in trying to get caught yet not get caught. Something that took time and absolutely no sense of mercy.

E.S. may, therefore, have only been a pretty girl they were able to procure with limited attachments in the area. Who had an intriguing backstory that was like a lot of other girls who come to L.A. But, the hit was called to create trauma and defile the public, not just E.S.

This isn't my theory, but it is a different way to look at things. Yes, the things done to her seem personal, but they would find someone to do the job who perhaps would make her a proxy for someone he couldn't kill. Someone known to be sick behind whatever facade he presented. But, organized enough to get it done without being caught part way through.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Wow Ausigirl I'm very intrigued by the lipstick murderer connection! TY! I will read up More on this. Seems like a likely scenario/connection! And yes that confession Defo sounded forced.

December, yes an organized group murdering her to fear monger the public also seems likely here. That Chelsea smile they gave her just keeps coming back to me.
The way she was left screams "look at what I did! Now it can happen to YOU!" some people love fear mongering, especially the press/news. It's the only way they keep working and firing up the presses. For them bad news is great news and MONEY.

Thanks guys

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

P.s. the LA Office of the Coroner at the LASD has a gift shop. Can we say Holy inappropriateness ? "But it's LA"

AND one of the techs who had been working on a conservative critic/writer's autopsy (after said critics questionable death) was poisoned and slowly and painfully passed away. Strange huh? They think he might have been poisoned by another tech there.

I have Elisa's autopsy bc with the circumstances of her death being ruled as "accidental" in a murder hotel like the Cecil, my Hinky Meter concerning the coroners office and her COD went off!

I've also been studying Tina Hoang who was left on the beach at my old stomping grounds in Newport beach in front of the old house my parents rented. She was found by tower 71 with 3 candles burning next to her. She was an escort with a tattoo of a black flower and stars on her face. The tower 71 immediately jumped out at me for 2 distinct reasons:
1: 71 is the number of the most kills by a SK in USA history (green river killer)
2: 71 was the number of the squad car that came upon ES body first in the black dahlia case.

Idk. It was just eerie as Tina was left for all to see (on a public park/beach) only a month after Elisa Was found in the very public water cistern for the Cecil.

Idk.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I read a weird post somewhere (maybe Daily Mail comments) that the E.S. murder was either fake or a false flag or both. Having never heard that before, I did a little research. I didn't find anything to support the 'fake' contention. But, I did come across a very odd theory.

The theory was that it was a hit, but not what most people think of as a hit. We normally think of such a thing as being done by a professional who doesn't want to get caught or have the murder traced back to the client. So, we think of efficient in that case.

But, this hit wasn't like most hits. The purpose of most hits is someone pays to permaban someone else from life. But, the E.S. murder was to cause trauma in the public. So, it is deliberately as bizarre and disturbing as it could possibly be. It wouldn't utilize the type of person one usually thinks about either. But, someone who was capable of pulling something off that seems like it is an exercise in trying to get caught yet not get caught. Something that took time and absolutely no sense of mercy.

E.S. may, therefore, have only been a pretty girl they were able to procure with limited attachments in the area. Who had an intriguing backstory that was like a lot of other girls who come to L.A. But, the hit was called to create trauma and defile the public, not just E.S.

This isn't my theory, but it is a different way to look at things. Yes, the things done to her seem personal, but they would find someone to do the job who perhaps would make her a proxy for someone he couldn't kill. Someone known to be sick behind whatever facade he presented. But, organized enough to get it done without being caught part way through.

I remember reading how ES had a cousin or nephew that spoke of how when she would visit him, she always arrived with her own driver. I've been thinking of whether or not she worked for the mob scene in some capacity. She was dressed in very expensive clothing and always was meticulously quaffed her relative remembered.

This account has always made me think of the mafia fellows who often had their own personal concierge.

ES might have upset Bugsy or someone in his group by trying to work for another crime family, so perhaps her death was to intimidate other girls and keep them from switching to another family/betraying Bugsy's crew? Maybe Bugsy enlisted Hodel, a fellow client of his defense lawyer, to help with the hit? The more gruesome, the less likely ppl would be to double cross his family/syndicate?

Bugsy wanted her to become a legend and forever reminder of what happens to girls that snitch or double cross? Perhaps she was even an undercover cop trying to snuff out Bugsy's game?

At any rate, it reeks of intimidation.

 

[Montjoy]

AND one of the techs who had been working on a conservative critic/writer's autopsy (after said critics questionable death) was poisoned and slowly and painfully passed away.

Fortunately, that has been debunked (over a year ago) as a conspiracy theory -- the tech in question never had anything to do with Breitbart's autopsy.

See, for instance -
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/01/michael-cormier-dead-breitbart-arsenic_n_1468304.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...inking-breitbart-l-a-coroner-tech-deaths.html

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Thank you mont joy. That case was scaring me there for a bit :scared: is that second link MSM btw? Thedailybeast? Huffpost?

Then again, with all due respect Mont Joy, the office of the coroner is in the same division as the LASD here. It ls pretty interesting. So I will believe the conspiracy is completely debunked when the FBI goes in and states it is false.

LASD aren't necessarily on my list of most trustworthy law enforcement services.

 

[bessie]

Thank you mont joy. That case was scaring me there for a bit :scared: is that second link MSM btw? Thedailybeast? Huffpost?

Then again, with all due respect Mont Joy, the office of the coroner is in the same division as the LASD here. It ls pretty interesting. So I will believe the conspiracy is completely debunked when the FBI goes in and states it is false.

LASD aren't necessarily on my list of most trustworthy law enforcement services.

The Daily Beast might not be traditional MSM, but it has cred.

The Daily Beast became the online home of Newsweek magazine, which has served as the world’s preeminent conversation starter since its founding in 1933. Tina Brown, former editor of Vanity Fair, The New Yorker and Talk, serves as editor-in-chief of both publications.

Further, a direct quote carries the same weight regardless of where it appears.

“It had nothing to do with that,” LAPD homicide supervisor Det. Rich Wheeler said. “He had nothing to do with the autopsy or anything to do with the case ... That story is based on rumor and innuendo.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...inking-breitbart-l-a-coroner-tech-deaths.html

 

[Sharyne]

One thing I noticed in the CS and autopsy pics is that her lower half has the pelvis tilted upward, as if she was sitting prior to being bisected.

That's one thing I've always meant to find out more about..

Just recalling random snippets from last time I discussed this case in depth.



Some excerpts from the official coroner's report (BBM):

There are multiple lacerations to the midforehead, in the right forehead, and at the top of the head in the midline. There are multiple tiny abrasions and lacerations. The trunk is completely severed by an incision, which is almost straight through the abdomen.... There are multiple crisscross lacerations in the suprapubic area, which extend through the skin and soft tissues.

There are lacerations of the intestine and both kidneys. The uterus is small and no pregnancy is apparent. The tubes, ovaries, and cul-de-sac are intact.... Within the vagina and higher up there is lying loose a piece of skin with fat and subcutaneous tissue attached. On this piece of loose skin there are several crisscrossing lacerations. Smears for spermatozoa have been taken.

The anal opening is markedly dilated and the opening measures 1 1/4" in diameter.... There are multiple abrasions.... Smear for spermatozoa has been taken.....

The stomach is filled with greenish brown granular matter, mostly feces and other particles, which could not be identified. All smears for spermatozoa were negative.

It appeared as though many of the lacerations, including the dilation of the anal opening, were done after the woman's death.

___


What the heck are those "criss cross lacerations" all about?

From a link up thread could this be what you're asking about? There's a photo of it.

Signature: Hodel says his father idolized painter Man Ray and left a distinctive Man Ray-esque marking on the body of Elizabeth Short

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...THER-Black-Dahlia-murderer.html#ixzz2duamfs3i
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