Found Deceased CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

[Kittenn11]

I think it's these two photos. There are grey clothing remnants, IMO, but it's difficult to tell if it's a shirt or pants. The blurring, as intended, makes it hard to tell exactly what's what.

View attachment 458164 View attachment 458165

Thank you very much for posting these.


Yes it could be a shirt but on the very right hand side it kinda looks like a shoe, and on second glance looks like the boots he's wearing in some of the photos JF posted/sent to to family ( the one by his truck and a Joshua tree in background comes to mind)

 

[Kittenn11]

Thank you now I see it.
Also, his bones look very dark, is this common in areas like these?
And the ground underneath both his head and his body look burned, but may be shadows. eta: or the remains of the rest of his body/ fluids.

IN MOO, I think this would be typical of a newly skeketonized body/ remains as they have not had the time to dry out and be bleached by the sun yet ( from date of death to date found) .. idk though just what I can think of from the little education I've had in this area. 10ofrods could probably be more helpful with this one.. MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

I think it's these two photos. There are grey clothing remnants, IMO, but it's difficult to tell if it's a shirt or pants. The blurring, as intended, makes it hard to tell exactly what's what.

View attachment 458164 View attachment 458165

I don't know about the clothing, could be either, as you say, but that looks like it could be a pelvis in the second photo, to me. So maybe trousers. Pants pocket is where most guys keep their wallet. Depends on the scale, of course, but if the rocks in photo two are roughly the same sort of sizes as photo one, which clearly has the skull, for scale, then I think a pelvis isn't a bad guess just based on general shape behind the blurring.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

Thank you now I see it.
Also, his bones look very dark, is this common in areas like these?
And the ground underneath both his head and his body look burned, but may be shadows. eta: or the remains of the rest of his body/ fluids.

You're probably seeing staining from decomp and remains of soft tissues. It takes time for bones to become completely denuded of any soft tissues. Weather, animals, bugs, and decomposition make pretty short work of it somewhere like the desert, but it isn't so quick that it looks like a medical specimen in a flash. Bones can also show discolouration based on which bits are exposed to sun or water, or are in contact with leaf litter, soil, or dirt. Here, I think it's just because the interval is weeks to months. If they'd been out there through a whole summer or a couple of years, they'd most likely be completely dried out and sunbleached.

MOO

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I don't know about the clothing, could be either, as you say, but that looks like it could be a pelvis in the second photo, to me. So maybe trousers. Pants pocket is where most guys keep their wallet. Depends on the scale, of course, but if the rocks in photo two are roughly the same sort of sizes as photo one, which clearly has the skull, for scale, then I think a pelvis isn't a bad guess just based on general shape behind the blurring.

MOO

I think you may be correct. I'd been thinking it was more of the body, maybe even the whole body, and couldn't for the life of me figure out what was where. But if it is only the pelvis and a few other bones, that might suggest JRF's remains were even more scattered than I'd assumed.

 

[iamshadow21]

I think you may be correct. I'd been thinking it was more of the body, maybe even the whole body, and couldn't for the life of me figure out what was where. But if it is only the pelvis and a few other bones, that might suggest JRF's remains were even more scattered than I'd assumed.

Yeah. I think they've been moved a lot, by water, by animals. I think the pelvis is clear to see, with maybe a long bone or two around and partly under it. If that is trousers, there may still be most of the femur tucked inside it. Don't know what the smaller blur is on the skull pic. Could be jawbone, or I think possibly some vertebrae. Something more compact than a long bone. Don't think it's a scapula, they're pretty angular.

They may never find any more of him than this, even with dogs. All the smaller bones of the feet and hands will be long gone, tumbled away, or even taken by rodents and birds. The lighter large bones like ribs can be carried further by animals and flood water. The pelvis and the skull and the long bones are the heaviest bits.

MOO

 

[mark1969]

Wow, I surely missed a lot in the past several days! I had almost an entire new thread to go though. I am *happy* ( and sad) to hear some answers are starting to come in and have a lot that I'd like to comment on but am extremly tired from reading and researching well into the night oast my bedtime so my articulation may not be the best right now, sorry.

One thought before I go regarding the photo's of JRF remains ( not the skull one but the other of the two blurred out photos) I noticed in the one photo that I feel like i can see what appears to be some material, looking like part of some Grey cargo or outdoor type pant leg and maybe even a tennis shoe at the end of the pants. If you zoom into this particular photo it appears the grey material/ pants are of one side/leg and kinda strung along the bottom of the big Boulder there lengthwise from left to right with a possible part of a shoe on the right side, as i examine from my pov view ( maybe running type shoes?) If I'm correct this may have been where his identification/ wallet was found. I know tgere had been a little speculation earlier aboit how these items could float away with his skeketal remains. As stated, I'm very tired so feel like this may not have been articulated tvery well ( due to a medical condition i don't actuate well on a good day so I assume this is probably worse) but someone else may be able to see what I am talking about. Not sure how much relevance this has now but saw it a while back and wanted to point it out. I have several more things I'd like to comment on or point out but will probably do that later in the next day or days. I'm still very new to these websleuths forums ( however i do and have followed through many avenues on other cases just not here until this case actually) so I am unsure where or how to post that original photo right now but it has been passed around a bit in the past. I'm hoping someone else will look at it and see what im trying to point out. If not then I'll try to figure out a way to do that myself later.
AllMOO

Send me your pics in private please ...soo I can comment with you

 

[iamshadow21]

Send me your pics in private please ...soo I can comment with you

The pictures of the remains are screenshots from this video news report from CBS 8 San Diego.

If you go to about 2:27, you can see the images.

MOO

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I guess I missed the post that mark states he knows for sure she was using her cell phone service providers international plan and that it was working properly on US soil and not by means of wifi, or a sim card( sim is most common for tourists except for rare people like me that travel so much that we keep an international plan so I don't have to purchase a sim everywhere I go like most do and even I did several years ago. As I stated previously there are several ways this can be explained or therorized from but at least imo it points more to the usage of wifi ( which could include a data sim) anyway I'd like to explain more but most of all, I think it would be very helpful if we could verify Jins service provider ( I'm guessing China mobile as they would likely have the best connection to contracted cell towers thru ATT, Sprint or TMobile. ) I completely get that cell service was decent at best out there which often times can lead to one person having more coverage than someone say using an Chinese international cell service provider. Even so these calls can get expensive and not ping off or pull data off same towers so calls can ring and still be heard by the receiving end and vice versa as someone stated earlier. I have experience with that happening. Even in my own area where technically I should get better service at home according to their Tmobiles coverage map but have had better service say, literally in the middle of the Sahara Dessert by camel back for hours to reach a Barron dessert with only a huge sea of sand to be seen for miles to a berber tribe to stay with the family for a few days and where service was great as far as wifi anyway. Take this info fwiw, but I know for sure there are many factors and have experience in this very thing that makes it hard to tell for sure. Having her cell service provider , if she had an international phone plan and if she was accustomed to buying a sim in a countries she visited would help discover this information more clearly. Even down to knowing which version of the Chinese brand hauwei phone she used could tell us something as some phones will not accept a sim and in my experience a large portion of international travelers in any given country do purchase a sim card upon arrival into a new country they're visiting. Hopefully that can be clarified but also could be hard to tell for sure without bank statements or phone and account records at this time.

A SIM is just the "key card" that allows your phone to connect to a cell network, and tells the network which services you've purchased. It can be a physical card or a digital e-SIM but the way it functions is the same. If you have an international cell phone plan it just means your service provider has already given you a SIM that can work around the world, without the need to purchase a new SIM in every country. A data SIM isn't wi-fi, it connects through the cell network just like any other SIM; it simply provides internet only, without phone calls or texting. Any SIM-based service will ping off cell towers.

Wi-Fi only has a range of a few hundred feet without using signal boosters. Other than using a satellite or SIM-based Wi-Fi hotspot, the only way to get Wi-Fi to the middle of a desert is by first running cable internet to the location. That may be what the Berber tribe you visited have done, which means their Wi-Fi signal should be just as good as the Wi-Fi in any home or office.

I've seen differing reports about the amount of Wi-Fi coverage at Anza-Borrego, including one report indicating there's free Wi-Fi across the entire park. But if Fang was connecting using the park's free Wi-Fi I assume LE could have checked for that and would already know. In which case LE's comment about not receiving any pings from Fang's phone would technically be true, but also be slightly disingenuous.

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

IN MOO, I think this would be typical of a newly skeketonized body/ remains as they have not had the time to dry out and be bleached by the sun yet ( from date of death to date found) .. idk though just what I can think of from the little education I've had in this area. 10ofrods could probably be more helpful with this one.. MOO

To me, it looks like there's some plant that has leaves/bark that is black or turns black (look to the far right in the skull picture - you can see two of these and then there's one more in the middle top).

It also looks to me like whoever found the skull surrounded it with similar sized round rocks (which is what we're taught to do in field archaeology, so that the find can be retrieved by experts in situ, but won't move anyplace else due to water movement - doing paleontology in places prone to flooding is traditional, the waters do the excavation for us). Anyway, a lot of people who visit places like Anza-Borrego know this - and many hikers do. I would posit that perhaps the same person put some of those plant fragments under the skull as a kind person would. IOW, a sort of funeral treatment - which is what normal, kind people would do upon finding a human body in their own landscape.

Then, they used darker pixelation in the photo on the parts of the skull that were already...in shadow (like the nostrils) and used lighter pixelation near the top of the skull.

It's true that there could still be unbleached elements of decomp on the skull - and we don't actually know how the skull was laying before it was placed in this stone circle (which I believe to have happened - it's very unusual for such a circle to just form itself in nature, but it does happen). If the skull was once face down, then it was subjected to more dampness (back in August) and yes, there could be discoloration from that which would take time to bleach.

Good eyes you guys have. Can any of you tell me where you think you see long bones and a pelvis? (What part of the picture - I assume it's the picture without the skull, but all I see is pixelation and what appear to be sticks).

 

[Herat]

To me, it looks like there's some plant that has leaves/bark that is black or turns black (look to the far right in the skull picture - you can see two of these and then there's one more in the middle top).

It also looks to me like whoever found the skull surrounded it with similar sized round rocks (which is what we're taught to do in field archaeology, so that the find can be retrieved by experts in situ, but won't move anyplace else due to water movement - doing paleontology in places prone to flooding is traditional, the waters do the excavation for us). Anyway, a lot of people who visit places like Anza-Borrego know this - and many hikers do. I would posit that perhaps the same person put some of those plant fragments under the skull as a kind person would. IOW, a sort of funeral treatment - which is what normal, kind people would do upon finding a human body in their own landscape.

Then, they used darker pixelation in the photo on the parts of the skull that were already...in shadow (like the nostrils) and used lighter pixelation near the top of the skull.

It's true that there could still be unbleached elements of decomp on the skull - and we don't actually know how the skull was laying before it was placed in this stone circle (which I believe to have happened - it's very unusual for such a circle to just form itself in nature, but it does happen). If the skull was once face down, then it was subjected to more dampness (back in August) and yes, there could be discoloration from that which would take time to bleach.

Good eyes you guys have. Can any of you tell me where you think you see long bones and a pelvis? (What part of the picture - I assume it's the picture without the skull, but all I see is pixelation and what appear to be sticks).

Interesting information about putting round rocks around the skull. At first I had though it looked like a fire ring, but I can see now what you are saying. I will remember this for my next hiking trip.

There is a second blurred brown piece towards the top of the skull photo, a few rocks are around it.

My first impression of the second photograph was that the piece on the left was a part of mandible, with several white teeth as those white spots. I don't see pelvis in that shape, but maybe scapula and some vertebrae. I'm just guessing. I think the gray material could be a T-shirt. There's sort of a straight rod shape on the left, that might just be a stick, but reminds me of a metal rod, such as you might have in backpack.

We're all just musing on stuff here, waiting for the next information release, which I truly hope will be the location the vehicle was found in, possibly with some photos?

 

[iamshadow21]

To me, it looks like there's some plant that has leaves/bark that is black or turns black (look to the far right in the skull picture - you can see two of these and then there's one more in the middle top).

It also looks to me like whoever found the skull surrounded it with similar sized round rocks (which is what we're taught to do in field archaeology, so that the find can be retrieved by experts in situ, but won't move anyplace else due to water movement - doing paleontology in places prone to flooding is traditional, the waters do the excavation for us). Anyway, a lot of people who visit places like Anza-Borrego know this - and many hikers do. I would posit that perhaps the same person put some of those plant fragments under the skull as a kind person would. IOW, a sort of funeral treatment - which is what normal, kind people would do upon finding a human body in their own landscape.

Then, they used darker pixelation in the photo on the parts of the skull that were already...in shadow (like the nostrils) and used lighter pixelation near the top of the skull.

It's true that there could still be unbleached elements of decomp on the skull - and we don't actually know how the skull was laying before it was placed in this stone circle (which I believe to have happened - it's very unusual for such a circle to just form itself in nature, but it does happen). If the skull was once face down, then it was subjected to more dampness (back in August) and yes, there could be discoloration from that which would take time to bleach.

Good eyes you guys have. Can any of you tell me where you think you see long bones and a pelvis? (What part of the picture - I assume it's the picture without the skull, but all I see is pixelation and what appear to be sticks).

Maybe I'm just seeing things, but I saw it as, the pelvis is central, but facedown, with the wings of the hip bones resting on the ground. One long bone slightly under the top left pointing outward, another under the bottom right and projecting left into the folds of fabric. But I could just be seeing things. It's just what it looks like to me.

MOO

 

[Centaurus]

I think it's these two photos. There are grey clothing remnants, IMO, but it's difficult to tell if it's a shirt or pants. The blurring, as intended, makes it hard to tell exactly what's what.

View attachment 458164 View attachment 458165

Second pic: Is that a foot on the NW corner of the photo by the boulder (just outside the blurred area)? I wish I knew the scale of this pic.

Looking at just the thumbnail of that photo I can see an entire body minus skull. The body looks bent around the smaller boulder. But if these are smaller rocks, I absolutely can see a pelvis, too. Anyone else see the foot/toes? Or is my brain just trying to find patterns in the noise?

 

[iamshadow21]

Second pic: Is that a foot on the NW corner of the photo by the boulder (just outside the blurred area)? I wish I knew the scale of this pic.

Looking at just the thumbnail of that photo I can see an entire body minus skull. The body looks bent around the smaller boulder. But if these are smaller rocks, I absolutely can see a pelvis, too. Anyone else see the foot/toes? Or is my brain just trying to find patterns in the noise?

Personally, I think the scale of the vegetation in the photo means it's unlikely the blurred out area is large enough to conceal a whole body. But that's just me.

MOO

 

[Bogbacal2]

Wow, I surely missed a lot in the past several days! I had almost an entire new thread to go though. I am *happy* ( and sad) to hear some answers are starting to come in and have a lot that I'd like to comment on but am extremly tired from reading and researching well into the night oast my bedtime so my articulation may not be the best right now, sorry.

One thought before I go regarding the photo's of JRF remains ( not the skull one but the other of the two blurred out photos) I noticed in the one photo that I feel like i can see what appears to be some material, looking like part of some Grey cargo or outdoor type pant leg and maybe even a tennis shoe at the end of the pants. If you zoom into this particular photo it appears the grey material/ pants are of one side/leg and kinda strung along the bottom of the big Boulder there lengthwise from left to right with a possible part of a shoe on the right side, as i examine from my pov view ( maybe running type shoes?) If I'm correct this may have been where his identification/ wallet was found. I know tgere had been a little speculation earlier aboit how these items could float away with his skeketal remains. As stated, I'm very tired so feel like this may not have been articulated tvery well ( due to a medical condition i don't actuate well on a good day so I assume this is probably worse) but someone else may be able to see what I am talking about. Not sure how much relevance this has now but saw it a while back and wanted to point it out. I have several more things I'd like to comment on or point out but will probably do that later in the next day or days. I'm still very new to these websleuths forums ( however i do and have followed through many avenues on other cases just not here until this case actually) so I am unsure where or how to post that original photo right now but it has been passed around a bit in the past. I'm hoping someone else will look at it and see what im trying to point out. If not then I'll try to figure out a way to do that myself later.
AllMOO

Yes! I do see material as well. Good find

 

[10ofRods]

Foot and Ankle Structure and Function (terms of service allow use of their pictures for public education).

That's what the bones of the foot look like. I don't see any of them in any picture - but the Calcaneus would be the one that maybe you sharper eyed people could spot.

It sure does look like some of JRF's clothing is found in conjunction with his body which, to me, means that he likely was more intact and, well, wearing some of his clothes when the August rains came.

I also think @Herat's view that some of these findings could have been washed down from up on a flat to be very convincing. That would have been around August 23, IIRC. Mid-September, they would have been in that wash for almost a month.


And I think the blurred shape in the second photo could be a number of different bones. Keep in mind that the pelvis looks different when it is in parts. Scapulas are also possible.

Can anyone say whether they think the shape is like an ilium or more like the lumbosacrum? Those are other candidates for a larger, flatter bone.

Anyway, diagnosing death from heat (or thirst) are two of the hardest post-mortem calls that a forensic team can make.

Ruling out foul play is a bit easier. If it's true that the truck was below them (at the Pinyon Wash trailhead area) and if they did make it up to Harper Flat through the Pinyon Canyon/Wash trail, the only thing that comes to my mind is in fact heat exhaustion. I don't think they both took a fall and became incapacitated (although if they, for some reason, decided to scramble at some point, maybe).

 

[10ofRods]

Personally, I think the scale of the vegetation in the photo means it's unlikely the blurred out area is large enough to conceal a whole body. But that's just me.

MOO

Oooh, good catch. When I look at it that way, I see what could be the spine (still held together by interlocking components and maybe still some collagen). I can see why some of you are thinking the lower part might be the pelvic region. Surely they found the long bones of the legs if this much was still in place.

I'd like them to be able to rule out a broken leg or similar for JRF.

 

[Herat]

I really think the gray fabric is a knit fabric from the soft way it wrinkles, and would correspond exactly to a typical man's heathered gray T-shirt. From it's size, there is no way those pixilated parts show a large part of the body. I keep noting the 4 white areas on the piece to the left. My first impression was molar teeth in a mandible, but its pretty wide. My second guess might be 4 posterior or lateral spinous processes from a segment of 4 vertebrae. I favor the wider area could be a scapula, but it could be part of the iliac bone, but not the entire, bilateral pelvis.

With the possibility of a T-shirt closely associated, the vertebral bodies and scapula, this could be the upper back /shoulder region. The clavicle might not be easy to identify in this large area of pixilation.

Just some thoughts

 

[iamshadow21]

View attachment 458199
Foot and Ankle Structure and Function (terms of service allow use of their pictures for public education).

That's what the bones of the foot look like. I don't see any of them in any picture - but the Calcaneus would be the one that maybe you sharper eyed people could spot.

It sure does look like some of JRF's clothing is found in conjunction with his body which, to me, means that he likely was more intact and, well, wearing some of his clothes when the August rains came.

I also think @Herat's view that some of these findings could have been washed down from up on a flat to be very convincing. That would have been around August 23, IIRC. Mid-September, they would have been in that wash for almost a month.


And I think the blurred shape in the second photo could be a number of different bones. Keep in mind that the pelvis looks different when it is in parts. Scapulas are also possible.

Can anyone say whether they think the shape is like an ilium or more like the lumbosacrum? Those are other candidates for a larger, flatter bone.

Anyway, diagnosing death from heat (or thirst) are two of the hardest post-mortem calls that a forensic team can make.

Ruling out foul play is a bit easier. If it's true that the truck was below them (at the Pinyon Wash trailhead area) and if they did make it up to Harper Flat through the Pinyon Canyon/Wash trail, the only thing that comes to my mind is in fact heat exhaustion. I don't think they both took a fall and became incapacitated (although if they, for some reason, decided to scramble at some point, maybe).

I'm already in bed, I can try and have a go at working out if there's anything to my possible pareidolia tomorrow, if discussion is still going on about the pictures.

MOO

 

[iamshadow21]

Oooh, good catch. When I look at it that way, I see what could be the spine (still held together by interlocking components and maybe still some collagen). I can see why some of you are thinking the lower part might be the pelvic region. Surely they found the long bones of the legs if this much was still in place.

I'd like them to be able to rule out a broken leg or similar for JRF.

Oh, good, thought I was genuinely having a mad moment. I don't often fall prey to the seeing things in shapes or blurs that others do, and I had just convinced myself I had deluded myself into seeing a shape that wasn't there. Doesn't mean it actually IS the pelvis, but I feel a bit less at sea now, if you can get what I was driving at.

MOO