Found Deceased CA - Fang Jin, 47, flew to LA from China, train to Palm Springs, Morongo Basin, 21 Jul 2023, w/ John Root Fitzpatrick, 55, (fnd dec.), 30 Jul ‘23 #3

[10ofRods]

Also I’d like to make the unfortunate point here that all we know is that JFG and FG felt they HAD to make the dangerous walk out. They weren’t stupid, and JFR did have training.

What we don’t know is how long they waited there. How long they waited for rescue before being that desperate.

And those two unfortunate things together make me think that they stayed there with whatever their water supply was, until to stay there meant to die anyhow. I think they ended up there for at least two days waiting for help, using up their water, until they were too incapacitated to finally leave successfully.

Excellent points. I've been trying to be optimistic - but you are absolutely right that they may have waited up there for as long as two days, without anyone going by. We just don't know. He pings off Julian on the 24th - perhaps as they are turning off the main highway, because I do believe the Julian tower is pingable out there. But up where the truck was found? Probably nothing in the way of cell service.

Your scenario is highly plausible. IMO.

 

[atomicsciencegal]

Well, if he reduced the tire pressure to the point where the tyres were actually flat (as described), that was too much deflation. You also reduce pressure if you're going over rocks embedded in sand. And if it's very hot, obviously, you have to let a little more out - but never to the point where the tyre is actually flat.

OTOH, if he did *not* reduce tyre pressure, then his chances of getting a flat on sharp rocks was real. Or from bouncing from on top of a rock to the rocks lower in a rutted dirt road. These are really sketchy roads up there.

We carry our own tyre inflater, which is operated from our truck's battery and we can reinflate anywhere (and have done so, after being on rocky roads). So a truly prepared desert driver doesn't just deflate tires and hope for the best - they have a system for reinflating. At any rate, "flat" means "no longer operable, wheel/rim basically on the ground, it's flat).

15-25 PSI is recommended for roads like that. I wonder if he even had a pressure gauge (we have two of them, just in case). I live a ways from where I work and should a freeway commute be impossible, I have seriously considered having to cross a couple of sandy river bottoms (with a bit of water) in my quest to get home after an earthquake (or during a fire). Our kids have the same equipment in their vehicles too (well, not the reinflator, but the gauges, and tyre repair goop). One of them does have the reinflator (she's the more adventurous one and drives a Jeep - the other one is not going off road unless she absolutely is forced to).

IMO.

I agree with all your points, and knowing what you’re doing is definitely the key. I’m really resonating with this part of your quote,

So a truly prepared desert driver doesn't just deflate tires and hope for the best - they have a system for reinflating.

But it’s also clear they weren’t prepaired for whatever happened out there. Maybe by the time they got the vehicle stuck (or stranded to the point that it needs a helicopter lift out) it was already past emergency point. Just getting out of the area wrecked the truck and they didn’t care because at that point all that mattered was getting the truck out of the situation, screw the condition it was or would be left in.
All I can think is that if I was stuck with my truck, unable to say, turn around, knowing I had limited water, the desert will kill you, and also responsible for another person - when it became clear no help was coming and death was imminent, I would no longer care about the condition of the vehicle. I would drive it over a cliff, over huge rocks, or put it into situations knowing it would be destroyed or damaged but MAY get us to safety.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Also I’d like to make the unfortunate point here that all we know is that JFG and FG felt they HAD to make the dangerous walk out. They weren’t stupid, and JFR did have training.

What we don’t know is how long they waited there. How long they waited for rescue before being that desperate.

And those two unfortunate things together make me think that they stayed there with whatever their water supply was, until to stay there meant to die anyhow. I think they ended up there for at least two days waiting for help, using up their water, until they were too incapacitated to finally leave successfully.

I'm still puzzled by our VI saying Fang's cellphone rang unanswered from the 22nd until the 25th of July. Calls didn't go to voicemail or receive a message that her phone wasn't available; her phone rang, which only happens if you have a signal.

If Fang and JRF were sitting for a day or two with a phone ringing, it makes no sense to me that they didn't call for help. Even if the signal was too poor to make an intelligible call, just connecting to 911 would tell the emergency services where they were.

Slowly but surely the pieces seem to be falling into place, but there are still those odd pieces which don't seem to fit.

 

[atomicsciencegal]

I'm still puzzled by our VI saying Fang's cellphone rang unanswered from the 22nd until the 25th of July. Calls didn't go to voicemail or receive a message that her phone wasn't available; her phone rang, which only happens if you have a signal.

If Fang and JRF were sitting for a day or two with a phone ringing, it makes no sense to me that they didn't call for help. Even if the signal was too poor to make an intelligible call, just connecting to 911 would tell the emergency services where they were.

Slowly but surely the pieces seem to be falling into place, but there are still those odd pieces which don't seem to fit.

I believe she was using WhatsApp? So if they ’called’ that way they hear ringing as she does not connect. She herself hears nothing as she is using wifi for Whatsapp and they have zero wifi signal in the middle of the dessert, and zero cell coverage to run a wifi hotspot from.
Am I right? Someone educate my very unenlightened self please if I’m going astray.

 

[cenazoic]

I'm interested in whether the gas tank was empty from using the air conditioner

“Under very hot conditions, AC use can reduce a conventional vehicle's fuel economy by more than 25%, particularly on short trips.”

Fuel Economy in Hot Weather

Find out how hot weather affects fuel economy and what you can do about it!

fueleconomy.gov

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I believe she was using WhatsApp? So if they ’called’ that way they hear ringing as she does not connect. She herself hears nothing as she is using wifi for Whatsapp and they have zero wifi signal in the middle of the dessert, and zero cell coverage to run a wifi hotspot from.
Am I right? Someone educate my very unenlightened self please if I’m going astray.

I think Fang was using WeChat rather than WhatsApp?

My understanding of WhatsApp (which I don't use) is that you get a different message depending on whether the phone you're calling is on or off, or connected to a network or not.

I'm not sure if WeChat works the same way, but if it does, Fang's family should know if her phone was turned on and receiving a signal. Based on what @mark1969 has said previously, they appear to believe her phone was turned on and ringing.

 

[atomicsciencegal]

“Under very hot conditions, AC use can reduce a conventional vehicle's fuel economy by more than 25%, particularly on short trips.”

Fuel Economy in Hot Weather

Find out how hot weather affects fuel economy and what you can do about it!

fueleconomy.gov

I would also expect the gas tank to be empty. But I would expect them to have emptied the tank post accident or stranding. That would make sense to me.
During whatever period between when they realized they MUST walk out and actually doing so? Especially if they realized this during the daytime morning and knew they had to wait until nightfall to walk out, and the car was already incapacitated? Heck yes, you’d use the gas running the aircon. Use the rest of it up in your stranded vehicle before you have to walk out, sure.

I wish they’d set the vehicle or tyres on fire to signal.

 

[Herat]

I would also expect the gas tank to be empty. But I would expect them to have emptied the tank post accident or stranding. That would make sense to me.
During whatever period between when they realized they MUST walk out and actually doing so? Especially if they realized this during the daytime morning and knew they had to wait until nightfall to walk out, and the car was already incapacitated? Heck yes, you’d use the gas running the aircon. Use the rest of it up in your stranded vehicle before you have to walk out, sure.

I wish they’d set the vehicle or tyres on fire to signal.

Even though they would face fines for entering a wildlife sanctuary and starting a fire, a bit smoky tire fire would have gotten attention and someone would have been able to find the smoke source, probably first by air, then by driving into the area. Possibly reaching them before heat stroke got them.

 

[atomicsciencegal]

I think Fang was using WeChat rather than WhatsApp?

My understanding of WhatsApp (which I don't use) is that you get a different message depending on whether the phone you're calling is on or off, or connected to a network or not.

I'm not sure if WeChat works the same way, but if it does, Fang's family should know if her phone was turned on and receiving a signal. Based on what @mark1969 has said previously, they appear to believe her phone was turned on and ringing.

Ahh thank you! I would ask - could her phone then not have had the same issue as JRF? His connected a ping. But it wasn’t enough for him to have coverage or use services. Could her phone have been close enough to register to WeChat as ‘on with signal’ but not actually had enough wifi strength to connect to her phone? Was she using his phone as a hotspot?
Im thinking of the Kramer Froon case here, and some of the phone issues with coverage in that case.

 

[atomicsciencegal]

Even though they would face fines for entering a wildlife sanctuary and starting a fire, a bit smoky tire fire would have gotten attention and someone would have been able to find the smoke source, probably first by air, then by driving into the area. Possibly reaching them before heat stroke got them.

Once the vehicle was incapacitated, I feel they needed it for shelter during the day. But I wish at least a tyre fire could have been set. Or set the whole truck on fire as you try to walk out In a last hope to call attention to at least your area.

Edit to add - and to me, JRF should have known to do that basic thing and it’s just further proof they were already not having normal thinking processes before they tried to walk out. They were already too incapacitated to leave.

 

[Babylon Sister]

I'm still puzzled by our VI saying Fang's cellphone rang unanswered from the 22nd until the 25th of July. Calls didn't go to voicemail or receive a message that her phone wasn't available; her phone rang, which only happens if you have a signal.

I have no idea if this would be parallelled in the outdoors, but... my office is in a basement and I get virtually no cell service. More than once my phone has rung but I cannot hear the caller and the caller cannot hear me. The call appears "received" in my call list. I sort of hope this was not the case...heartbreaking if a call was *that* close

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Ahh thank you! I would ask - could her phone then not have had the same issue as JRF? His connected a ping. But it wasn’t enough for him to have coverage or use services. Could her phone have been close enough to register to WeChat as ‘on with signal’ but not actually had enough wifi strength to connect to her phone? Was she using his phone as a hotspot?
Im thinking of the Kramer Froon case here, and some of the phone issues with coverage in that case.

I've been talking about Fang's phone because we know her family attempted to call her and she didn't answer, but everything I've said should also apply to JRF's phone. We know it last pinged the Julian tower on the 24th but we have no other information as far as I know.

If there's enough of a signal to send a ping, there should be enough to make or receive a call. It might be a patchy, broken-up call that is barely audible or intelligible, but it would be enough for someone to know the attempt had been made. It would leave a record somewhere.

Other phones were able to call Fang, and a cell tower was able to pick up the ping from JRF, but neither Fang nor JRF appear to have even attempted to make or answer any calls themselves.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I have no idea if this would be parallelled in the outdoors, but... my office is in a basement and I get virtually no cell service. More than once my phone has rung but I cannot hear the caller and the caller cannot hear me. The call appears "received" in my call list. I sort of hope this was not the case...heartbreaking if a call was *that* close

Yep. But in those cases the call is still sent/received and leaves a record. If you called 911 they would still receive the call and be able to track where you called from, even if the signal was too poor for them to hear or speak to you.

 

[acutename]

If you have never been to this park, this is the Park Office:

200 Palm Canyon Dr · 200 Palm Canyon Dr, Borrego Springs, CA 92004

Building

www.google.com

It looked just like that too- low, flat, like a bunker to escape the SUN. Years ago, we went to it (Jan or Feb) and there was a small marked trail behind it that went to an oasis- super small, underground water, a few trees- "out of no where" as it were - like a miracle- because there is water underground (or there was that year) but i cannot tell you how much I felt as if I was on the moon and how much I wanted to go back to trees. shade, etc. I remember a few buildings- I think that must have been Borrego Springs which now as per google has a few more buildings now, but to me, it was a super harsh alien environment (sorry desert lovers) and like a lizard, I was just looking for a rock to crawl under most of the time I was there.

 

[tarabull]

I wish they’d set the vehicle or tyres on fire to signal.

Above...RSBM...

Did they have a firestarter?

 

[10ofRods]

I agree with all your points, and knowing what you’re doing is definitely the key. I’m really resonating with this part of your quote,

But it’s also clear they weren’t prepaired for whatever happened out there. Maybe by the time they got the vehicle stuck (or stranded to the point that it needs a helicopter lift out) it was already past emergency point. Just getting out of the area wrecked the truck and they didn’t care because at that point all that mattered was getting the truck out of the situation, screw the condition it was or would be left in.
All I can think is that if I was stuck with my truck, unable to say, turn around, knowing I had limited water, the desert will kill you, and also responsible for another person - when it became clear no help was coming and death was imminent, I would no longer care about the condition of the vehicle. I would drive it over a cliff, over huge rocks, or put it into situations knowing it would be destroyed or damaged but MAY get us to safety.

Excellent points - that really paints a picture of what might have happened. So maybe he did try to go up against whatever barrier is there to keep vehicles off Harper Flat - but ended up with an inoperable vehicle. That would be a last ditch effort.

<modsnip: Off topic>

So I find it interesting that LE reported no signs of extra water in the truck.

Totally agree that one wouldn't worry at all about the truck - and that it's possible it did crash through some barrier, and came to a sad end with 3 flat tires.

 

[Bogbacal2]

“Under very hot conditions, AC use can reduce a conventional vehicle's fuel economy by more than 25%, particularly on short trips.”

Fuel Economy in Hot Weather

Find out how hot weather affects fuel economy and what you can do about it!

fueleconomy.gov

When I sit idle here in Louisiana mid-summer (100 degrees on) my fuel depletes much faster than on a cool day. Lets say I discovered that by mistake!!

 

[Herat]

Above...RSBM...

Did they have a firestarter?

That's actually an interesting question.

First of all, a simple box of matches. Wooden ones best, but honestly, always bring matches.

There are some easy ways to start a fire with easily available fire kits: flint/striker/prepared kindling accelerator like fire cubes, shaved wood fibers, or other common accelerators. Doritos are also actually good tinder. Maybe not a lot of wood there to burn, but certainly very dry brush or dead cactus material. And I have to assume he had a decent knife/machete, camper saw / ax.

But you should also be able to start a fire from your vehicle: Maybe your vehicle still has a cigarette lighter. Or use the jumper cables you should have to spark through a metal piece under tinder ( this video uses a paper clip, but also show how incredible dry steel wool works with this !

Here Are Some Ways to Start a Fire With Your Car

For, you know, outdoors purposes.

www.roadandtrack.com

If you don't bring these types, you may have to resort to the old stick rubbing techniques. But that is actually very hard physical work, especially if you are desperately dehydrated in 115 degree-plus heat in non-relenting blazing sun. Maybe Navy SEAL training has them doing this, but honestly, when out in a remote wilderness area with a vehicle, you should always be prepared to build a fire without exhausting yourself.

Then when the fire is going, pour some engine oil into the remnants of one of your tires ( at a safe distance from the vehicle) and set it on fire.

 

[megs1477]

A lot of the recent comments are reminding me of an episode of Discovery Channel’s series I Shouldn’t Be Alive, where a father and daughter went on an over night camping trip in the Australian Outback. The next day the venture deeper looking for a lake. Father is well prepared and knowledgeable about the landscape. He has 3 spare tires, plenty of food and water.
Then one problem after another. They blow three tires, using all their spares, then the fourth. No cell service. Somehow their vehicle starts on fire. They lost most of their supplies. They almost died, but were fortunate someone drove through and rescued them. I think the point was, as prepared and knowledgeable as you are, landscapes as harsh as these are very dangerous and so many unforeseen hazards can pop up.

"I Shouldn't Be Alive" A Dad's Worst Nightmare (TV Episode 2010) ⭐ 8.2 | Documentary, Biography, Drama

42m | TV-PG

m.imdb.com

 

[whatsnext]

Did I miss something or why is the smell of decomposition mentioned in the warrant discounted?