GUILTY CA - Gianni, 24, & Sal Belvedere, 22, Ilona Flint, 22, San Diego, 24 Dec 2013 - #1

[TravelingBug]

Here are a few of my lingering questions:

• TravelingBug mentioned hearing a snippet of Ilona's 9/11 call. I didn't think any of that had been released. Did you hear it on the police scanner or from the press? Either way, does anyone know where I could find any of it?
• TravelingBug, you also mentioned driving through that area since this occurred. Was any of the crime scene still active? If so, did you notice where any of the evidence markers were? Like if there were shell casings or anything away from the final location of the car. Your theory about being shot in separate instances is interesting, and I haven't heard that mentioned anywhere else.
• Sealing Sal's cause-of-death doesn't make any sense to me. What could they possibly want to hide? That seemed like the one thing that was definitely clear... his dying from multiple gunshot wounds. That's not standard operating procedure in open cases like this, is it?
• What's with all the conflicting information about Gianni's last known location and presence (or lack thereof) at the mall? Do most of you think that the police are actually pretty clear about his whereabouts at the time and they're withholding that information?
• How significant is it that Gianni hasn't been named as a suspect? Is that typical in missing-person situations in which they don't want to discourage his return? It hasn't been reported that Ilona named him as the shooter in her 9-1-1 call, and it seems like she definitely would have. Would the police be obligated to report that he's armed and dangerous if they thought he was? I can't tell if I'm blinded by high opinion of Gianni, or if it really is likely that he had nothing to do with this (or was another victim).

I heard it both. I heard it as it aired on the scanner (thus hearing all the following transmissions) but it's also been public since later that morning (after the shooting).

The 911 call has been aired repeatedly on all the San Diego broadcasts, maybe with the exception of KUSI.

They've not played it recently since things have died down a lot, but I'll try to hunt for it somewhere. So far when I just tried to find it quickly I'm finding reports and parts of broadcasts but not any with the call.

The fact that I'm not finding it easily admittedly makes me wonder if they were asked to remove it for some reason. I'll keep looking though.

This one you hear (below) you can hear the dispatcher relaying some later on, but it's not Ilona's call. But it's a good one for anyone who didn't see any of the local broadcasts as it shows the position of their car w/ the other car, where it is in the lot (overhead view) and some of the evidence markers outside the car.

They were all leading with the 911 call once it was released, then 'just' including it in their broadcasts the next day or even two, but I've not heard it re-aired since.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/24295764/...art=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9667956

Gosh no about evidence stuff being there.

They didn't open the area until everything was removed - which was about 8 am Christmas Eve morning (you can see that in the above video...or maybe the one just before or after it - KFMB, which is the CSB 8 station, has it so you can scroll through about a dozen of their stories on it)

They weren't letting anyone near until it was all investigated, documented, etc. They were VERY thorough out there. This kind of thing doesn't really happen in San Diego. They WANT this solved...

As you can see in several of the videos, there are some things visible a bit outside of the car, but in a mall parking lot during Christmas week, I'm not sure if they even know if what was there was related or not. Obviously they just document everything.

I suspect police DO know if Gianni was in the mall or not. SDPD have been incredibly impressive with how quickly they've pulled and reviewed surveillance video for other situations - even things very minor (and obviously far, far minor compared to two people being fatally shot)

If NONE of them were ever in the mall at all and only in the parking lot then that may be a little iffier, but their cars would be more easily identified b/c they have Utah plates on both cars. Now, if Gianni had been there with someone else and thus not in his car, that could be harder. But I do think that SOMEONE would have publicly stated by now that they had loaned Gianni their car or something, but that seems unlikely since he AND his car are missing, so he'd have had to go somewhere and swap cars before he left.

Granted, Tierrasanta is VERY close. At that time of night easily less than 10 minutes unless you really hit the couple of lights in Tierrasanta wrong. But that is very unlikely and almost hard to do, especially after about 10, since it's a pretty sleepy little place by and large. And as one of my earlier posts explained, where this happened is RIGHT by the freeway, so it'd be really easy to get back home (or far away) very easily. Actually, you could probably do it in closer to 5 minutes at that time of night. It'd be easy to do a quick run between the two.

I find it impossible to think that they don't have significantly far more information than we think they have based on surveillance.

Unfortunately, I think the fact that they're not releasing more doesn't bode well for Gianni.

As far as if Ilona would have said it was Gianni who shot her (if he did) I'm not sure that's necessarily the case. After all, she didn't say that Salvatore was also shot. Nor did she even look around (in the slightest) to give ANYTHING that would help them find her - which you would expect, given how calm she was, and that (as I said) she got WHICH mall right and there were A LOT of things that she could have 'spit out' just to get them any more information. (Part of why I think there may have been a first shot elsewhere as I've explained elsewhere)

And, depending on the angle of the shot that she at least wasn't incapacitated after since she was able to call 911, might have been from behind or _____ preventing her from even seeing who fired the shot. IF the car was where they were found and where we've seen, she could have been turned facing Salvatore, for instance, and been shot from behind and not ever seeing the shooter.

 

[Curious Me]

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...San-Diego-Man-Gianni-Belvedere-237577321.html

"A heart transplant was performed after his death."

"But even through this tragedy, his precious heart now beats in someone else," said Donato. "What better way during the Christmas season to give the gift of life."

 

[TravelingBug]

Ok, I was writing and hunting and listening to the videos on all the news sites while I was writing that post...

I am convinced the call has been removed.

It's weird b/c NOW one of the videos says since it's an active investigation and there could be evidence, they're now not releasing the 911 call from right before her death or the surveillance video from the parking lot.

So there must have been a reason it was removed after they all aired it. In fact, several of KNSD's videos now only have audio from the detective speaking, the part that was their anchors (or where my recollection is of there having been the 911 call and parts of the dispatcher's transmission aired) now is just dead air. You see video and then nothing till the investigator.

 

[TravelingBug]

Now I can't remember why I had held this one off to the side when I was re-listening to them all...I think it's another where you hear the dispatcher, a bit, with what was the possible suspect car description and DoT (toward the 8 freeway).

If that's the one I think it is, it doesn't include enough for me to remember if it was once they had gone through the several other car descriptions, or if it was when that was the initial one and before the other possible vehicles were brought into the picture briefly.

http://www.10news.com/news/2-people-found-shot-in-car-near-westfield-mission-valley-mall12242013

 

[TravelingBug]

The good thing is, people are DEFINITELY looking for Gianni and police are jumping on anything related. And that was even with it not being the SDPD jurisdiction, and they (responding agency) arrived in under two minutes. Not that you wouldn't expect it, but good to see, especially when it's not the original investigating agency. And while that area tends to be a little 'emergency traffic only' hungry, they still wouldn't normally do it for someone just thinking they saw someone - you'd think they'd scope it out briefly themselves first or something - so I think they felt there was enough validity to use the tone, in addition.

 

[MsFacetious]

Update on local news, interview with the brother's uncle.

http://kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_8905.shtml

G was at the mall that night, they have confirmed that.
They took two cars to the mall, S picked up I in his Dad's car, I think.
G took another car, they don't know why.
They were doing some last minute shopping.
Uncle believes G witnessed it and took off, doesn't believe he is involved.

 

[Marg from Oz]

That is the first report that says Giani was supposed to go to the mall too. I think if Ilona knew who shot her she would have mentioned it to the 911 dispatch seeing that she was relatively calm at the time. I am also wondering if she had been shot in the head when she made the call or did that come after.
If someone was also after Gianni and he took off to get away from them then I can't see any reason why he couldn't call home to get assistance from his family. Did Gianni have a cell phone?
I can only see two possibilities here. 1. He has become a victim here too. 2. He was the perpetrator.
I can't think of any other scenarios that would not have him contact his family. JMOO

 

[TravelingBug]

That is the first report that says Giani was supposed to go to the mall too. I think if Ilona knew who shot her she would have mentioned it to the 911 dispatch seeing that she was relatively calm at the time. I am also wondering if she had been shot in the head when she made the call or did that come after.
If someone was also after Gianni and he took off to get away from them then I can't see any reason why he couldn't call home to get assistance from his family. Did Gianni have a cell phone?
I can only see two possibilities here. 1. He has become a victim here too. 2. He was the perpetrator.
I can't think of any other scenarios that would not have him contact his family. JMOO

I still can't shake the could Sal have shot Ilona (the first shot, after which she called 911) for whatever reason (jealousy? or...?) possibility...heck, maybe even both shots.

And then Gianni shot him in retaliation?

One of the only reasons I can see Ilona not having said anyone else was shot would be if no one else had been shot at that time (same with her not saying WHO if she knew - though I still can't reconcile that w/ her not giving anything else location wise if they had truly been shopping at the mall...)

And, if as the uncle says they PLANNED on going to the mall and they were all there, then that REALLY makes things not fit (to me) - because shortly after 1, there was NOTHING else open but Macy's, so they had to have been leaving Macy's...

But then Ilona would know where she was or at least say SOMETHING about Macy's...because she'd know she had been there (or heck, if they decided to REALLY do last minute shopping, ONLY go to Macy's - but again, that'd have been the known destination if that were the case).

The odds of S & I waiting in the car for Gianni to finish shopping or something - when he was in a separate car (which has to be the case with all the early reports from family saying both that he'd last been seen in Tierrasanta at 10 AND that they weren't sure why S & I would be together, in other words not with G) AND the two of them mysteriously being shot while waiting seem next to non-existent.

Never mind that if they were in separate cars they had no need to wait, they could have gone ahead without him. And it doesn't make a lot of sense to a) go separately and b) S & I be together if they were really all going to be at the mall together, when they live SO nearby.

Because even if one of the brothers wasn't coming from/going to the same place, why would G not have taken her one way or the other, and why would there have been so much in the way of discrepancy about his whereabouts, them being without him, and nothing for quite some time about any concern about G. She clearly hadn't gone WITH G to the mall - he was seen AT his home and that was the last place he had been known to be. And she wasn't leaving WITH him - or she'd have been in HIS car.

And like you said, I don't think there are any other options as to why Gianni hasn't been found, beyond what you've said - other than if he killed himself (for any reason) thus technically probably not considered a victim or a perpetrator (unless he were to kill himself out of guilt) - meaning perhaps killing himself out of grief or guilt that it was them and not him or something)

If his family is as close as they have said, if his brother AND fiancee were just killed and he's got all his other family members on both sides pleading for him to make his presence known, and he's staying away by choice, then that would probably make everything else said/believed to be true of him in question, because that'd be just unbelievably cruel.

To me that means he's got to either be currently being held somewhere, be dead - at his own hands or those of someone else, or he's the perpetrator and thus would be turning himself in if he made his location known.

Unfortunately, none of those are good options for his family/loved ones.

 

[MsFacetious]

We just don't have the information on timeline and whereabouts and everything.
We don't know where they shopped, when they shopped, when they exited the building, etc.

We don't know if they used one gun or two guns... we don't know if these people normally had a gun.
(If S shot IF and G shot S in retaliation, wouldn't that be 2 guns?)
So if this can be proven wrong by a timeline, then fine... but here goes.

I have entertained another theory that is kind of out there.
People are entertaining the idea that G is the perpetrator, what if it was S?

What if they were away from the mall somewhere (maybe shopped, then left.)
What if S and G got into a fight?
What if S shot G somewhere away from the mall?
(Any water nearby that a car could be pushed into with a body inside?)

What if S then drove around with IF while S tried to figure out WTF to do?
What if he saw no way out after having killed his brother?

What if IF believed she would be okay if she just remained calm?
What if this is the time period when IF called 911, remaining calm to save her life?
What if they ended up back at the mall and he shot her (a 2nd time?) and then himself?

This would explain why they have sealed the details of S' death.
It would explain the lack of treating G like a suspect.
It would explain IF's demeanor and actions as well.

Obviously the gun would still be there and the trajectory would show self inflicted on S.
It's just too bad WE don't have those details so we can eliminate possibilities.

NO scenario REALLY makes sense here.
But the murder/suicide one sounds a bit more reasonable.

Of course a motive is still elusive even if this is the scenario.
I think the reason for this always would be a mystery, no matter what the scenario is. :twocents:

 

[TravelingBug]

We just don't have the information on timeline and whereabouts and everything.
We don't know where they shopped, when they shopped, when they exited the building, etc.

We don't know if they used one gun or two guns... we don't know if these people normally had a gun.
(If S shot IF and G shot S in retaliation, wouldn't that be 2 guns?)
So if this can be proven wrong by a timeline, then fine... but here goes.

I have entertained another theory that is kind of out there.

What if they were away from the mall somewhere (maybe shopped, then left.)
What if S and G got into a fight?
What if S shot G somewhere away from the mall?
(Any water nearby that a car could be pushed into with a body inside?)

What if S then drove around with IF while S tried to figure out WTF to do?
What if he saw no way out after having killed his brother?

What if IF believed she would be okay if she just remained calm?
What if this is the time period when IF called 911, remaining calm to save her life?
What if they ended up back at the mall and he shot her (a 2nd time?) and then himself?

This would explain why they have sealed the details of S' death.
It would explain the lack of treating G like a suspect.
It would explain IF's demeanor and actions as well.

Obviously the gun would still be there and the trajectory would show self inflicted on S.
It's just too bad WE don't have those details so we can eliminate possibilities.

NO scenario REALLY makes sense here.
But the murder/suicide one sounds a bit more reasonable.

Of course a motive is still elusive even if this is the scenario.
I think the reason for this always would be a mystery, no matter what the scenario is. :twocents:

If they were really shopping, then either:

• They had just left Macy's, which should have been very apparent to officers even that evening - since I have NO doubt they had people pulling video while they were still packaging Salvatore to transport (they've been THAT quick even on very petty shoplifting things) and we KNOW they could get into Macy's since that was open, they wouldn't have needed to summon someone for mall footage initially, they could start with whatever they could find on Macy's video.
• They were wandering the closed mall, since there was nothing else open. Which then seems unlikely that security wouldn't have seen them in the mall - and frankly it's not the most popular mall - the Target there has helped tremendously - and w/ underground parking in one area, they do watch it b/c it became a destination for skateboarders.

If they had been shopping, there should also have been SOMETHING in the car indicating where they had been...bags, receipts, something. (Unless they had an entirely unsuccessful trip - which, while possible, seems unlikely when you've got the countdown of getting shopping done and no real time left - plus if they left TO shop then you'd think they'd have had some ideas/goals at least) That also should have helped w/ video.

I suspect LE knows exactly where - if at all - they were in the mall, and when they came and left. If the car was really at the same place the entire time (odd given it's positioning in relation to the other car it's partly into, so it'd seem like it had either moved or they were truly in the process of leaving or arriving when this happened) then they also have a very limited number of cameras to even have to look at as far as their arrival and departure points. Because they'd only have had a few places to access anything.

As far as water, yes, there is the San Diego River right there. It's off Camino del Este and Camino de la Reina (runs along Camino de la Reina - basically parallel to Camino del Rio North and the 8 freeway).

There IS water there, but not a ton - and we've not had much rain. At this point it's really more muddy sludge. It's not what it often is after rains where it's flooding and causing problems for the entire Mission/Fashion Valley area with all roads blocked, etc.

It would be very hard to get someone in there right now, especially without it being seen. You'd have to basically toss someone over the railing of Camino del Este into the river, but there are A LOT of condos that all back up to the river, the trolley runs over it, so there are cameras, and that's also a pretty travelled road (see my earlier posts about access to the freeway from that general area). You'd have the same problem if you went further down either way along the river.

We HAVE just had two attempts of people to hide in the river - but they were both shoplifters and both basically ran trying to flee from officers and hide in the reeds and then got stuck in the sludge and either had to go under and try to think they'd be undetected or give up. Both were chased out by canines w/ the SDPD helicopter overhead. And EVERYONE knew about it happening.

Even at 1 am that'd be a nearly impossible place to try to dump someone undetected, and there's no way they'd not have been found by now. The river path is used constantly, and for whatever reason, people seem to like "watching" it...a body would have been found before now, I believe.

In addition, there are a pretty decent number of homeless folks that also tend to congregate in the general SD River area there in that particular spot. Others more along Camino de la Reina. Officers know all of them by name (or nearly all) and they're all very well aware of what go on there, also (the homeless folks) and, for the most part, there's a decent rapport between most of them and officers. It's highly unlikely that something could have happened there and it wouldn't have been seen and then someone told.

I know for a fact that a few of them also have become friends with other passer-bys who walk the river path regularly, etc. And I know that there are people who regularly bring food or supplies to them in their little camps. And, just because it's what people do, there's always talk about what's gone on.

The two shoplifters - literally almost a week to the day apart - trying the same escape route to the exact same spot in the river - was a huge topic of conversation among all those in the area, nevermind those who nearly got trampled in the area.

I really think they'd have said something to someone - if not the cops, than to one of the people who have befriended various ones of them. And they, certainly, would have reported it if a witness was afraid to.

There's just been too much shock over this happening - especially there (there are definitely a few areas this wouldn't have been as much of a shock in and that probably wouldn't have garner the same reaction)

And while I don't know for a fact that officers went to interview the homeless folks that are in that particular area intentionally (those who arrived on scene and found it was a shooting and then the investigators who arrived after) those who patrol that beat would have known to have asked them, I am confident.

So while yes, there is water, I really doubt it'll end up coming into play (unless it was far further away from the area)

I agree about it seems that there's something significant about what's been sealed as far as Salvatore. And while to some extent the ToD can be explained by him being a donor (we know at least his heart was donated) that doesn't explain why they would seal CoD.

 

[TravelingBug]

Admittedly I am incredibly disappointed that what looked like a huge break this afternoon didn't end up being one. Because the best "end" would be finding Gianni - alive (no matter how he plays into this whole thing).

Because frankly, unless he's found dead and he's got a gun in his hand or something clearly indicating suicide, only finding his body may not actually end up providing many answers.

Sure, if the bullet matched those which killed Salvatore and Ilona then it'd be likely it was the same gun involved (but even that wouldn't necessarily mean the same shooter in all three) but not necessarily more.

You'd hope forensics, angle, etc. would help indicate if any were self-inflicted or rule in/out, but...possibly not.

Given trying to save Sal and probably not necessarily being sure if Ilona was dead immediately either, their hands were probably touched or possibly even wiped to such an extent that checking their hands for GSR would very possibly not even be an option.

Unless there was evidence that made it very plausible that any had been self-induced or fired from inside the car not by someone outside, anything OTHER than 'simple' homicide was NOT the direction they were looking, especially initially.

It was all that there were two victims, whether the motive was robbery, etc.

It had to have been hours in before they had any awareness that there was a third person not accounted for that was closely enough related that the added complexity and factor that that brought even arose.

Because until they ID'd them (which should have been easy since presumably both had ID on them of some sort since they were shopping) and (apparently) family thought it was unusual that S & I were together, and then, presumably, tried to locate Gianni, that the third possible victim OR the triangle possibility would have come up.

Despite the uncle saying that they knew Gianni was also at the mall, I'm not at all convinced that's really the case.

There could be someone who thought he was since he wasn't home, or because of assuming that S & I wouldn't be there without G, or one thinking he mentioned going (or, heck, leaving after they did SAYING he was going to meet them to shop w/ them) and I can even understand why they would want that to have been the case and so are now believing it (if that makes sense?)

But that totally contradicts what was first being said.

One part of that is the whole bit of at least some family members not knowing why he would be at the mall with Ilona and not Gianni. If they knew he was there or planning to meet them, that obviously takes away that whole concern (not really the right word but the only one I can come up with right now) - he'd have been there b/c they had all been planning on it.

But unless Ilona and Salvatore left from somewhere other than home, there's still no explanation of why they'd have gone in separate cars, particularly with that pairing, if all three were in on the plan. And if Gianni, at least, had left from somewhere other than home, then there's another person who knows his whereabouts and isn't saying so - because home is where he was last supposed to be, and, based on that, if they had known his plan was to go to the mall, then they'd have said that from the get go and this would all be a moot point.

Plus, if they had known he was going there, there is NO way the police and media wouldn't have immediately raised a red flag about the possibility of a third victim, instead of it being many hours later. And even then, initially the little being said was only on family FB accounts, which (IMO) forced a third person so intimately connected to be mentioned as needing to be found. Fear-mongering or trumping up non-stories just for the news/drama factor, frankly, is something the media tends to love, that "killer on the loose and possible/likely third victim" is just the kind of 'upset' to get views that would have been out there as soon as it became known.

Gianni's last known location was 3 hours prior at home in Tierrasanta NOT at the mall. It was much later that day before the possibility of that (him at the mall) came up, and that seemed to have stemmed from information the U-T was given.

Given that the only non-family member talking at the time was Andre, who has said at least a couple of things that also seem to really just be what he wants to believe is the case, I strongly suspect that the U-T got that from him. And, frankly, I wouldn't be totally shocked if we sometime learn that Andre is also the source that then also ends up being the "sighting at the mall" source. It's a very preferable and easier to swallow possibility than the chance that G was something other than an additional victim.

 

[CuriousFriend]

First, thank you for all of the kind condolences and welcomes. I attended a very nice vigil earlier tonight, which was well attended. I've had my own share of grief, but I was reminded of how many people were touched by their lives and now how much pain is felt by so many. I wish there was more that I could do to help their families and others that are having an especially hard time coping.

All of the grief is only compounded by all of this uncertainty, and the rushes to judgment that many are making.

CuriousFriend: thank you for joining us, though I wish it were under better circumstances. I'm very sorry for your loss.

Do you know if Ilona, Gianni and Sal all lived together?

The video at the link below makes it sound like they shared a condo/townhouse (2 bed + 2.5 bath, according to real estate info I found for the address) but media can get things wrong.

I'm not completely sure of all the details of their living arrangement in San Diego. I've only been to their home in Provo, and I can't recall if I ever asked them about specifics of their new home. That said, my understanding was that they were indeed all living together in that home.

And as far as I can tell from satellite imagery and Google Streetview, that condo looks like it could be sufficiently spacious to accommodate that.

I find it impossible to think that they don't have significantly far more information than we think they have based on surveillance.

Unfortunately, I think the fact that they're not releasing more doesn't bode well for Gianni.

As far as if Ilona would have said it was Gianni who shot her (if he did) I'm not sure that's necessarily the case. After all, she didn't say that Salvatore was also shot. Nor did she even look around (in the slightest) to give ANYTHING that would help them find her - which you would expect, given how calm she was, and that (as I said) she got WHICH mall right and there were A LOT of things that she could have 'spit out' just to get them any more information. (Part of why I think there may have been a first shot elsewhere as I've explained elsewhere)

I have heard some rumors from closer sources about the contents of video surveillance and her 9-1-1 call. As that information hasn't been made public and I'm not completely sure the rumors are reliable, I'll need a little time to consider how much I feel comfortable revealing. For now, I will say that there is supposedly very pertinent video evidence and what I was told about it makes me more confident that Gianni was not the shooter.

I was also told that there were no shots fired after the 9-1-1 call, and she apparently died from wounds she sustained before the call. Other details from the same account (if true) also lead me to believe that the car was already parked there at the time of the shooting.

Ok, I was writing and hunting and listening to the videos on all the news sites while I was writing that post...

I am convinced the call has been removed.

It's weird b/c NOW one of the videos says since it's an active investigation and there could be evidence, they're now not releasing the 911 call from right before her death or the surveillance video from the parking lot.

So there must have been a reason it was removed after they all aired it. In fact, several of KNSD's videos now only have audio from the detective speaking, the part that was their anchors (or where my recollection is of there having been the 911 call and parts of the dispatcher's transmission aired) now is just dead air. You see video and then nothing till the investigator.

That's interesting and disappointing. I hope they haven't permanently snuffed that from public availability. When I have time, perhaps I will look for some archives that would be less likely to get redacted.

I still can't shake the could Sal have shot Ilona (the first shot, after which she called 911) for whatever reason (jealousy? or...?) possibility...heck, maybe even both shots.

And then Gianni shot him in retaliation?

One of the only reasons I can see Ilona not having said anyone else was shot would be if no one else had been shot at that time (same with her not saying WHO if she knew - though I still can't reconcile that w/ her not giving anything else location wise if they had truly been shopping at the mall...)

And, if as the uncle says they PLANNED on going to the mall and they were all there, then that REALLY makes things not fit (to me) - because shortly after 1, there was NOTHING else open but Macy's, so they had to have been leaving Macy's...

But then Ilona would know where she was or at least say SOMETHING about Macy's...because she'd know she had been there (or heck, if they decided to REALLY do last minute shopping, ONLY go to Macy's - but again, that'd have been the known destination if that were the case).

What leads you to believe that Sal was a shooter? If it's the CoD sealing, I've concluded that what they were probably trying to hide was the time of death and the cause just went along with it. Apparently some sources had previously reported (most likely correctly) that he died before it was officially acknowledged, but they retracted.

I'm not so sure about this new story from the uncle. It's hard to believe that he would run from everyone this long out of shock or fear. I would like to know if there's a reason why they reported that he may be in Utah, beyond his obvious ties to this area. I have not even heard rumors or conjecture from people I know suggesting that he's hiding somewhere around here.

The only way that I can make the Uncle's story click logically for me is if Gianni did witness the murder of Ilona and Sal at the mall, panicked and drove away, but was pursued by the shooter and killed or kidnapped elsewhere. It's hard to know how people would act in heinous situations, but I unfortunately can't imagine that he would choose to disappear like this (especially as a mere witness).

Another possibility that I don't believe has been mentioned here is that Gianni could have been nabbed and used as bait to draw Sal and Ilona to the mall where they could be executed. Presumably in such a scenario, someone would be seeking to cause as much pain to the Belvedere family as possible. This scenario would also undoubtedly mean that someone in the family has found themselves in deep **** with very bad people, and I personally don't know of any evidence to suggest that (beyond being Italian, which is not the kind of extraordinary evidence I'd need to confirm such extraordinary ideas).

 

[TravelingBug]

One thing I can't reconcile is why, if Gianni is a victim, the killer decided to do something ENTIRELY different with him than Sal and Ilona?

Unless he's got access to gobs of money or...? Why would someone kill the other two and either let Gianni run, spare him from being left for dead in the parking lot, or even hold him hostage or take him elsewhere, but not do the same for them? What would be gained by that?

And unless this ALL happened somewhere else entirely, and Gianni is there, then how would they have ended up where they did?

Someone would have had to have moved at least Salvatore's body to drive the car to where it was found, then put him in the front seat and 'stage' him. But that means that someone would have to have blood on at least their clothes from moving him - which would possibly also mean blood transfer to that person's vehicle. Plus, that would mean moving a body in the sight of surveillance cameras.

While just shooting people there is also brazen, shooting would be far less time consuming by comparison, as well as quicker than moving a body. That'd seem like it'd be veering on the completely stupid criminal hall of fame and there'd be no way there wasn't an arrest or a very good lead...unless it's because that person can't be found to be charged.

I suppose there is the outside chance that the shooting happened elsewhere (and they were never actually really shopping at the mall either -or were just parking for a VERY quick Macy's run) and Salvatore thought he could drive to get help or something...but that makes little sense (to me) also. If that was the case, then again, we're back to her not mentioning Salvatore being shot when she called 911. And if he were able to drive, then you'd think HE would also have called 911 or helped with details.

If they were truly only doing a quick Macy's run and hadn't even gone in yet, then that becomes even more troubling in my mind. Then there's really no reason for them not to have gone to the mall together, especially since where they live is so close...not like across town, which most locals wouldn't bat an eye at either. So why go separately then?

But if that is the case, how in the world did someone come up and fire at least four shots, with NO ability to have planned ahead, plus then trying to take down two different people when they essentially would be entirely unable of catching BOTH off guard since they wouldn't have all been facing the person.

And if that somehow was the case, the person would also have had to have been really lucky to have not had either of them do something to try to attract attention (even if you overlook people not hearing the shots) - honk the horn or something.

That would also almost necessitate the shooter having been crouching down in wait - but they'd have almost certainly seen that and done something in response (park elsewhere, or...)

Plus, it'd have to be a very brazen person since it was done within earshot of what was clearly an occupied RV AND in the one place people still would have been entering/exiting.

I don't know...

 

[TravelingBug]

First, thank you for all of the kind condolences and welcomes. I attended a very nice vigil earlier tonight, which was well attended. I've had my own share of grief, but I was reminded of how many people were touched by their lives and now how much pain is felt by so many. I wish there was more that I could do to help their families and others that are having an especially hard time coping.

All of the grief is only compounded by all of this uncertainty, and the rushes to judgment that many are making.

Unfortunately that's one of the really hard things about events like these / cases.

I have heard some rumors from closer sources about the contents of video surveillance and her 9-1-1 call. As that information hasn't been made public and I'm not completely sure the rumors are reliable, I'll need a little time to consider how much I feel comfortable revealing. For now, I will say that there is supposedly very pertinent video evidence and what I was told about it makes me more confident that Gianni was not the shooter.

I was also told that there were no shots fired after the 9-1-1 call, and she apparently died from wounds she sustained before the call. Other details from the same account (if true) also lead me to believe that the car was already parked there at the time of the shooting.

That's great about helpful video!

I'd be a little surprised about more to her call based on what I heard that night as it happened, but that's good as well if she really shared more than what was heard or what dispatch was relaying from the get-go.

To be honest, part of what would surprise me about that is that (as I said in one of my earlier posts) although they obviously treated it as serious and acted on it immediately, it also didn't sound like they actually thought that was the case. Or, maybe the better way to put it, that someone was shot and it wasn't like "oops, playing with a new Christmas present and shot myself in the leg" type thing (we've had a number of "false" shootings, for lack of a better way to try to explain it). Like I said, not that that at all changed their response, but it definitely - at least to me - came across as genuine surprise at what they ended up finding.

What leads you to believe that Sal was a shooter? If it's the CoD sealing, I've concluded that what they were probably trying to hide was the time of death and the cause just went along with it. Apparently some sources had previously reported (most likely correctly) that he died before it was officially acknowledged, but they retracted.

(By the way, I'm just totally trying to figure out how this could have played out and how things fit - or don't - together! Not asking the questions I am below expecting you have answers Just my brain trying to work out possibilities)

I don't really think Salvatore was the shooter (though I think it's a possibility) I mean, I think there are a couple ways it's not entirely a ruled out possibilities, but even if he were, I still think there'd probably also have to be someone else involved.

I really don't think I can even figure out why he would be unless it was like a triangle type thing with two shooters OR if it was self-inflicted (and that is just b/c of the questions the CoD not being released raises for me)

Unless it were a case of him secretly really loving Ilona as well, and a "if I can't have her no one can" type of thing, though I'd think, then, that Gianni would have been found somewhere by now as well. And then, in which case, I'd think it'd have to have been a double murder-suicide to explain his death. Because I can't see him having killed her and then himself and Gianni not having resurfaced or found dead by now.

It's really that they've been so specific about CoD not being released that makes me think there's possibly something that isn't as it seems, since otherwise it'd just be GSW it'd seem.

Like you said, with some having reported (in print - didn't hear it on air, but also haven't heard each broadcast so could have missed it) his death earlier - at least one source said Thursday - and then recanted it after then it was said that both were sealed, that has raised more questions for people.

And while yes, the ToD seems tied to the donation bit of it, even that sort of seems odd to me.

I mean, why not say that he was an organ donor and thus that played in it? I think that would have made the public rally even more and want even more to try to find out what happened and see justice happen for the victims.

Besides, what would really change if the real ToD was known now? The only thing I can think of is the possibility of them thinking that would 'lure' the shooter out for some reason, though I'm not sure what that would be either.

I'm not sure there would be any details that only the killer would know that would allow them to be sure it was him (whoever that is) and not someone taking the fall, at least in this case. It's not like they could have been there for hours so the timeline could possibly be very off, and they've been very specific about the location of the wounds and them being shot, so I can't see what cause there could be beside that that would be sealed since that seems so straightforward.

I'm not so sure about this new story from the uncle. It's hard to believe that he would run from everyone this long out of shock or fear. I would like to know if there's a reason why they reported that he may be in Utah, beyond his obvious ties to this area. I have not even heard rumors or conjecture from people I know suggesting that he's hiding somewhere around here.

Yeah, that's definitely my issue with that scenario. It'd just seem to be additionally cruel!

The only way that I can make the Uncle's story click logically for me is if Gianni did witness the murder of Ilona and Sal at the mall, panicked and drove away, but was pursued by the shooter and killed or kidnapped elsewhere. It's hard to know how people would act in heinous situations, but I unfortunately can't imagine that he would choose to disappear like this (especially as a mere witness).

Definitely true!

Another possibility that I don't believe has been mentioned here is that Gianni could have been nabbed and used as bait to draw Sal and Ilona to the mall where they could be executed. Presumably in such a scenario, someone would be seeking to cause as much pain to the Belvedere family as possible. This scenario would also undoubtedly mean that someone in the family has found themselves in deep **** with very bad people, and I personally don't know of any evidence to suggest that (beyond being Italian, which is not the kind of extraordinary evidence I'd need to confirm such extraordinary ideas).

Interesting thought about Gianni being used as bait.

I wondered about the possibility of there being a reason the family was targeted (and with Ilona essentially being part of it so long, her being part of them basically for ages now) but, like you said, that seems like a reach as well.

Do you think there's any possibility of one of them having an issue with drugs? Or gambling? Or...something? As in something where money could have been owed to someone else or having gotten involved with some bad people and this has been the result? (I guess meaning more one of the three - more than family members beyond that)

Did you see the post from LB on Salvatore's FB like 14 months ago? Do you have any thoughts on that? Media hasn't missed out on having seen that, despite the fact that it's since been removed, which means it's been seen pretty widely.

I do think it's good news that they clearly thought the person seen today might have been Gianni.

If there were additional evidence we don't know about indicating he was dead, I don't think they'd have jumped - especially THAT quickly - on it. I guess it could mean they truly don't know his whereabouts or if he may also be a victim, but I suspect they at least know at least some on either or both of those possibilities.

 

[lynxofsd]

This is a very sad, confusing scenario. IMO, LE is keeping a lot of information close to the vest on this case that makes it difficult to analyze. Was this a execution by someone outside of the family, or the work of Gianni's hand alone?

Surveillance video may contain a lot of information about this crime, or lack specifics. Either way, LE isn't talking about what they have seen.

The fact that Ilona didn't mention anything about her assailant or Salvatore's wounds doesn't necessarily mean she didn't know who shot them. Given the nature of her injuries, she may have had little cognitive ability (or opportunity) to say more.

Gianni's silence is very worrisome.

 

[CuriousFriend]

Unfortunately that's one of the really hard things about events like these / cases.

Indeed. I hope that I don't ever come off as overly defensive or dismissive. It's admittedly hard for me to look at every scenario completely objectively (particularly ones involving Gianni as the killer, or Ilona as a cheater) when my current perception of Gianni/Ilona's character and relationships with each other and his family is not one that could fathomably involve killing anyone, particularly the two people that I believe were closest to him.

But I am continually grateful for the respect and depth of thinking that has been displayed in this thread. Some of the basic details have proven to be fertile ground for rash judgments (e.g. woman with fiancé's brother = love triangle). I'm not saying that any possibilities should be disregarded, but some strangers on local news comment boards feel that it's somehow helpful to read a headline and instantly proclaim that people are philanderers and murderers. I hope that their families are not torturing themselves by dwelling on the accusations of people who can't bother to concern themselves with the more complicated details of the case before making judgments.

That's great about helpful video!

Indeed. I'd really like to share the entirety of what I was told, but I feel constrained for at least two big reasons. First: someone chose to share seemingly privileged information with me, and I don't want to betray their trust if they expect me to remain tightlipped.

Second: I'm the type that favors what you could reasonably call "radical transparency" in regards to both governance and police investigations. Nevertheless, LE and the families haven't gone public with everything they know, and I shouldn't discount the possibility that I'm simply ignorant of the legitimate reasons for their restraint.

I'd be a little surprised about more to her call based on what I heard that night as it happened, but that's good as well if she really shared more than what was heard or what dispatch was relaying from the get-go.

I hope the way I phrased things wasn't misleading. I actually wasn't told anything new about what she said on the 9-1-1 call, your knowledge what she said in the call undoubtedly still surpasses mine.

What I meant is that the person I spoke to was quite definitive about the timing of the 9-1-1 call and the gunfire, i.e. that all shots were fired prior to her call and she simply succumbed to her existing injuries. Granted it's remarkable that she would be able to make a useful emergency call in that condition (especially calmly), but my understanding is that the video should disprove any ideas about two significantly-separated shootings.

I don't really think Salvatore was the shooter (though I think it's a possibility) I mean, I think there are a couple ways it's not entirely a ruled out possibilities, but even if he were, I still think there'd probably also have to be someone else involved.

I really don't think I can even figure out why he would be unless it was like a triangle type thing with two shooters OR if it was self-inflicted (and that is just b/c of the questions the CoD not being released raises for me)

Based on the evidence that's available and what I've been told: I currently believe that the case is simpler than those scenarios.

Perhaps my adaptation (Gianni being pursued and killed, not simply running and getting away) of the uncle's story is what seems most plausible to me at this point. Though that story still depends on circumstances that I haven't been able to verify and others that don't seem like the most likely decisions (taking two cars, Ilona riding with Sal instead of Gianni, etc.).

My other scenario involving Gianni as kidnapped bait doesn't seem to involve as many peculiar decisions, but I don't know if I'm imagining this as more complex and movie-like (there's also a plotline involving a vaguely similar baiting technique in the show Breaking Bad) than it really is. It could also be debunked if it's proven that Gianni was really just shopping.

Besides, what would really change if the real ToD was known now? The only thing I can think of is the possibility of them thinking that would 'lure' the shooter out for some reason, though I'm not sure what that would be either.

That's another open question of mine. I can't think of any strong motives for keeping that a secret, especially when LE didn't feel compelled to hide/delay reports of Ilona's death. Asking agencies to retract accurate reports about Sal's death is a lot of effort that doesn't seem to have clear advantages I can think of.

Part of my fondness for transparency stems from the avoidance of puzzling or misleading situations in which things are seemingly unnecessarily hidden.

Yeah, that's definitely my issue with that scenario. It'd just seem to be additionally cruel!

Unfortunately that's what makes it so hard to be optimistic about Gianni's present condition. I don't think cruelty is in his nature, and that belief excludes both the possibility of him running out of fear and murdering anyone. That leaves very few remaining scenarios, of which the most probable seems to be that he is dead.

The only remotely appealing possibility that I can think of is that he was kidnapped and will be returned alive and well. I wish this seemed at all likely.

So basically his loved ones have been forced into the perverse situation of hoping that Gianni is innocent and dead, instead of murderous and alive. I know the former is a more appealing prospect to me anyways. If it is ever proven that someone who I thought was particularly admirable became the murderer of his own brother and fiancé... the consequences for my faith in humanity will not be positive.

Do you think there's any possibility of one of them having an issue with drugs? Or gambling? Or...something? As in something where money could have been owed to someone else or having gotten involved with some bad people and this has been the result? (I guess meaning more one of the three - more than family members beyond that)

I don't know enough about his family to be the best source for this. I very highly doubt that either Ilona or Gianni developed any serious drug addictions after moving to San Diego, they're too smart and responsible. I don't know a lot about Sal, but many of the sentiments about him that I've heard are similar to what I've said about Ilona/Gianni- so it also seems improbable that he would become so indebted to shady characters that they would feel that three murders are necessary.

His family used to own a delicious Italian restaurant in this area that they closed in 2009. I have heard rumors that his father also lost some real estate prior to that. I don't have time to research that at the moment, but some online sleuthing may be able to confirm that and find additional details. So perhaps someone could determine if his father or any other family members were put into a financially desperate situation. Even if that was the case, without knowing them I wouldn't want to jump to the conclusion that they would turn to organized crime or other shady enterprises during hard times. Finding evidence of that would prove substantially more difficult.

Did you see the post from LB on Salvatore's FB like 14 months ago? Do you have any thoughts on that? Media hasn't missed out on having seen that, despite the fact that it's since been removed, which means it's been seen pretty widely.

I only heard about that from this thread. Again, since I never met Sal (and I'm not Facebook friends with him), I don't think I have any useful insights about that. It seems like something that could easily arise from a perfectly innocent inside joke or something though. My guess is that it's insignificant, but my guess is no better than yours on that one.

 

[TravelingBug]

CuriousFriend, just wanted to tell you again I'm sorry that you're here under these circumstances, yet at the same time I'm glad that you're here (if that makes sense?)

I hope that even after this comes to some sort of conclusion, that you'll stick around here on WS!

 

[SilkySifaka]

This is a very sad, confusing scenario. IMO, LE is keeping a lot of information close to the vest on this case that makes it difficult to analyze. Was this a execution by someone outside of the family, or the work of Gianni's hand alone?

Surveillance video may contain a lot of information about this crime, or lack specifics. Either way, LE isn't talking about what they have seen.

The fact that Ilona didn't mention anything about her assailant or Salvatore's wounds doesn't necessarily mean she didn't know who shot them. Given the nature of her injuries, she may have had little cognitive ability (or opportunity) to say more.

Gianni's silence is very worrisome.

I think some LE just like to keep it all sealed for the sake of it not because it means anything if it gets out publicly. I no longer expect any surprises when things become unsealed, its just LE's ego that no one should know anything that happens with the investigation because of "course" the public can't help.

I have always thought what she said and didn't say had to do with shock as well as injury

 

[missingm]

I think some LE just like to keep it all sealed for the sake of it not because it means anything if it gets out publicly. I no longer expect any surprises when things become unsealed, its just LE's ego that no one should know anything that happens with the investigation because of "course" the public can't help.

I have always thought what she said and didn't say had to do with shock as well as injury

I agree with you in that her injuries likely limited what she could say.

As far as LE sealing the medical report, I think it is just to keep the direction / entry of the bullets or any secondary wounds that only the shooter would know about. The two shots seem to be almost execution style, while any secondary wounds could indicate some "passion" could be involved.

About the other car: Didn't the relative say that GLB borrowed a relative's car to go to the mall, but isn't his car listed as the missing vehicle? Or am I wrong on that?:waitasec:

 

[kimmypie1]

I'm thinking it is a possibility that they went to the mall earlier then went to one of the nearby restaraunts like the Tilted Kilt or the new Buffalo Wild Wings. They spent time there, maybe had a few drinks and what happened to them was a direct result of something that transpired there. That could explain why Ilona did not know where she was when she was shot. Maybe she arrived with G but went to leave with S and in the dark wasn't sure where exactly the car was.