CA CA - Hugues de la Plaza, 36, San Francisco, 2 June 2007

[thesaint]

Also, if they have an unknown DNA sample from Hugues watch, can't they at least determine from that DNA general things like gender/approximate race of the contributor of the 2nd DNA?


Or is the sample too small to profile but enough to know it's DNA?

The French investigators looked kinda silly at the end. It looked like the French brought in 8 investigators, interviewed 50+ people and issued a 2,000 page report only to conclude: it was a homicide. Gee, thanks. Heck, the SFPD has always considered it a homicide investigation and they still do. They just don't have any leads. And neither do the French investigators. Or Murphy the private investigator.

the SFPD definitely dropped the ball on the initial investigation--why not review every surveillance tape for 1 am to 4 am in a 5 block radius of the scene? Start with 2 am to 3 am and work back and forward from there.

 

[thesaint]

Focusing on the patrons at and people hanging around outside Underground SF seems like a good approach.

According to the report, Hugues leaves that club at approximately 1:45, walks home (about 3/4ths a mile away) and then makes something to eat (maybe microwaved leftovers), surfs the web a bit and is dead by 2:37--less than an hour after leaving the club.

Figure 10 to 15 minutes to walk home, so he's home at 2 am. 5 to 10 minutes to prepare something to eat...seems almost impossible that the perpetrator was someone whom Hugues connected with online(either directly or indirectly (the jealous husband/bf angle)) in the limited time between 2:10 am and his attack and death just over 20 minutes later.

The woman or her husband would've had to have been living close by, maybe on their computer waiting for Hugues to log on and summon them and just sitting around, knife at the ready.

More likely is that Hugues ran into someone at the club--either a current/old dealer or maybe someone who knew Hugues and also knew the dealer--and the connection and plan for the dealer to come by was arranged either at or just outside the club.

Or if it's a jealous bf/husband, they were either at or aware that Hugues was at the club and they were aware of when he left.

I think the police or other investigators would've nailed anyone who did this who was prompted to come to Hugues apt by Hugues internet activity--that stuff is tracked and logged too well.

 

[Shutterfly]

Steely I'm going to help out if it's okay with you. I got interested, just as you did. I'm watching this video for the third time. Something is NOT right. I've put together a partial of crime scene photo's. I'm still pulling them off the video. Here they are...

http://s988.photobucket.com/albums/af1/WebsleuthsCommunityAlbums/LaPlaza/

 

[Steely Dan]

How do you know that there was no blood trail? the way that this whole case has been misconducted, it would not suprise me if they did not even look for blood or any trail further from his dwelling.


Please " this is more for other people to read" who are these other people Steely Dan?

People reading the thread. I'm making a point to her theory and I don't want her or others to think it's an attack on her personally.

They were incompetent in their investigation but I think somebody would have mentioned the blood trail up the street, Nix, the father, the friend or the PI etc... as I said in the original post. JMO

 

[Steely Dan]

Steely I'm going to help out if it's okay with you. I got interested, just as you did. I'm watching this video for the third time. Something is NOT right. I've put together a partial of crime scene photo's. I'm still pulling them off the video. Here they are...

http://s988.photobucket.com/albums/af1/WebsleuthsCommunityAlbums/LaPlaza/

You rock! :rocker:

When you look at the pictures it really helps out. It appears the blood goes no further than the second step from the top, except a little on the third step that looks like it just fell there.

If someone knifed him there it would seem that they would've gotten bloody too. Enough, IMO, to leave some more blood on the steps.

Also in picture 12 there is a little trail of blood leading up to the cabinets under the sink. :waitasec: I wonder what that's about.

There's a little blood by the banister. Did that come from oog leaning over after being stabbed or did it come from the killer? IIRC, the blood spatter expert said the outside walls showed a spatter pattern from an assailant. I think he meant from the front steps. :waitasec:

 

[Steely Dan]

I don't see anything about silverware in the transcript. Can somebody tell me where that comes from. Maybe I'm missing it. :waitasec:

 

[Shutterfly]

You rock! :rocker:

When you look at the pictures it really helps out. It appears the blood goes no further than the second step from the top, except a little on the third step that looks like it just fell there.

If someone knifed him there it would seem that they would've gotten bloody too. Enough, IMO, to leave some more blood on the steps.

Also in picture 12 there is a little trail of blood leading up to the cabinets under the sink. :waitasec: I wonder what that's about.

There's a little blood by the banister. Did that come from oog leaning over after being stabbed or did it come from the killer? IIRC, the blood spatter expert said the outside walls showed a spatter pattern from an assailant. I think he meant from the front steps. :waitasec:

Steely I'm wondering if there is any possibility that the bike sitting to the right if you're facing the porch was Hugues? It was said by the friend he'd made plans to go riding the next day before he left the bar. I'm wondering if he heard someone outside messing with his bike, so he went out to investigate, and wound up ambushed.

Look at this picture. It got kinda sucky when I snipped from the video but it looks like blood on this brick wall in two area's and what appears to be a lone blood drop on the sidewalk directly below.

For reference here's another view of the whole scene, to show you where this brick wall is.....

the brick wall is part of the next building, far right? And there's that bike.

 

[Steely Dan]

Steely I'm wondering if there is any possibility that the bike sitting to the right if you're facing the porch was Hugues? It was said by the friend he'd made plans to go riding the next day before he left the bar. I'm wondering if he heard someone outside messing with his bike, so he went out to investigate, and wound up ambushed.

Look at this picture. It got kinda sucky when I snipped from the video but it looks like blood on this brick wall in two area's and what appears to be a lone blood drop on the sidewalk directly below.

For reference here's another view of the whole scene, to show you where this brick wall is.....

the brick wall is part of the next building, far right? And there's that bike.

That's a great theory it's possible that it happened this way, IMO. Oog runs out to stop the guy and gets the smallest wound. He runs to the steps and it might be possible that he grabbed the railing and jumped over it to get away faster but falls down on the second step. While jumping he leaves the little bit of blood spatter on the ground but the guy catches him and spins him around on the second step and stabs him, slits his throat and runs away. Oog goes to his apartment and locks the door so the guy can't get him and the rest is what the apartment looked like.

I like that theory. I doubt the SFPD looked at the bike to see if somebody had effed with the locks. :waitasec:

The only problem I see is why didn't it show up on the video tape? BTW, one thing that bothers me about the video tape is that nothing shows up on it, supposedly, but Oog was out there, the blood proves it. So why didn't it get anything? :waitasec: That's what makes my hinky meter go off about the tape.

I wonder if the tape is dated wrong and the correct tape is either the day before or the day after.

BTW, when you get more pictures up let us know, thanks.

 

[Nikki_2]

Hello guys!

I have some questions I hope someone might be able to answer for me...

1. Where was Michelle when this crime was committed? (Has it been confirmed by cell pings, etc.)

2. Who told her it happened, how did they tell her, what was the date and time that they told her?

3. When did she arrive, how did she arrive - in detail (flight info, etc.), and where did she first go to when she arrived, then where did she stay after she got there?

4. Was a handwriting analysis done on the note left by the laptop?

5. Has the dna been compared to Michelle's?

6. Who was his last call to/from? When was his last call to or from Michelle?

7. What were her calls like to and from him, have her cell phone records been investigated?

8. What did the compuer forensics find?

9. Did I miss something???

She stated it was a crime of passion, it was well known by all the friends the back door was always left unlocked, it would have been easy to lock the back door after one left, it was obvious the killer took the weapon with them (while smiling two times I watched her say it mind you), and there was no way it was suicide. She immediatly called the investigators and crime reporters to plant them with a seed of suicide, she then is the first to call the parents. She appears to be mocking the LE and everyone for not figuring this crime out. Has she immortalized him and her by attaching herself to him eternally and attaching herself to his family as they emnbrace her as they would not have before as they were broke up. Someone also took an expensive silverware set from the apartment - how odd they left a new laptop, cell phone and other expensive items and took something very personal like silverware. To remember a dinner shared maybe?

Just a few rambling thoughts... I would LOVE some feedback! Thanks!

Everything I stated is my opinion only and I am not making any allegations, just stating some curiosities and questions.

This is where I read in regards to the silverware, and if this is correct it is something to think about. I know it might sound trivial, but if these things were stolen beforehand, could it be because someone knew he was going to die?

 

[Shutterfly]

That's a great theory it's possible that it happened this way, IMO. Oog runs out to stop the guy and gets the smallest wound. He runs to the steps and it might be possible that he grabbed the railing and jumped over it to get away faster but falls down on the second step. While jumping he leaves the little bit of blood spatter on the ground but the guy catches him and spins him around on the second step and stabs him, slits his throat and runs away. Oog goes to his apartment and locks the door so the guy can't get him and the rest is what the apartment looked like.

I lean toward involvement of the bike also because the neighbor who heard all of these thuds, feet and the opening and closing of doors, never claimed to hear voices, either friendly or otherwise. This tells ME Oog walked up on something he wasn't a part of. He had to have heard something and gone to see what it was. If he was on the laptop, I see his cords are all in the living room. I'd assume he was right there by the window where that bike was sitting.

I like that theory. I doubt the SFPD looked at the bike to see if somebody had effed with the locks. :waitasec:

The only problem I see is why didn't it show up on the video tape? BTW, one thing that bothers me about the video tape is that nothing shows up on it, supposedly, but Oog was out there, the blood proves it. So why didn't it get anything? :waitasec: That's what makes my hinky meter go off about the tape.

I wonder if the tape is dated wrong and the correct tape is either the day before or the day after.

BTW, when you get more pictures up let us know, thanks.

Here's the video of Oog... or what Ms. Nix claims is Oog....

Here's more footage from the same camera at about 5:30 am....

Now here's video of LE taken from what I assume is the same camera......

We get nothing in any of these but sidewalk, no porch. It's hidden by the edge of the building where the camera's (yes, there are two) are mounted....here....

In the shot that exists of Oog coming home, we see him for a fraction of a second and then he's gone. He's a blip, that's it. This tells me, along with the poor quality of the video, that this security cam wasn't even capable of 3 fps. I believe these camera's, unfortunately, just missed whatever happened. All I can see is the front half of the wheel of the bike and that DAMN tree is blocking the rest of the view.

Here's an image from Google that is most likely taken in the same time frame because Google images tend to be about two years old......

If someone came in in this direction, after that bike, based on what I see of the security cam, we may not have seen them. Then it's possible that they just happened to pounce on Oog by the bike and/or at the porch, and remained out of view of that 3fps.

The camera we're seeing from is the one mounted on the left. Most of these older (2007 model) camera's do UP TO 3 fps unless you spent a fortune in 2007, and more than likely less than that if this camera had some age on it. Considering that it took crappy night shots it would shock me if it took 3fps. Night time would be your prime time to need security?!? Not only does 3 fps give plenty of time for someone to scoot in and out of view, but based on positioning it looks to me as though this camera didn't get right at Oog's apartment. I'd say whoever nailed him came from the other direction and left the same way. There's an alcove next to where the bike sat. There's a doorway there that leads to the rear of Oog's property and housed utility boxes such as power and trash bins. That provides a thief a place to hide where he's shielded from the road. It would just make sense to come in after the bike from the other direction.

All the blood drops in the house, circular ones, make it appear as though he wasn't bleeding as severely in the beginning and possibly didn't realize how badly hurt he was. I see him traveling around the apartment, opening cabinets and such, looking for something to stop the bleeding. All the while dripping blood on the floor and walking in it. This would explain why he didn't call 911. He didn't realize that he was fatally injured until it was too late. Three drinks, a long day, and most people say of gun shot wounds "I didn't even realize I was shot." It's sad, but it looks to me as though he kept going down in the living room and kept trying to get back up, knocking things over in the process, fighting it before he finally bled out.

I don't know what make and model the bike was, but my guess is for a single guy who did what Oog did for a living, that's where the majority of his money went, in his "hotrod." I'm betting she was a 'spensive lil hotrod too. I guess hoping that they fingerprinted the bike is a stupid question. I think we need to track down Oog's date of birth and hand that over to the Astro's. See what they come up with. Can't hurt, right?
There's more pics for you Steely. I'm still pulling them off the video and elsewhere off of the internet...

http://s988.photobucket.com/albums/af1/WebsleuthsCommunityAlbums/LaPlaza/

ETA: June 11th, 1970 was Oog's DOB.

 

[Shutterfly]

Steely I've posted a request in the Astrology forum for their insight into Oog's case.....

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Forensic Astrology - CASE REQUESTS only

 

[WHITEFANG]

Melissa contacted the detective by 9:30 a.m. June 4, two days after his body was found. She was on the east coast when she discovered he had been slain.
How did Melissa find out so soon? Who knew where she was? She said she was not involved with his friends at that time.
The ME and Casillas confirm she raised the issue of suicide.
She called it a crime of passion. I agree. He was the love of her life. After they were "broken-up" for about 3 years, they tried to make it work again, but couldn't. Most of that time, she was attending graduate school in Berkley, where he was living, as well.
I cannot imagine that she accepted his interest in other females without suffering tremendous hurt and anger, even to the point of uncontrollable rage.
To remove oneself from consideration as a possible suspect, create an alibi and then lead a crusade to find justice for the victim.
If she would simply verify the answer to one question, "Melissa, how did you learn of this crime?

 

[Steely Dan]

Here's another article with some interesting things I hadn't heard before;

Homicide or suicide? Man's death a mystery
Jaxon Van Derbeken, Chronicle Staff Writer
Tuesday, April 1, 2008

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/01/MN14VEVRK.DTL#ixzz0Y8PVxZGs

There was no suicide note. On a notepad, however, someone had written two sentences: "Learn as if you were to live forever," and, "Live as if you were to die tomorrow."

______________________________

Nix said Goudet took some basic investigatory actions that police had failed to perform, such as looking at what de la Plaza was doing on his computer before someone yanked the cord at 2:38 a.m.

"If not for Goudet, Hugues' laptop would still sit untouched," Nix said in her complaint to the city. "Homicide told Goudet they could not break into it. ... Four months after the murder, Goudet received permission from SFPD to bring two (computer) professionals - on the French government's dime - to break into the drive." WTF!!!!!

_______________________________

Goudet also was the first investigator to check de la Plaza's cell phone to determine whether he had sent or received calls or text messages that might help explain how he died, Nix said.

_______________________________

And he was making long-term plans as well, talking of a move to Argentina in three months.

_______________________________

The SFPD didn't drop the ball on this one. They dropped it stomped on it til all of the air was out of it and then buried it somewhere nobody will find it. :furious:

 

[Steely Dan]

Another article on this case;


French findings in mysterious S.F. death
Jaxon Van Derbeken, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, February 27, 2009

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/02/27/BAUP165QSD.DTL#ixzz0Y8V5tNOY

De la Plaza's father, Francois de la Plaza, speaking through a translator, said at a press conference Thursday on the steps of San Francisco City Hall that French forensic experts had concluded that the stabbing must have happened outside the apartment on Linden Street.

______________________________

He said that was based on the amount of blood found at the scene. San Francisco police have said security cameras located near the building did not record an attack, but that the cameras also did not provide full, constant coverage.


______________________________

He said San Francisco police had told him soon after his son died that they were split on whether it was a homicide or suicide.

Inspector Antonio Casillas told him something "very surprising," he said. "He said, 'Until I see the person who confesses to this crime, I will rule this is a suicide.' "

______________________________

This is the first time I've heard the cameras don't provide full and constant coverage. :waitasec:

 

[Steely Dan]

Here's another article;


New look at S.F. stabbing leans toward suicide
Jaxon Van Derbeken, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, September 18, 2009

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/09/18/MNQP19OM5F.DTL#ixzz0Y8XVWIFf

"After consulting with numerous investigators, the LAPD team is leaning toward the conclusion that this may be a suicide," Lt. Mike Stasko, head of the San Francisco police homicide detail, said Thursday. "This has also been reviewed by their CSI (crime scene investigations) personnel."

_____________________________________

As for how de la Plaza was stabbed, that may never be resolved. "We have three knives, but we can't positively say this was the knife used," Stasko said.

Investigators have theorized that de la Plaza washed the knife as he bled to death.

_____________________________________

Azar said she has done an extensive review of unusual deaths, including one case in which a man stabbed himself, washed the knife, put it away, changed his clothes twice, then sat down for dinner with an aunt before he collapsed.

_____________________________________

There are several indications that de la Plaza killed himself, Azar said. She pointed out that de la Plaza had made no apparent effort to call 911, that blood-stain patterns showed that he had walked around after being stabbed, and that there had been no sign of a struggle.

_____________________________________

I had never heard of the three knives. I've only heard of one. Also Azar says there are no signs of a struggle and yet the French police say a bruise on his body is as defensive wound. :waitasec:

One other thing is that I've learned, from watching numerous Forensic Files, is that even after washing, blood residue can be found a lot of the time. :waitasec:

 

[Shutterfly]

This bothers me....

Something about this seems contradictory. I'm guessing Oog had very little of what was on this plate in his belly. I see what he was most likely using to lid this pot (small though it is, I don't see a 5 quart lid anywhere)..and it's on the counter, not on the pot. I see the spoon he used to stir the food, a table spoon. I see a plate FULL of food, with the fork on the side of the plate. In the pot I see food that's piled on one side of the pot as though it's just been tilted to shovel food from the pot to the plate. I see someone who was fixing his midnight snack, not someone who was sitting in the livingroom in front of his laptop. Doesn't look like he was expecting someone to me, it looks like he was getting ready to make his way to the livingroom or wherever he typically ate, with this plate. And then someone unexpectedly knocked on his door?

If he was on the security cam at 2:06 am, and the murder happened at 2:38 when the neighbor heard the noises..that leaves 32 minutes for "something" to happen. Provided this wasn't a foiled motorcycle robbery attempt, how would whoever did this know he was at home? How did they know he would be awake, alone, and would answer the door? How did they know he would come to the door at all for them....or that he would come outside?

Maybe this wasn't so random. What if it was someone who knew his habits and was just waiting for the right opportunity....and this was it? Maybe it was someone who was at the bar. So maybe they knew when he left on foot, and they gave him a good 45 minutes because A; they didn't want it to be obvious they'd just left the bar too and B; because they didn't know exactly how long the walk would take? If they planned to do this, they would have to know he'd be alone.

You have to watch the 48 Hours Mystery show, but if you do, you notice a car ( I think it's white) that went by at 2:37am IIRC. I'll try to pull a screen shot off of it later and add it to this post. Odd timing, for a darkened, deserted street. In the rest of the video beteen that time and all the way up until LE got there, no more cars appear to have gone by. One car....within a minute of the 2:38 am mark? Coincidence?

 

[thesaint]

This bothers me....

If he was on the security cam at 2:06 am, and the murder happened at 2:38 when the neighbor heard the noises..that leaves 32 minutes for "something" to happen. Provided this wasn't a foiled motorcycle robbery attempt, how would whoever did this know he was at home? How did they know he would be awake, alone, and would answer the door? How did they know he would come to the door at all for them....or that he would come outside?

Maybe this wasn't so random.

I agree with that general line of thinking:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing
Community - View Single Post - 11/14/2009 48 Hours Mystery-Transcript Included

Between the various theories being debunked by the investigators (suicide or a jealous bf or husband), and the unlikelihood of Hugues opening his door for a random street hood from the nearby projects...it leads down the path of this being some sort of drug transaction gone bad.

Hugues somehow made contact with someone while at the club. It could've been face to face contact ("hey, meet me at my place after this with the goods?") or a text or phone call (apparently the SFPD didn't pull Hugues texts in time?) or Hugues could've used a pay phone etc.

So Hugues decides he wants to keep the party going after the club and decides to score something to facilitate that.

If he's not a regular user (and it doesn't seem like he was) it's possible he had called an old dealer who had some reason to stab and possibly rob Hugues. No signs of robbery you say? Hugues would've answered the door for the drug deal with the cash in hand, which he could've had in his apartment for weeks or whatever, and initially handed the money to the other person.

It's also possible that a casual user like Hugues might have been had never had a regular hook up but piggybacked on another user's connection. And maybe Hugues hadn't gotten anything from that other user in a while and wasn't aware of their status.

Let's say the other user had fallen on hard times and was having trouble scraping together the cash to feed their own habit. Hugues calls late on a Friday night, they are jonesing but are no longer able to get their own product because of lack of cash and dealers not trusting them.

So the other user-addict tells Hugues he'll meet him later with the goods--he (or she) has to go to get it--and tells Hugues to have the cash ready when he arrives.

Hugues answers the door, hands over a few hundred or whatever, the other person acts as tho they are reaching for the product and instead procures a knife and stab-stab-stab.

That might've also been a reason for Hugues not to call out for help or to immediately dial 911--he had been involved in a drug deal gone bad and didn't want to jeopardize his job etc.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Who had the motive to kill Hugues? What drove his killer to his apartment in the middle of the night, seemingly without provocation to end his life? Revenge! He knew his killer. As a black belt, no one could have inflicted wounds like his unless he had allowed him/her in real close, inside his personal space. Three intimate, quick, powerful stabs unleashed; three sharp bursts of rage, from someone he trusted and it was finished. He knew how to defend himself, even from a surprise attack. But this was different. He was blindsided, by someone he trusted.

 

[thesaint]

Interesting, I did not catch that Hugues was a black belt. And he did have a defensive wound, perhaps he struck his attacker?

The recreation Hugues father did in the 48 hours segment looked like a v possible way of someone getting the drop on a black belt.

also, it's common in these underground music scenes for everyone to greet each other with a casual hug--even men. A light arm around back and heads over shoulders. Doesn't seem like that would've happened had they been on separate levels--Hugues on the landing, the murderer a step or two down.

And most all dealers don't drive "dirty". That is, due to the various 4th amendment distinctions among drivers, cars, parts of cars and passengers, they will have someone do their driving and keep the goods on their person, as unless they are visibly intoxicated or they get mouthy, the police aren't allowed to search them unless they first establish probable cause greater than the requirements for searching a driver or the vehicle.

So the idea of someone dropping the killer off and then circling around to wait for the person they dropped off in the back alley is consistent with the profile of a drug deal.

FWIW, I don't think anyone should judge dude because he MIGHT HAVE liked to party on the weekend. We don't know that he did or did not. This is just a theory and if ppl are unwilling to give it credence because "that wasn't Hugues" then they are making a mistake. I would doubt that, if Hugue enjoyed some narcotic fun on weekends, he kept it completely hidden from his friends. However, it's possible that he did keep it secret (if he did it at all). And if he did conceal it, then that makes it even more difficult to track down the killer.

I think that IF Hugues did party on weekends every now and then, he was likely somewhat open about it with his underground friends and that the key to solving Hugues murder lies with them.

 

[WHITEFANG]

A man was convicted of treason during the second French Revolutionary War and sentenced to die by guillotine in just two weeks. He was placed in a dungeon to await his execution without permission to have visitors. He was unable to sleep out of overwhelming fear of his inevitable rendezvous with the large, razor sharp blade. On the eve of his appointment with death, the prison guards had mercy on him and allowed his wife into the waiting room for a final farewell. They greeted each other, sat down and within a few moments he fell asleep on her lap from complete exhaustion. Sound asleep, he began to dream. As he did, a fly flew onto the back of his neck and his wife quickly and lightly swatted it off with the back of her hand. At that precise moment, he dreamed the guillotine came down, cut off his head and he died. According to the way this story has been told, it is impossible. Why? I share this little riddle with you for a reason which you will understand soon.
Please, if you know the answer, don't share it.