CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #14

[Force Ten]

After listening to the testimony below, I believe there would have been blood IMO If you don't want to watch it all, watch part 2 around 41:00, and the beginning of Part 3. McGee goes through all the skull fractures/impacts. She says which one's she would expect to see a laceration due to the force. IMO the chances that there would be no blood is pretty small, if it was just 1 victim, maybe, but with all 4, the chances that all 4 didn't bleed, I find that hard to believe, again, JMO. We have also heard from some of the detectives... Steers is one of them IIRC, that agreed, in his experience, he would have expected to see blood at the crime scene, which is why they went back to the Fallbrook house in 2014.

Dr Chanikarn Changsri - Chief Forensic Pathologist at Coroners office.

I don't think anyone is in disagreement that there would be blood. It seems a lot of people assume there would have been a bloodbath.

 

[Force Ten]

*BANGING HEAD* This is ridiculous! What trial takes a 2 week break?? Will watch for her updates on the hearing this morning.

Cathy Russon‏ @cathyrusson
#McStay - Court was supposed to be back in session tomorrow after over a week off, however a hearing was held this morning (I'll tweet those details in a moment), the only witness the defense had this week is Mike McStay and he will be short. Judge delays trial until April 3rd.

Oh holy hell.

 

[missy1974]

I don't think anyone is in disagreement that there would be blood. It seems a lot of people assume there would have been a bloodbath.

I don't disagree. I hate discussing the injuries, but after listening to Dr. C it is clear that the minimum (because she couldn't rule out how many blows were in certain areas) amount of blows would have caused pools of blood around at least Summer and Joey. It can be disputable about which blow came when and maybe the last blows would be the one's that could cause lacerations, but then Dr. C also said that they could have been alive for up to 60 minutes afterwards, which would mean they would still be able to bleed out. It's just my opinion after listening to her that it is very unlikely that there was no blood, and after seeing photo's of the home, I don't believe there was a clean up either. One of the reasons I don't believe it happened in the home, but again JMO

 

[mrjitty]

What do you mean, the Provecho nonsense is to remove his motive?

Yes I think the jail house tapes showed consciousness of guilt

An innocent defendant and ethical defence could make solid business arguments about the 19K. Instead Chase set out to fabricate evidence and mislead the Court that he was ever paid it. IMO it reveals the sensitivity of the matter.

 

[mrjitty]

I don't disagree. I hate discussing the injuries, but after listening to Dr. C it is clear that the minimum (because she couldn't rule out how many blows were in certain areas) amount of blows would have caused pools of blood around at least Summer and Joey. It can be disputable about which blow came when and maybe the last blows would be the one's that could cause lacerations, but then Dr. C also said that they could have been alive for up to 60 minutes afterwards, which would mean they would still be able to bleed out. It's just my opinion after listening to her that it is very unlikely that there was no blood, and after seeing photo's of the home, I don't believe there was a clean up either. One of the reasons I don't believe it happened in the home, but again JMO

What about the potential bleach stain on the carpet - that would be a classic pooling

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The defense's case is imploding.

Do they even have one? What happened to the sponge guy? Isnt he from that same area?

This has become so bizarre there simply are no words to describe it anymore.

So if they couldn't have MM to beat up on who do they have left?

 

[mrjitty]

If plastic was used or something over their heads, I would have expected to see that in the graves IMO.

Again its wild speculation, but if Joey was finally killed downstairs while he was already lying down, (broken leg) something small like a towel could easily have been placed over his head IMO. You'd get the pooled blood but that's it. IMO a bigger issue is how he'd move them without creating a blood trail. IMO that stuff was then left behind while he took the bodies away in his truck. Then he came back to clean up, which is why the towels etc are not in the graves. IMO that stuff just went in a dumpster.

I agree it is extremely problematic how he did it.

 

[missy1974]

What about the potential bleach stain on the carpet - that would be a classic pooling

this is classic pooling? (see attached - can also see things on top of the carpet and see that it's dirty) According to Denys Williams it is not consistent with what she has ever seen with bleach, bleach is a liquid and spreads. I don't know that this is bleach at all. I actually think it might be watery paint... listening to McG, he talked about the one day he was there that the kids painted the bumper of the truck with the paint water or something like that, it made me think that he had a pail or bucket of water to clean the brushes. IIRC McG said he was painting the front door at the time as well. I wish either side had asked him about that carpet and asked if some paint or whatever got on it the day he was there. JMO

 

[missy1974]

Do they even have one? What happened to the sponge guy? Isnt he from that same area?

This has become so bizarre there simply are no words to describe it anymore.

So if they couldn't have MM to beat up on who do they have left?

AGAIN, the delays are not just the defense witnesses. Choose to believe it or not, but the judge has said so lol

 

[missy1974]

Again its wild speculation, but if Joey was finally killed downstairs while he was already lying down, (broken leg) something small like a towel could easily have been placed over his head IMO. You'd get the pooled blood but that's it. IMO a bigger issue is how he'd move them without creating a blood trail. IMO that stuff was then left behind while he took the bodies away in his truck. Then he came back to clean up, which is why the towels etc are not in the graves. IMO that stuff just went in a dumpster.

I agree it is extremely problematic how he did it.

One thing that Dr. C also testified about is that not much blood would come out after they died. But with the time frame that the State is stuck with, and the question that the judge actually asked about how long it would have taken for them to die (which she said up to 60 minutes), I would have to think that "some" blood could be present in the vehicle used to trasport them, but maybe not a lot like McG has implied... not dripping out the back of the truck. I actually think there would be more of a transfer of the blood if they were moved hours later, from hair or clothes, etc. I would also have to wonder about dripping or smearing as they are being moved. (ugggh) I have even considered that he did it much later in the night than the State says... but that doesn't fit either IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I could believe that there was a clean up if the house wasn't dirty. But every room, in the pictures, there were clothes, newspapers, painters tape, etc. the floors were dirty. None of that showed signs of "blood". The bathroom... the bathtubs, and shower were dirty still. There was just no signs to me that there was a "clean up" done. Most photo's were taken after the family already did a bit of clean up... so investigators actually even went through the garbage and recycling bins as well. Still no signs of blood on anything. We learned that the new owners only painted the downstairs bathroom (which I believe was just a toilet/sink), so there was not a lot repainted between 2010 and 2014 when they went back. If plastic was used or something over their heads, I would have expected to see that in the graves IMO.

He could have tossed those items where he put their cell phones never to be found again.

I think he has buried many things in the desert besides 4 bodies.

Plus this monster had many days to clean up that most murders didn't have.

Since they received crushing inwardly injuries, I do think there may be some blood, but not a bloodbath like the defense wants the jury to believe.

I've seen several blunt force trauma cases where very little blood was found, and these were victims found in the home.

 

[Tortoise]

this is classic pooling? (see attached - can also see things on top of the carpet and see that it's dirty) According to Denys Williams it is not consistent with what she has ever seen with bleach, bleach is a liquid and spreads. I don't know that this is bleach at all. I actually think it might be watery paint... listening to McG, he talked about the one day he was there that the kids painted the bumper of the truck with the paint water or something like that, it made me think that he had a pail or bucket of water to clean the brushes. IIRC McG said he was painting the front door at the time as well. I wish either side had asked him about that carpet and asked if some paint or whatever got on it the day he was there. JMO

That picture to me is more proof that he used plastic containers to move the bodies. It looks to me like the outline of the end of a large plastic container about 2 feet wide judging by the footwear photographed next to it. And the bleached outline of a shoe print in the middle. Maybe a container was set down on the wet bathroom floor cleaned with bleach before he picked it up and carried it to the front door, and set it back down there on the carpet while he opened the front door.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/stain-on-carpet-jpg.176453/
JMO

 

[missy1974]

That picture to me is more proof that he used plastic containers to move the bodies. It looks to me like the outline of the end of a large plastic container about 2 feet wide judging by the footwear photographed next to it. And the bleached outline of a shoe print in the middle. Maybe a container was set down on the wet bathroom floor cleaned with bleach before he picked it up and carried it to the front door, and set it back down there on the carpet while he opened the front door.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/stain-on-carpet-jpg.176453/
JMO

have you looked at the photo's of the bathrooms? Those bathrooms were not cleaned with bleach IMO.

 

[Force Ten]

Again its wild speculation, but if Joey was finally killed downstairs while he was already lying down, (broken leg) something small like a towel could easily have been placed over his head IMO. You'd get the pooled blood but that's it. IMO a bigger issue is how he'd move them without creating a blood trail. IMO that stuff was then left behind while he took the bodies away in his truck. Then he came back to clean up, which is why the towels etc are not in the graves. IMO that stuff just went in a dumpster.

I agree it is extremely problematic how he did it.

I've found a lot cases of mass killings where there were survivors (many times, children), that without their accounts, how the murders happened would be confusing.

In this particular matter, the bodies were not only moved but completely out of the home and a hundred miles away. It's impossible to know exactly what happened, or where.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

One thing that Dr. C also testified about is that not much blood would come out after they died. But with the time frame that the State is stuck with, and the question that the judge actually asked about how long it would have taken for them to die (which she said up to 60 minutes), I would have to think that "some" blood could be present in the vehicle used to trasport them, but maybe not a lot like McG has implied... not dripping out the back of the truck. I actually think there would be more of a transfer of the blood if they were moved hours later, from hair or clothes, etc. I would also have to wonder about dripping or smearing as they are being moved. (ugggh) I have even considered that he did it much later in the night than the State says... but that doesn't fit either IMO

The problem with that even the expert is having to guess.

Imo I no more believe they all laid there for an hour before they died. Not with those injuries, I dont think the jury will believe it either.

They could have died shortly after their skulls were crushed from instantly dying or within seconds to 2 or 3 minutes.

Once the heart stops beating the blood stops flowing. It takes about 4 or 5 minutes for the blood to stop slowly seeping out depending on the size of each victim, and its not gushing out at a rapid pace because it has no force behind it anymore.

Imo

 

[mrjitty]

That picture to me is more proof that he used plastic containers to move the bodies. It looks to me like the outline of the end of a large plastic container about 2 feet wide judging by the footwear photographed next to it. And the bleached outline of a shoe print in the middle. Maybe a container was set down on the wet bathroom floor cleaned with bleach before he picked it up and carried it to the front door, and set it back down there on the carpet while he opened the front door.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/stain-on-carpet-jpg.176453/
JMO

*pure speculation*

IMO Chase is our guide in this case, because he is like the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain, manipulating counsel, without testifying.

When he tells us about a knife - its because he knows things only the killer knows, same as when he tells us he never saw Joey's last call (he didn't).

IMO when the defence points out all the dirt - this is a really good point - precisely because Chase knows how it went down - and it was otherwise.

 

[mrjitty]

I've found a lot cases of mass killings where there were survivors (many times, children), that without their accounts, how the murders happened would be confusing.

In this particular matter, the bodies were not only moved but completely out of the home and a hundred miles away. It's impossible to know exactly what happened, or where.

This is the same with Pistorius

He had only 10 mins approx to stage the crime scene - yet it is near impossible to put it back together again

 

[missy1974]

The problem with that even the expert is having to guess.

Imo I no more believe they all laid there for an hour before they died. Not with those injuries, I dont think the jury will believe it either.

They could have died shortly after their skulls were crushed from instantly dying or within seconds to 2 or 3 minutes.

Once the heart stops beating the blood stops flowing. It takes about 4 or 5 minutes for the blood to stop slowly seeping out depending on the size of each victim, and its not gushing out at a rapid pace because it has no force behind it anymore.

Imo

But this is not what the State expert witness, Dr. C, testified to and this is what the jury has as evidence.

 

[Tortoise]

have you looked at the photo's of the bathrooms? Those bathrooms were not cleaned with bleach IMO.

Are there close up photos of the bathroom floors?

 

[missy1974]

*pure speculation*

IMO Chase is our guide in this case, because he is like the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain, manipulating counsel, without testifying.

When he tells us about a knife - its because he knows things only the killer knows, same as when he tells us he never saw Joey's last call (he didn't).

IMO when the defence points out all the dirt - this is a really good point - precisely because Chase knows how it went down - and it was otherwise.

The autopsy report indicates that Summer's bra was cut off, and talks about an incision in the bra. IMO the defense keeps bringing up a "knife" because of Dan's 'confession' to his ex indicates that he said 'Held one of the boys at knife point to get the family out of the home'.

Just my opinion