CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #14

[smr]

I would imagine there were time constraints, and fear of getting caught. Dig 2 shallow graves quickly rather than one large one, and he would of needed a deeper one for all four victims.

So what would an inefficient digger have done?

 

[Karinna]

This is an interesting article and mentions the McStay family
(quote)
Murder in the Mojave: Homicides and Body Dumps in the California Desert
The desert's massive size and inhospitable conditions make it the perfect place to hide a body.
Murder in the Mojave: Homicides and Body Dumps in the California Desert

 

[katydid23]

I'm not sure about that. How do you know, from study? theory? experience?





What does Chase's using past tense prove?

I shouldn’t have said ‘all’ graves in desert are shallow

But many are because it is often hard to go deep because the ground below the top
Sandy soil is very hard and rock like because of the lack of water

 

[Karinna]

So what would an inefficient digger have done?

Probably just dump a body remotely and not bother digging? But in this case weren't the graves near the highway? I think that means the killer was in a hurry, but also to bury the victims so they would not be quickly found. The longer a murder victim is not found there is less chance of determining exact cause of COD and DNA is destroyed from other cases i have followed. There can also be interference by wildlife as well, as i think was determined in this case.

 

[smr]

But in this case weren't the graves near the highway? I think that means the killer was in a hurry, but also to bury the victims so they would not be quickly found.

Or perhaps because the killers were not very familiar with the area.

 

[Karinna]

Or perhaps because the killers were not very familiar with the area.

There is only one killer on Trial and charged with the murders and that is Chase Merritt. There are no other killers charged with this crime.

 

[Force Ten]

I think he may have driven it onto the vacant plot of land behind the house. The access to it was just around the corner in Avocado Vista. I've got pictures of it here, the bottom yellow arrow is the house, the top yellow arrow is the entrance to the land. The entrance to the land is what's shown in the second picture from google streetview.

click to enlarge
View attachment 177872 View attachment 177873

Or he parked it at the Nessie truck stop over the freeway.

 

[mrjitty]

As bad as Merritt's finances were all the time due to his gambling - I doubt he could afford a gun...and a sledgehammer is a tool he's familiar with (and probably owned) and it probably didn't immediately alarm the McStays if he walked into their home with it hanging from a toolbelt or something. I actually started following the McStay case a little later than most so I don't know if there has already been alot of research on the hammer used to murder the McStays. But I found the exact model online and it only costs $18.17 so that was probably something Merritt could afford. And it's interesting that it's referred to as a drilling hammer (per Wikipedia) and is used with a steel chisel for cutting stone or Metal (just another coicidence in this case.) It's also interesting to me that it's made for "single-handed" use....

Anyway, here's the actual hammer photo from trial:
CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #2

And you'll note it's a Stanley 3lb fiberglass jacketed handle hammer just like this one:
Stanley 56-705 3 Lbs. Hammer _Jacketed Fiberglass Handle | AceTool.com

I did some research a couple of months ago on profiling based on murder weapon

IIRC hammer is associated with a high degree of anger in the killer.

The weapon selection indicates an intention to control and terrorise.

 

[Force Ten]

1. I think the defense' point is that MM in his statement accurately described the graves long before the remains were found.

2. If CM was so efficient, you'd think he'd dig one deep grave instead of two shallow ones.

Not if he did two drops, there are two sets of tracks.

 

[Niner]

Thursday, April 4th:
*Trial continues (Day 36) (@ 9:30am PT) - CA - McStay Family: Joseph (40), Summer (43), Gianni (4) & Joey Jr (3) (Feb. 4, 2010, Fallbrook; found Nov. 11, 2013) - *Charles "Chase" Ray Merritt (53 @ time of crime/now 60 (61 on 5/2)) arrested (11/5/14) & indicted (11/7/14) of 4 counts of murder with special circumstance; plead not guilty. DP case.
Trial started 1/7/19. Dark on all Fridays. 12 jurors & 6 alternates were finalized on Tuesday (12/11/18). 8 women & 4 men, while the alternates include 4 men & 2 women.
See Trial Days 1 (1/7/19) thru Day 34 (3/19/19) reference post #309 here:
CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #14
3/20/19 Update: Judge and counsel only. Re Status hearing re Subpoena duces tecum (Microsoft). Trial continues with jurors on 4/3.
3/25/19: Motion Filed: Non-Party Microsoft Corporation's Motion To Quash Defendants Subpoena Duces Tecum; Declaration Of Amanda Murray In Support Of Non Party Microsoft Corporation; Motion To Quash Defendants Subpoena Duces Tecum. Will be heard on April 11.
3/26/19 Update: Today's hearing (6 mins long) dealing with defense response to subpoenas from state for interviews with Merritt conducted by documentary crew. Prosecutor Melissa Rodriguez said the defense filed an additional response "under seal", hearing delayed to April 11.
3/27/19 Update: Pros filed an additional motion (at some point I'm not sure when) to exclude some of the testing and testimony of Beasley, and Pros still has not received all of the discovery, defense can't respond to pros without knowing what his report is, he will put the footage on a thumb drive and give it to the pros, pros motion will be heard April 3rd pm. Jury will hear testimony in am.
4/3/19 Day 35: Jury only for am session. Defense witness: Mike McStay. Trial continues on 4/4.
Schedule for week of April 1st to 5th: DARK on April 1 (Monday) and April 2 (Tuesday). April 3 (Wednesday)-Morning session only for jurors. Afternoon session Motion hearing re testimony of Beasley. Court on April 4 (Thursday), DARK on April 5 (Friday).
Schedule for week of April 8th to 12th: Court on April 8 (Monday), April 9 (Tuesday), and April 10 (Wednesday). April 11 (Thursday)-NO jurors-Other hearing: Microsoft & Google Motion to Quash Defendants Subpoena Duces Tecum & Documentary crew interview w/Merritt. DARK on April 12 (Friday). Jurors informed they should have the case by end of April.


Do I have 4/3 correct - only Mike McStay was on witness stand. I did see Sgt. Ryan mentioned - did he take the stand again? I really don't have time to listen to the audios that were posted - following too many trials at the moment. Please correct me if I'm wrong on the above!
and what happened in the afternoon? without the jurors? TIA!

 

[mrjitty]

First question yes, second question no.

I think this was planned months before, whenever Joey started getting sick. I think CM was poisoning him to weaken him and I think his plan was to steal the business contracts as soon as he thought Dan was going to be paid off. Dan was the spanner in the works because he did not relinquish control.

I also have a feeling that this was maybe going to go down on the day he printed the first cheque, on the 2nd, but McGyver being there scuppered that plan.

So I think it was completely premeditated.

He was in and out too quickly with the four bodies for it to have not been planned with precision. He had a plan for containing the blood, where he would put them until he could bury them, for not having his phone on, he'd stolen the cheque stock.

I think the cheque at the house was also planned, maybe the printer mucked that up, how he would deal with the dogs, he probably had even purchased the big bag of dog food in advance, the window opened so he could come and go through the back without neighbors observing him, where to put the Trooper until he could take it to the border, the whole lot.

JMO

ETA Maybe even that's why he didn't care about slacking off work in the month before because he thought it was all coming back to him, he'd deal with Joey before Joey could deal with him.

I think you might be right mate.

The sociopathic personality often indulges in unrealistic / high risk fantasies.

The trigger point may come about via escalation, poor impulse control, or the house of cards collapsing.

In my own run in with a sociopath, the major showdown happened when I discovered quite by chance, a major deception the sociopath had been involved in.

The other thing these people do is intentionally engineer a crisis via some bad faith action because they feed off the emotions. "Winning" in those situations is part of the abusive cycle. However due to the highly unrealistic and risky nature of their fantasies, the sociopath may push the victim too far, then blame the victim for the crisis.

This is why, perhaps paradoxically, I believe Chase knew Joey would discover the theft. The deceptions are often child like and pathetic.

I believe Chase wanted to take everything that was Joey's - not just the business - to punish him.

 

[mrjitty]

I don’t underestimate them at all

I think they will notice a lot of the same things that I do.

I think i have said for a while now that this is a standard mudslinging defence rather than the promised DK did it defence.

They hope via all the smoke and mirrors, to generate a narrow strip of doubt, and then set sail in their closing to land precisely in that small harbour.

I think the strength of the case is actually the level of detail required in the evidence against Chase

I hope the prosecution are good at painting an easy to see "big picture" in closing as well as contesting the detail.

 

[mrjitty]

What does Chase's using past tense prove?

That according to his own internal frame of reference, he believed Joey was dead.

Use of tense is automatic. We don't think about which tense to use.

Why he thought Joey was dead is a legal inference a jury is entitled to make.

 

[mrjitty]

Or he parked it at the Nessie truck stop over the freeway.

I think he did something like this.

 

[Force Ten]

I think i have said for a while now that this is a standard mudslinging defence rather than the promised DK did it defence.

They hope via all the smoke and mirrors, to generate a narrow strip of doubt, and then set sail in their closing to land precisely in that small harbour.

I think the strength of the case is actually the level of detail required in the evidence against Chase

I hope the prosecution are good at painting an easy to see "big picture" in closing as well as contesting the detail.

It seems to that the defense's case is in trouble and they are grasping at anything. We still don't know if Dan or his GF will testify. I would think the if they had that they would not need Mike's testimony. They know their case is done.

 

[mrjitty]

I shouldn’t have said ‘all’ graves in desert are shallow

But many are because it is often hard to go deep because the ground below the top
Sandy soil is very hard and rock like because of the lack of water

We have this sandy soil on our land. Just over 1m or so down is a layer of so called "iron sand" - it has a black colour and it rock hard to dig through.

For my sins i have dug well over 100m of drainage trenches and a 4m concrete ringed soakaway in recent years.

I can certainly confirm that the going is much slower when you are standing in a narrow 1.5m deep "grave". Each shovel load is taken from under your own feet and must be elevated over your own head to clear the mounded earth at the pit sides. So not only far more work (in the physics definiton of the word) but awkward as in a narrow deep grave, your shovel can only extend on the long axis and up over your own head to the side.

And don't think a digger solves everything. Filling a deep hole by hand takes much longer than you think.

So it is much faster to dig a wide area than to go deep.

And it is why so many victims like Shan'ann Watts end up in shallow desert graves.

 

[mrjitty]

It seems to that the defense's case is in trouble and they are grasping at anything. We still don't know if Dan or his GF will testify. I would think the if they had that they would not need Mike's testimony. They know their case is done.

As you know I've always been pretty sceptical about calling Dan.

It opens up a primary witness on so most post crime stuff that could go horribly wrong.

e.g if Dan has a good alibi, what's to stop him sitting there and saying once he realised Joey was long term MIA he simply grabbed his chance to fly solo? But then detailing how much money Chase scammed? With Chase not testifying this seems hideously risky.

 

[Karinna]

About the missing laptop... So MM said he didn't take JM's laptop? But I remember a while ago Force Ten said MM took JM's laptop (as opposed to desktop).

Didn't Joseph McStay have more than one laptop? Didn't sources close to JM say he also owned a Hewlett-Packard?
The Dell laptop was listed in the San Diego Sheriff’s warrants as being in the kitchen. This is the one Mike removed from the home and later returned.

 

[asyousay]

To be honest Mike has always made a better suspect than DK in my eyes anyway.

He took a evidence out of the house and could of done anything to it before returning it. His mum cleaned up a crime scene and was told not to by a concerned friend but continued to do so. He did mention finding the bodies in shallow graves. He couldn’t actually remember when he went past the house which is strange as he even admitted he had issues with them because of a falling out with Summer so why was he driving past?


I think the CE does point towards Chase and he is probably guilty but Mike did some suspicious stuff.

 

[mrjitty]

To be honest Mike has always made a better suspect than DK in my eyes anyway.

He took a evidence out of the house and could of done anything to it before returning it. His mum cleaned up a crime scene and was told not to by a concerned friend but continued to do so. He did mention finding the bodies in shallow graves. He couldn’t actually remember when he went past the house which is strange as he even admitted he had issues with them because of a falling out with Summer so why was he driving past?


I think the CE does point towards Chase and he is probably guilty but Mike did some suspicious stuff.

The practical problem with these kinds of ideas is Mike likely had a solid alibi which is why he was discarded as a possible suspect