CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #15

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  • #421
Hi everyone. I used to post about this case here, from the beginning. I wasn't around for In Sessions, but I have been around since 2010. I do still think about this family and their tragedy.

Not sure if any of the other OGs are around. We had some intense discussions back in the day.
 
  • #422
Maybe Sheriff McMahon was initially correct...

Snip

Authorities identified the remains using dental records. At the time, San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon said the killings appeared to be "extremely orchestrated" and carried out by more than one person.

Suspect in McStay family killings arrested - CNN
From the article:
But after reviewing 4,500 pages of investigative records, executing 60 search warrants and conducting 200 interviews, investigators zeroed in on Merritt, concluding he had acted alone in killing the family in their own home, San Bernardino authorities said.

Also, still takes my breath away to see those photos of the family.
 
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  • #423
Hi everyone. I used to post about this case here, from the beginning. I wasn't around for In Sessions, but I have been around since 2010. I do still think about this family and their tragedy.

Not sure if any of the other OGs are around. We had some intense discussions back in the day.

Hey Dogwood, there are still a few of us old timers on here! Welcome back!
 
  • #424
Ok I went back and listened to Jone's DNA testimony. Day 20 Part 3 at about the 43 minute mark he starts reviewing the results of the Trooper:

The steering wheel had a mixture of 3 individuals:
Joseph McStay: Major contributor
CM: Minor Contributor
SM: Trace contributor

Summer's DNA was listed as trace contributor is the samples where her DNA was present (not minor, but trace).

Interesting that the defense is going with "it has to be there due to touch DNA from the handshake at lunch" and they are also going with "the family must have been killed on Feb 5 in the morning", and "Joseph must have driven the trooper himself to San Ysidro". So....I am guessing they are going to tell us next that Joey never washed his hands after vigorously shaking hands with Merritt nor did he touch Summer at all after shaking hands with Merritt, and that is why CM is the minor contributor and Summer is the trace contributor.

all MOO
 
  • #425
<snip>
....

Of significance is that the DNA analysis indicates that three individuals – all males – contributed the DNA that was found on the items in the graves and the half bra found outside the graves. Those DNA profiles do not match Joseph McStay, Gianni McStay, Joseph McStay, Jr. or Charles Merritt.
It is anticipated that the prosecution might suggest that the DNA found on those items could have been contributed by three of the sheriff’s department personnel who were involved in the excavation of the graves. This, however, is controverted by the consideration that there is some crossover with regard to the DNA found on items from both graves, and that in processing the graves, the sheriff’s department assigned different personnel to carry out the excavation of each grave, and kept those personnel separate throughout the processing such that only those individuals assigned to each grave, all of whom were wearing gloves, had contact with the contents of their particularly assigned grave. Additionally, the degradation of the DNA that was found is consistent with having been buried in the earth or exposed to the elements for three-and-a-half years. DNA that would have originated with the excavation team would not have been subject to that level of degradation. The defense maintains that the DNA found on the four items is connected to the actual killers of the McStay family.

IMO, the prosecution would be foolish to imply the unknown dna belongs to anyone specific. They could be shown to be wrong. My guess is they will go with a store clerk and/or a flooring guy and/or a gas station attendant and/or a dad at the local park or all of the above, to prove it could be just about anyone’s dna. Much like the dna on JonBenet Ramsey’s underwear that could have been from the manufacturing process.
 
  • #426
So I think that provides good evidence that the family were alive when they left the house.
Not necessarily. If the bodies were all wrapped up and contained and moved quickly into a waiting vehicle, the dogs might not pick up anything outside the home

In previous cases there have been lots of discussions about what cadaver dogs need in order to pick up the scent later on. Research
I have seen says there is a minimum amount of time the body needs to be in the location and a minimum amount of time the body Ned’s to be deceased. It takes a little while for the body to create the chemicals that the dogs alert upon and the body needs to be in the location long enough to emit those smells/traces

If I had my computer I could link this for you but can’t do it well on my phone....(Grrr....computer still not fixed)
 
  • #427
It's one of the reasons that I am not convinced they were killed in the home. Well trained cadaver dogs would have alerted IMO And it wasn't just one dog, Dugal said it was 2 or 3, he couldn't remember.
We don’t know if they were well trained. Not do we know how long the bodies were deceased. It can take a little while for the bodies to create the death chemicals that the dogs are trained to alert to.

Also, if the bodies were wrapped up and moved quickly then the dogs would not alert outside, most likely.
 
  • #428
Ok I went back and listened to Jone's DNA testimony. Day 20 Part 3 at about the 43 minute mark he starts reviewing the results of the Trooper:

The steering wheel had a mixture of 3 individuals:
Joseph McStay: Major contributor
CM: Minor Contributor
SM: Trace contributor

Summer's DNA was listed as trace contributor is the samples where her DNA was present (not minor, but trace).

Interesting that the defense is going with "it has to be there due to touch DNA from the handshake at lunch" and they are also going with "the family must have been killed on Feb 5 in the morning", and "Joseph must have driven the trooper himself to San Ysidro". So....I am guessing they are going to tell us next that Joey never washed his hands after vigorously shaking hands with Merritt nor did he touch Summer at all after shaking hands with Merritt, and that is why CM is the minor contributor and Summer is the trace contributor.

all MOO
I think it is bad news for CM that he has more DNA on the steering wheel than Summer did.

Surely she has driven the Trooper a few times,or moved it around etc

Why would one handshake be a greater contributer than Summer? Surely Joey shook hands, held hands, touched Summer way more often than Chase.
 
  • #429
IMO, the prosecution would be foolish to imply the unknown dna belongs to anyone specific. They could be shown to be wrong. My guess is they will go with a store clerk and/or a flooring guy and/or a gas station attendant and/or a dad at the local park or all of the above, to prove it could be just about anyone’s dna. Much like the dna on JonBenet Ramsey’s underwear that could have been from the manufacturing process.

What stood out to me from that article was that there was cross over DNA... which means to me that DNA found on the bra was maybe also found on the cord or the red strap found in the other grave. IMO that wouldn't be able to be explained from by a store clerk, or a flooring guy. BUT... this is from the article, I don't recall hearing this in the testimony, so I'm not sure where this info came from, that's why I included it in my post ;)

This, however, is controverted by the consideration that there is some crossover with regard to the DNA found on items from both graves, and that in processing the graves, the sheriff’s department assigned different personnel to carry out the excavation of each grave, and kept those personnel separate throughout the processing such that only those individuals assigned to each grave,
 
  • #430
I think it is bad news for CM that he has more DNA on the steering wheel than Summer did.

Surely she has driven the Trooper a few times,or moved it around etc

Why would one handshake be a greater contributer than Summer? Surely Joey shook hands, held hands, touched Summer way more often than Chase.

Great conclusion.

It sure is very interesting that CMs DNA was more pronounced than Joey's own wife.
 
  • #431
Maybe Sheriff McMahon was initially correct...

Snip

Authorities identified the remains using dental records. At the time, San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon said the killings appeared to be "extremely orchestrated" and carried out by more than one person.

Suspect in McStay family killings arrested - CNN

From the article:
But after reviewing 4,500 pages of investigative records, executing 60 search warrants and conducting 200 interviews, investigators zeroed in on Merritt, concluding he had acted alone in killing the family in their own home, San Bernardino authorities said.

Also, still takes my breath away to see those photos of the family.

Mica said "Maybe Sheriff McMahon was initially correct...", which means: maybe, after all, McMahon's initial opinion turned out to be correct. Or, in other words: maybe the later conclusion, that CM acted alone in killing the family in their home, was incorrect after all.
 
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  • #432
From the article:
But after reviewing 4,500 pages of investigative records, executing 60 search warrants and conducting 200 interviews, investigators zeroed in on Merritt, concluding he had acted alone in killing the family in their own home, San Bernardino authorities said.

Also, still takes my breath away to see those photos of the family.

Does anybody recall seeing 60 search warrants?

I know what they concluded, but I wonder what made McMahon make the statement the killings appear to be “extremely orchestrated” and carried out by more than one person?



 
  • #433
What stood out to me from that article was that there was cross over DNA... which means to me that DNA found on the bra was maybe also found on the cord or the red strap found in the other grave. IMO that wouldn't be able to be explained from by a store clerk, or a flooring guy. BUT... this is from the article, I don't recall hearing this in the testimony, so I'm not sure where this info came from, that's why I included it in my post ;)

This, however, is controverted by the consideration that there is some crossover with regard to the DNA found on items from both graves, and that in processing the graves, the sheriff’s department assigned different personnel to carry out the excavation of each grave, and kept those personnel separate throughout the processing such that only those individuals assigned to each grave,
Maybe Chase shook hands with someone right before he groped Summrr and wrapped up the dead bodies?
 
  • #434
I think it is bad news for CM that he has more DNA on the steering wheel than Summer did.

Surely she has driven the Trooper a few times,or moved it around etc

Why would one handshake be a greater contributer than Summer? Surely Joey shook hands, held hands, touched Summer way more often than Chase.
I know quite a few females who've not driven their husbands vehicles, simply because they have their own vehicles. If their husbands park somewhere where it shouldn't be they are told to "MOVE IT" themselves lol. I myself have never driven my son's car and he's had it for four years now. Too big for me, I can't see over the dashboard let alone reach the peddals lol.

Regarding Joey and Summer touching one another. Well, wasn't Joey looking for a marriage counsellor? Didn't he mention it to his mother? If they were having problems in their marriage that were serious enough to seek a marriage counsellor they most probably were not showing much affection towards each other as in, touching one another affectionately. ALL MOO
 
  • #435
I know quite a few females who've not driven their husbands vehicles, simply because they have their own vehicles.
That is particularly true when you have car seats to move from one vehicle to another. SM probably only drove JM's vehicle if he was staying home with the boys and needed the vehicle with the car seats. Not to mention that from what the search warrants recovered it sounds like that vehicle would be too messy for SM. imo
 
  • #436
Ok I went back and listened to Jone's DNA testimony. Day 20 Part 3 at about the 43 minute mark he starts reviewing the results of the Trooper:

The steering wheel had a mixture of 3 individuals:
Joseph McStay: Major contributor
CM: Minor Contributor
SM: Trace contributor

Summer's DNA was listed as trace contributor is the samples where her DNA was present (not minor, but trace).

Interesting that the defense is going with "it has to be there due to touch DNA from the handshake at lunch" and they are also going with "the family must have been killed on Feb 5 in the morning", and "Joseph must have driven the trooper himself to San Ysidro". So....I am guessing they are going to tell us next that Joey never washed his hands after vigorously shaking hands with Merritt nor did he touch Summer at all after shaking hands with Merritt, and that is why CM is the minor contributor and Summer is the trace contributor.

all MOO

Well, since some believe there was a heated argument between CM and JM at the lunch, I'll go along for now and say, the two men may even have had a fist fight at or after the lunch, causing a significant amount of CM's DNA attached to JM.
 
  • #437
I think it is bad news for CM that he has more DNA on the steering wheel than Summer did.

Surely she has driven the Trooper a few times,or moved it around etc

Why would one handshake be a greater contributer than Summer? Surely Joey shook hands, held hands, touched Summer way more often than Chase.
Or maybe the hardware store guy who loaded the bags of mulch into Merritt’s truck sneezed on the carpet in there and the bodies were dragged across it during loading and unloading.

Or maybe Gianni and summer bought a candy bar on the way home that afternoon and the store clerk handed her the change and the candy bar, which she then handed to Gianni. Too bad the clerk had wiped his hand across his mouth right before they walked up to the register.

Obviously these are just ideas, but is it really that far fetched that a family would share foreign dna on their belongings? I dunno. Does it rise to some kind of doubt? I dunno that either. What I do know is it depends on what they did to achieve those results, because if only 3 or 4 loci out of 22 matched, and only when all thresholds were tossed out the window, it is all moot anyway.
IMO
 
  • #438
I know quite a few females who've not driven their husbands vehicles, simply because they have their own vehicles. If their husbands park somewhere where it shouldn't be they are told to "MOVE IT" themselves lol. I myself have never driven my son's car and he's had it for four years now. Too big for me, I can't see over the dashboard let alone reach the peddals lol.

Regarding Joey and Summer touching one another. Well, wasn't Joey looking for a marriage counsellor? Didn't he mention it to his mother? If they were having problems in their marriage that were serious enough to seek a marriage counsellor they most probably were not showing much affection towards each other as in, touching one another affectionately. ALL MOO

Weren't Joey and Summer moving the car seats around the vehicles? Weren't the toys found in the Trooper? IMO, unless they submit proof Summer did not drive the Trooper, I will have a hard time believing she did not drive the Trooper. MOO.

Also, surely Joey touched the same household items as Summer. The defense is throwing out the whole "touch DNA" story. Joey and Summer lived in the same house. I am guessing Joey would have touched the same doorknobs, refrigerator handles, hand towels, etc. MOO if the defense wants to present the (ridiculous) "touch DNA" theory, then it would apply to Summer and Joey and their household items as well.

MOO, IMO, etc etc.
 
  • #439
Well, since some believe there was a heated argument between CM and JM at the lunch, I'll go along for now and say, the two men may even have had a fist fight at or after the lunch, causing a significant amount of CM's DNA attached to JM.

BBM

And then someone else killed Joey and his whole family?
 
  • #440
Obviously these are just ideas, but is it really that far fetched that a family would share foreign dna on their belongings? I dunno. Does it rise to some kind of doubt? I dunno that either. What I do know is it depends on what they did to achieve those results, because if only 3 or 4 loci out of 22 matched, and only when all thresholds were tossed out the window, it is all moot anyway.
IMO

RSBM

BBM - but that is not what I heard in the testimony, what I heard is that 4 items DID meet the analytic threshold for the Bode lab. The judge specifically asked Ryan that question on Thursday.

other cord - 4/22
left cup black bra 9/22
red strap - 4/22
the right cup 19/22

I'm hoping we will have a better understanding after today's testimony about what exactly was sent to Cybergenetic's, if these partial's were sent to get more data or what was exactly sent. I'm sure for some it won't matter; however, after limited research, it seems like the techonology is pretty advanced and has been used in numerous trials, most of what I could find was for the prosecution. JMO
 
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